SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: WEEK 111: Pan's Labyrinth

[MusterX]

I would say of course they're connected. Ofelia is given tasks to perform and I assume they are all related. She faces the monsters that prevent her from returning to her father (or something like that), and her human world life mirrors that world with physical and institutional representations of the same monsters.

Besides, the fact that such a world even exists means magic is afoot. Any miraculous occurrence is probably part of the magic.

Ofelia fights the toad ok, she has to get a key from the toad's stomach. She needs the key from the toad's stomach to get the knife from the Pale Man's lair

The Pale Man actually appears in the toad's mouth. His fireplace isn't just the mouth of the toad, its the entire toad.

First the toad was the key, then the pale man was the key, and finally the knife was the key to the blood sacrifice. A trinity of quests ending in our intrepid explorers death.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

First the toad was the key, then the pale man was the key, and finally the knife was the key to the blood sacrifice. A trinity of quests ending in our intrepid explorers death.

I find it interesting that in the last two tasks she disobeyed but somehow still got the prize. And in task #2 I don't mean eating the grape, but rather unlocking a box different than what the fairy told her.

 

[MusterX]

I find it interesting that in the last two tasks she disobeyed but somehow still got the prize. And in task #2 I don't mean eating the grape, but rather unlocking a box different than what the fairy told her.

Hmmm, yea what was the deal with the three boxes. Ofelia said no not that one, this one and opened the one with the knife. I wonder if the other boxes contained different items.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Hmmm, yea what was the deal with the three boxes. Ofelia said no not that one, this one and opened the one with the knife. I wonder if the other boxes contained different items.

I just figured she had to choose the right one and goatboy send the fairies along to make sure she did. Then she picked against the fairy recommendation and was correct.

If all this is in her imagination then it goes along with the theme of defiance (as she's ultimately rewarded for it). If it's not, then how is it she goes against what she's told and still winds up in her own little Heaven? It would mean goatguy either had a different agenda or he didn't know what he was talking about. Surely he wanted her to get the knife though.

 

[MusterX]

I just figured she had to choose the right one and goatboy send the fairies along to make sure she did. Then she picked against the fairy recommendation and was correct.

If all this is in her imagination then it goes along with the theme of defiance (as she's ultimately rewarded for it). If it's not, then how is it she goes against what she's told and still winds up in her own little Heaven? It would mean goatguy either had a different agenda or he didn't know what he was talking about. Surely he wanted her to get the knife though.

Well, she picked her own box, which was the knife. The knife ended up being the sacrificial blade that wasn't used on the baby, but the sacrifice happened all the same because Vidal killed Ofelia. Maybe in those other boxes there wasn't a knife. Maybe it was her defiance that got her killed?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Well, she picked her own box, which was the knife. The knife ended up being the sacrificial blade that wasn't used on the baby, but the sacrifice happened all the same because Vidal killed Ofelia. Maybe in those other boxes there wasn't a knife. Maybe it was her defiance that got her killed?

Goatman didn't indicate she'd returned with the wrong item. All indications are that she did. Seems like had she listened to the fairy she would have failed.

 

[MusterX]

Goatman didn't indicate she'd returned with the wrong item. All indications are that she did. Seems like had she listened to the fairy she would have failed.

Why was Fauno such a dick? The king and queen are ruling over this fine ass kingdom in the underworld and Fauno says F you, you ate a grape so we never want to see you again. What's up with that? He didn't seem like such a nice half goat man.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Why was Fauno such a dick? The king and queen are ruling over this fine ass kingdom in the underworld and Fauno says F you, you ate a grape so we never want to see you again. What's up with that? He didn't seem like such a nice half goat man.

Yeah, I don't know. But it bothers me that she didn't listen to the fairy in task #2 and picked the correct box. Was goaty mcgoatface unintentionally wrong (by fairy proxy) or was it a set up for something else? Didn't seem like a set up since he seemed to want that knife. So why were he and tinkerbell wrong about which box to choose?

 

[MusterX]

Yeah, I don't know. But it bothers me that she didn't listen to the fairy in task #2 and picked the correct box. Was goaty mcgoatface unintentionally wrong (by fairy proxy) or was it a set up for something else? Didn't seem like a set up since he seemed to want that knife. So why were he and tinkerbell wrong about which box to choose?

I don't know unless it was a set up. What I mean by that is maybe after she ate the grape Fauno made her think he was never coming back, then when he did come back he said I'll give you one more chance but you have to do exactly as I say. So he tells her to get the baby just to see if she would do as she's told, but then she of course didn't which was the real correct choice according to Fauno. The entire sequence of what was a right choice and what was a wrong choice seems difficult to understand.

This is the one that bothers me. Would Fauno have gutted that baby if she handed it over?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I don't know unless it was a set up. What I mean by that is maybe after she ate the grape Fauno made her think he was never coming back, then when he did come back he said I'll give you one more chance but you have to do exactly as I say. So he tells her to get the baby just to see if she would do as she's told, but then she of course didn't which was the real correct choice according to Fauno. The entire sequence of what was a right choice and what was a wrong choice seems difficult to understand.

This is the one that bothers me. Would Fauno have gutted that baby if she handed it over?

Not sure what he would have done and I agree it could have been a test of some sort. But on task #2 there would be no purpose in the fairy telling her the wrong box. Why was the fairy wrong about which to pick?

 

[MusterX]

Not sure what he would have done and I agree it could have been a test of some sort. But on task #2 there would be no purpose in the fairy telling her the wrong box. Why was the fairy wrong about which to pick?

I don't know, plot hole? The more I'm in this club the more I realize that a lot of films have either glaring plot holes or outright bad writing. Its hard to notice all these things alone but when 10 other people are scrutinizing it all sorts of things get noticed.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I don't know, plot hole? The more I'm in this club the more I realize that a lot of films have either glaring plot holes or outright bad writing. Its hard to notice all these things alone but when 10 other people are scrutinizing it all sorts of things get noticed.

For sure. Maybe @Tufts can explain why tinkerbell directed little dreamer girl to put the key in the wrong box?

 

[sickc0d3r]

"We have to make sure that your spirit is intact and not become mortal." She did her own thing, refused direction when it didn't suit her, maybe recognized misdirection. She wasn't mortal.

 

[Tufts]

If all this is in her imagination then it goes along with the theme of defiance (as she's ultimately rewarded for it). If it's not, then how is it she goes against what she's told and still winds up in her own little Heaven? It would mean goatguy either had a different agenda or he didn't know what he was talking about. Surely he wanted her to get the knife though.

There seems to be a weird mix of valuing defiance and individuality. When she chose the box, she thought for herself and the end result was positive, even though she disobeyed. At the end, she also disobeyed by not providing the blood drop from her brother. In this case she followed her heart, not her instincts, and saved her brother but not herself (unless you buy that she she was saved in the magical kingdom). So the theme is disobedience to blind authority (wether it be Vidal or the faun) and following your gut/heart.

 

[Tufts]

Yeah, I don't know. But it bothers me that she didn't listen to the fairy in task #2 and picked the correct box. Was goaty mcgoatface unintentionally wrong (by fairy proxy) or was it a set up for something else? Didn't seem like a set up since he seemed to want that knife. So why were he and tinkerbell wrong about which box to choose?

Was it a test to see if she had the guts to follow her heart? And so she passed by choosing the one that felt right to her? But then the second time, they needed her to focus up and follow certain steps to succeed, and then she failed and was temporarily punished?

 

[sickc0d3r]

There seems to be a weird mix of valuing defiance and individuality. When she chose the box, she thought for herself and the end result was positive, even though she disobeyed. At the end, she also disobeyed by not providing the blood drop from her brother. In this case she followed her heart, not her instincts, and saved her brother but not herself (unless you buy that she she was saved in the magical kingdom). So the theme is disobedience to blind authority (wether it be Vidal or the faun) and following your gut/heart.

The more I consider it the more I agree with this take. The important thing wasn't what she chose, but why or how she chose. The inscription on the Labyrinth read "In your hands lies your destiny". I think Del Toro said through the tests she is learning to trust herself.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Was it a test to see if she had the guts to follow her heart? And so she passed by choosing the one that felt right to her? But then the second time, they needed her to focus up and follow certain steps to succeed, and then she failed and was temporarily punished?

Kudos for the creativity of your explanation. Not buying it though because it doesn't jive with her fucking up more than she got right (i.e. both eating and taking too long is two things and picking the right box was one). Had she shown some impeccability then I could see this as a scene that establishes something innate in her that inspires trust in the audience.

Here's another one for you. Her blood was supposedly the blood of an innocent, but she wasn't innocent. She attempted to murder stepdaddy with the drugs. Declining to turn the baby over to a knife-wielding goat-man and getting shot in the back by her intended drugging victim don't absolve her of that.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

The more I consider it the more I agree with this take. The important thing wasn't what she chose, but why or how she chose. The inscription on the Labyrinth read "In your hands lies your destiny". I think Del Toro said through the tests she is learning to trust herself.

How we should trust herself from that scene? Almost a total failure and resulted in deaths. Then she was scolded and sent packing by her ticket to the promised land, only to be gifted a second chance later. One would have to be a delusional child to gain trust in oneself there. That's a teaching moment for humility, not confidence.

 

[sickc0d3r]

How we should trust herself from that scene? Almost a total failure and resulted in deaths. Then she was scolded and sent packing by her ticket to the promised land, only to be gifted a second chance later. One would have to be a delusional child to gain trust in oneself there. That's a teaching moment for humility, not confidence.

Well she chose correctly and got the knife, didn't she? The Faun "gifted her" a second chance, but did he really? He represented nature, I don't think he really had any say in the matter. He was just pissed at her. And the fairies were steering her wrong, so they got what they deserved (By the way, was it just me or could even Nate Diaz have leg kicked that Pale Man into bolivian)?

Maybe she also needed to understand the gravity of her choices, so that they really meant something. I think eating the grape was pure defiance of Vidal, who was a glutton that rationed food to his people so they couldn't feed the rebels. She was very hungry because she was sent to bed without dinner after the toad incident ruined her dress, which her mother told her bothered Vidal the most. So, you know, fuck that guy, I'm going to eat from his table.

And yeah, I guess she had to learn humility, too, come to think of it. And sacrifice. The allegory of the immortality rose on top of the thorny mountain thingy told us "Most men are not willing to die to achieve immortality". She was preparing to sacrifice her human form to save her brother in the end.

 

[Tufts]

Kudos for the creativity of your explanation. Not buying it though because it doesn't jive with her fucking up more than she got right (i.e. both eating and taking too long is two things and picking the right box was one). Had she shown some impeccability then I could see this as a scene that establishes something innate in her that inspires trust in the audience.

Here's another one for you. Her blood was supposedly the blood of an innocent, but she wasn't innocent. She attempted to murder stepdaddy with the drugs. Declining to turn the baby over to a knife-wielding goat-man and getting shot in the back by her intended drugging victim don't absolve her of that.

With the boxes she showed some kind of magical intuition. With the grapes she reverted to being a child and giving into temptation, following a traditional fairy tale structure. She was slow looking for the key. I took that as an attempt by del Toro to build tension. There was no consistency with the sand clock thing (as in that the speed with which it emptied did not jive with the time they showed it emptying), or it could just be bad film making. There are often issues with time being stretched in these types of scenes. And again, this is a pretty young girl in a highly stressful situation. We have to give her a break. How many times would she have done something that has been timed before? An adult would have been efficient, but a child is going to be wide eyed with wonder in that situation. With the poisoning, I am not sure we can say she attempted murder. She isn't very old and I don't think that was her intent. I don't think it even crossed her mind, and it is not something she would have been capable of doing. Women do not kill easily, little girls not at all. She gave him her mother's sedative to knock him out. Had she given him the entire bottle, I might have bought that she was truly trying to harm him. She didn't, though. She was just trying to make him fall asleep, like her mother did. (There was a scene where she tried to wake her mother up earlier after she had been drugged by the doctor. I think she was hoping for the same result). He was much bigger than the mother though, so the dose she gave him was not effective. At the end was the final test where she made the moral choice to protect her brother. In a way she was guided along a journey where she had to make choices that revealed her character and her innocence. In the end, the mistakes made by her youth and innocence were forgiven, and the defiance she showed in the name of saving her brother was rewarded.