SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: WEEK 119: The Pope Of Greenwich Village

[Bullitt68]

Remember this from Talladega Nights?



Well, in Ricky Bobby terms: If you don't love The Pope of Greenwich Village then fuck you.

I'll get to your guys' oobatz shit later. First, I'm just going to run through my main thoughts.

- Growing up, this movie was like the mythical land of Atlantis, it was like a cinematic unicorn. Other than Bruce Lee movies, this is my dad's all-time favorite movie. Raising an obsessed movie nerd of a son, he'd often point me in the direction of movies he remembered liking. "You ever see Angels With Dirty Faces?" "No, Dad, what's that?" Fast-forward and I've seen 95% of James Cagney's films. "Have you ever seen Boys Town?" "No, Dad, is it good?" Fast-forward and I've seen almost everything Spencer Tracy, aka the GOAT actor not named Robert De Niro, ever did. Similarly, every once in a while, my dad would ask me if I'd seen The Pope of Greenwich Village and I'd always say no. It was never on HBO or Cinemax when I was growing up; it wasn't at any of the Blockbusters, Hollywood Videos, or Best Buys near my house; and Amazon wasn't really a thing yet. I had no options, no recourse. It was just out there, this mythical film that my dad was always talking about. Then, finally, once Amazon was a big thing and most studios had released their shit on DVD, my dad bought me The Pope of Greenwich Village and my movie life was finally whole.

- The first time I watched it, Mean Streets instantly came to mind. And, having caught Cubo's theme bug, I decided to turn this week into another theme week double-header and watched both Mean Streets and The Pope of Greenwich Village. From I Vitelloni to Mean Streets, so it goes from Mean Streets to The Pope of Greenwich Village. Mickey Rourke is the Harvey Keitel character (their characters even have the same fucking name!) and Eric Roberts is the Robert De Niro character. There are differences, of course. Keitel's Charlie is a religious nut obsessed with penance while Rourke's Charlie is just a hustler with a secular sense of honor and duty and De Niro's Johnny Boy is a self-destructive piece of human dynamite while Roberts' Paulie is an arrogant and naive goofball with delusions of grandeur. But the relationship between the two leads is virtually identical and the narrative beats are of a piece, as well. Mean Streets is the superior film for a lot of reasons, but what The Pope of Greenwich Village has over Mean Streets is charm. Keitel's Charlie is a self-righteous jackass and Johnny Boy is an insufferable tornado of chaos, but Rourke's Charlie is so cool and so slick and Roberts' Paulie is so sweet and so funny; the two leads in Mean Streets can go fuck themselves, but the two leads in The Pope of Greenwich Village, you can't help rooting for them, even liking them. At least, I can't.

- The performances. Fucking hell, man. First off, Mickey Rourke is the fucking man. If Steve McQueen is the King of Cool, Mickey Rourke is the Prince of Cool, the heir apparent. What I love about him in this movie, though, is that he manages - better than in any other film of his until The Wrestler - to really tap into his emotional vulnerability, even emotional frailty (which, BTW, is also very McQueen). That creates this wonderful dynamic whereby you can see, analogous to the way that he fetishizes his ritual of dressing the part, the way that he "wears" his coolness to cover his vulnerability. It's all he's got. He's not brave enough or strong enough to confront himself, he refuses to strengthen his weaknesses and overcome his flaws; instead, he just puts on his sunglasses, slicks his hair back, smiles that wickedly cool smile, and keeps on going. It's no kind of life for any sane person, but it's all he knows and it's all he wants to know. My favorite moment in the film from him is when Daryl Hannah is slapping him and he tells her to slap him again to see if it changes him. And then he just puts on those sunglasses and walks away. That's Charlie in a nutshell. And it's Rourke at his best.

- For as incredible as Rourke was, though, this is the Eric Roberts show. I can't adequately express how much I love what Roberts did with this character. Just the intro to the character, with him dancing in front of the mirror in the bathroom. How do you not fall in love with the character immediately? That's not to say that he's not frustrating. Forget about not playing the long game, he literally can't see past the end of his fucking nose. And he can't think for more than five consecutive seconds. But man is he fun to watch. And, more importantly, to listen to. The lines and the way that he delivers them, I could quote the whole fucking movie but I'll just pick out my favorites.

1) "The champion gene." The way he says that line and then the goofy little head shake, I always rewind that one. "Jism" gets a laugh but "the champion gene" is my favorite part of that scene. And, of course, it's hilarious watching him put that ludicrous sandwich together while he's talking.

2) "This guy's selling instant hepatitis here." That's a great line in and of itself, but I love the context, how he just runs up and says that ostensibly right in front of the dude selling it.

3) "I took 500 from shylocks, Pop, to see Sinatra at the Garden. Sat two seats away from Tony Bennett. That's success, Pop." It's quite an achievement to say the most pathetic line in a manner befitting the most profound line. This is Paulie's philosophy of life, it's the core of his being, and, just like he is, it's utterly insane.

4) "Murder rap? Nobody came within 20 feet of that yo-yo. He dived into that hole like a fucking gopher." In addition to the concept of responsibility inspiring Paulie's most vitriolic responses, I love how indignant he is with regards to the stupidity of "that yo-yo."

5) "You get your coat on fast and you don't say goodnight to nobody!" This is easily my favorite line. The way he hits the word "nobody," it's gold, Jerry. I've never made it through a viewing of this movie without rewinding that line at least three or four times.

6) Lastly, I love the way he says the wrong words or mispronounces words. "Artificial inspiration," "yuck," and "visser." Yet he always plays it off like he's the smartest guy in the room and it's your mistake.

Roberts' Paulie doesn't have the wild and crazy threat of violence that De Niro's Johnny Boy had. He's more child-like. There's an innocence and a sweetness to him. It's really a marvelous acting showcase. One of my favorite characters of all-time. And, in case you mooks have never seen this glorious medley of impressions, check out Dice doing, among other impressions, the best Paulie you'll ever see.



"No, I don't got no fuckin' marshmallows!" <45>

Anyway, I could rant about this movie for a hell of a lot longer but I'll leave it at that and turn to what you mamalukes had to say.

To me this one's at best so-so.

Say it ain't so-so, Cubo. The Pope of Greenwich Village rules. What are you, stunad?

Not sure when Roberts is supposed to be dramatic and when I'm supposed to laugh.

That's the beauty of it. A lot of the film's comedy is in the Scorsese/Tarantino vein. I think it was Tarantino himself who said that he liked the fact that if you left a tape recorder in the theater and listened to the audience reactions while watching Reservoir Dogs you'd think they were watching a comedy. The Pope of Greenwich Village is like that. Whether your responses to Paulie's lines and antics are anger, chagrin, confusion, what have you, there's also invariably a desire to laugh because he's just such a fucking goof.

The ending was almost slapstick and didn't really resolve much. We're to just assume Burt bites the big one and nobody else comes collecting?

I've always assumed that the Bed Bug is no more. That shit that he drank would've scorched his throat all the way down and dissolved his insides. Even if he survived, though, he'd have been out of commission for a while if not permanently. As for a lack of resolution, what did you feel needed to be resolved? I think the ending is perfectly in step with the film and the characters: Charlie plans shit out to play the long game, Paulie hatches a crazy quick scheme, and they bicker about it. That's the movie from beginning to end.

And, to go back to Mean Streets again, the endings are very similar as far as "resolving" shit goes, but The Pope of Greenwich Village is actually more coherent and more consistent with its ending IMO.

I wouldn't call it boring, but I can't think of any reason I'd ever recommend it to someone.

Damn, I thought this would be on Amazon Prime, but it is not. YouTube version seems unwatchable.

Does any streaming service in Europe have Pope btw?

I'm in the UK and it's on Netflix.

I have to steal to Simpsons reference before that scoundrel muntjac gets to it first

I don't like the show, but I obviously love this moment from American Dad:

Yeah I really liked this movie!

Good to get with the ethnics

I had a friend growing up, an Italian kid with a super Italian father. I let him borrow The Pope of Greenwich Village when we were in high school and I loved his review. He said that it's "the most Italian movie ever made" and that it made him want to say "Capisce?" after every sentence

Funniest part was Paulie talking about horse cock while preparing a baguet.

I prefer his relationship philosophy with the punching bag, but then there are so many choices.

Ah yes, aerobics. Instant 80's eroticism in a movie. I miss when they would just randomly insert that. Like in Wargames, when Broody calls his girlfriend, and she's all sweaty and panting from a stretching-routine

The 80's was the pinnacle of humanity for so many reasons, but random aerobics is in the top ten.

I can't find a clip of it, but my favorite is Héctor Elizondo chasing Johnny Depp and Rob Morrow through the hotel in Private Resort and ending up in an aerobics class with some She-Hulk who fucks up Elizando's back.

Second best scene of the movie. Geraldine Page acted her heart out there.

When I was a youngin, I'd always fast-forward through everything that wasn't Charlie and Paulie. But yeah, that's a great character and she crushes that scene.

Maybe I don't want to change...

That was the best scene in the movie for me, the linchpin that tied it together. It brought to the surface the protagonists underlying characteristics and motivations. Charlie wants to remain tribal, even if it damns him. It's habitus, that feeling of belonging -- being stuck even -- to some group in society, and for Charlie it's very intrinsic.

Charlie wants it both ways. He wants Paulie and he wants Diane. But they're from two different worlds, not compatible. There are too many clashes for things to fit. WASP Diane probably represents his wish to be a big shot, to own a restaurant.

But when he has to choose, he chooses Paulie and his tribe. I think this is underscored through the narrative. Charlie seems more affectionate towards Paulie than he does Diane (even though he has great affection for her too). When Diane becomes livid, sheds tears before his face, and eventually slaps him in rage, he responds by smirking sardonically. Paulie he might get angry at, but when Paulie sheds tears in front of him (when his thumb got cut off), Charlie sheds tears back. There is an intimacy between them that's based on common-ground that doesn't exist with Diane. Charlie takes out his bitterness on Diane piecemeal, offhandedly throwing out insults like "you can't cook" at her. But Paulie? Paulie he has lived with his entire life, the kids wrongness is second nature to him, just having him around feels natural. No matter how insulting Paulie gets or how much he fucks up, they're on common-ground, tied-together. No sardonic smiles for him.

I'm with you on all of this, but I'd add that there's more going on in Charlie than just tribal loyalty. The "maybe I don't want to change" line hits on the fact that it's less him being stuck and more of him not wanting to move. He is who he is because he doesn't want to change, and he is where he is in life because he doesn't want to be/go anywhere else. He likes to think he does - which separates him from Keitel's Charlie, for whom it'd be more accurate to describe as stuck - in a way that's reminiscent of Jamie Foxx's "Island Limos" obsession in Collateral which serves merely as a self-deceiving, pacifying fantasy, but if he really wanted to change, if he really wanted to get out, he would. But he doesn't...because he doesn't.

On this front, I lose respect for the character. I have no respect for people who know that they're their own worst enemy and refuse to take the necessary steps to fix that. Paulie I have sympathy for because he doesn't know any better. Charlie does. That makes him worse in my book.

Speaking about Paulie, man what an ugly animal. He's obsessed about status like some psychopath, completely materialistic save for whatever (bendable) tribal loyalties has been rubbed into him.

See, I'm not as hard on Paulie. De Niro's Johnny Boy, that's an "ugly animal." I'd never describe Paulie that way, though. He's just a misguided jackass. The two scenes at the toll booths remind me a lot of George Costanza.





Paulie wants to be a big shot, he loves to play the part, but he doesn't have the smarts or the chops to be a big shot, so he's always acting. He doesn't have the stuff to pull it off or the intelligence to know that he doesn't have the stuff, so he just acts it out under the misguided assumption that doing it - without being it - is enough (hence the line to his dad about success not being about earning and instead being about "how you spend it").

Frankly, I thought the worst part was the ending. Paulie has just fucked up... again. Bed Bug Eddie is going to shit concrete for hours -- but revenge is undoubtedly coming. But Charlie acts completely cool about it. He has no outbursts or outrages, despite probably having been handed a death-sentence that not even his tape can save him from. Where's the climax here? It feels like we're being driven towards an inevitable endpoint, a cataclysm of all their decisions. What about the consequences? But no, just smile about it. Is it all just some galactic joke? Does it all really just fix itself, like Charlie mumbled? I wanted grimness and consequences, damit!!!

I already discussed the ending, but, to the portion that I highlighted here, I think that Charlie not blowing up (like he did after he learned that Paulie gave him up) is because he'd made peace with the fact that he was in the Bed Bug's crosshairs and he'd armed himself with the tape. Even if the Bed Bug were to come after him, so what? It's just like he said: He's got the tape to put him away. That's not to say that his play would work, but the point is that Charlie thinks he's got a play, he thinks he's got the upper hand, so, from his point of view, there's no need to be outraged. He's irritated that Paulie fucked up his elegant plan, but he's still the pope of Greenwich Village

And Bugs is going to be revenged so they're still not out of the shit.

Says who? Maybe it's that I rewatched A Bronx Tale a little while back, but you could just as easily take a Sonny "nobody cares" stance. After all, in mob dollars, they didn't get away with a whole hell of a lot of money. Sure, Eddie's ego took a hit, but if the Bed Bug buys it, the power plays that'd commence and the solidifying of power that'd follow the successful power play wouldn't likely lead to the new boss turning his interest back to two neighborhood mooks who made off with some of Eddie's loose change. Plus, you have to figure that Paulie's "uncle" would move up in the ranks, and with crazy Eddie out of the picture, maybe he'd have the juice to cool any heat on Paulie and, by extension, on Charlie.

It makes no sense to me that Burt pulls the info about Mickey out of Eric and then apparently just sits on it while those two have a good time out at the track and then the bar.

He doesn't sit on it. It's quick, but when they're at the track, Paulie notices two of Eddie's goons staking the place out so he takes Charlie to a different spot. The Bed Bug's crew is on the street looking for Charlie. They just don't find him.

Opening song is rad. Love it.

I worked for four years as a banquet server at a country club. At any function, in any context, if that song was playing, I'd not only think of The Pope of Greenwich Village and smile, I'd literally be taken over by the spirit of the film and I'd have to subtly do my own little Rourke shuffle

I really thought Charlie was going to punch Paulie when he said 'what do you need a suit for, you don't got no job' for a second time.

My dad does a wicked Eric Roberts impression and that's the line he always does.

Fat gangster had a cool way of eating cantaloupe with a knife. Definitely stealing that.

Never noticed this before, but I read this post of yours before I rewatched it and I noticed it this time

They just walk off into more dumb decisions I suppose?

Burt Young was very convincing as a tough guy. Legitimately intimidating when he was the sit down with Eric Roberts.

My favorite moment of his is after Charlie delivers the pope of Greenwich Village line. It's entirely possible that the Bed Bug had literally never heard anyone talk to him like that or act so devoid of fear in his presence, and after Charlie tells him that he's the pope and leans back in his chair, the Bed Bug's eyes...fuck, man, you can see the crazy. Those are two of the wildest eyes I've ever seen.

Mickey Rourke was a great actor that just never picked a great movie to be in during the entire 1980s.

europe and MusterX already pointed out Angel Heart, but what about Body Heat, Diner, 9 1/2 Weeks, and Barfly? Angel Heart is the only film in the bunch that's among the GOAT, IMO, but he was in several 80s classics. What are you talking about when you're talking about "a great movie"? And why don't these qualify?

It's decent. It's certainly not great. I'd probably rather rewatch Johnny Handsome.

Came out of nowhere. Turns around and falls down an elevator shaft. Almost darkly funny how out of left-field it is.

You're probably the only one in here who'll get this, but it's shades of Agnes Moorehead, no?

Charlie tells Baron Harkonnen than he and Paulie are only cousins, then he says, only 3rd cousins, as if to say they aren't even that close but in reality they walk arm and arm like they are married.

The third cousins line was to emphasize to Barney that it wasn't a strong enough bond to keep Paulie from ratting him out. And more important than that line is Barney's response about how, in the Irish world, that's like brothers. That conveys at once Charlie's loyalty to Paulie and the fact that there doesn't exist a strong enough bond to keep Paulie from turning rat to save his own ass.

I can't find the scene but at one point Charlie and Paulie are crossing the street and Paulie is literally on Charlie's arm like they are a married couple.

That actually happens twice. After the stickball scene when they're crossing the street Paulie's got Charlie's arm. Then, after Charlie drops his son off at his ex's and starts walking away, Paulie follows and latches right onto that arm.

To me, what that signifies is less their relationship (I don't get a "married couple" vibe) and more Paulie's neediness and insecurity. He literally clings to Charlie. He's like Uncle Leo.



"He's always grabbing my arm when he talks to me. I guess it's because so many people have left in the middle of the conversation."

One of the best lines of the film, we all let life happen to us.

Speak for yourself. I make my life happen.

I definitely got a gay vibe this time around.

Oh yeah, the tight ass pants, the S&M talk. He's a very fruity individual. Charlie even cuts him off and tells him he's "starting to sound like half a f-g"

I came to say this, but you were faster than a bullitt. Oh, and you posted it three days ago. It's hard to think about Mean Streets without hearing that Rubber Biscuit song playing in my head.

For me, Mean Streets is all about "Be My Baby."

I wanted to see things come to a head.

What do you think about the Mean Streets connection with the ending? There's no real payoff, nothing really comes to a head, and there's no real resolution at the end of Mean Streets, either. Or is there?

Who doesn't like a good dummy fall?

Here's a favorite of mine from a John Stamos/Gene Simmons (yes, you read that right) movie called Never Too Young To Die. (Waits to see if Europe1 has seen this.)

Off the top of my head, my favorite is from Roger Corman's Day the World Ended.



I've got the scene cued up. It's even better in the proper context. I saw this movie at the fifth Sci-Fi Spectacular! at The Music Box in Chicago. On the big screen, in a packed house of movie geeks, the place fucking erupted in laughter at that drop off the cliff

Every line he belts out like he spent the night before hopped up on meth, practicing in front of a mirror until he landed on the exact inflection of every syllable, and the perfect face contorting emotion, and then passed out on his perm, wearing nothing but a Member's Only jacket and Darryl Hannah's sweaty leotard.

Aka the real method acting

 

[BisexualMMA]

europe and MusterX already pointed out Angel Heart, but what about Body Heat, Diner, 9 1/2 Weeks, and Barfly? Angel Heart is the only film in the bunch that's among the GOAT, IMO, but he was in several 80s classics. What are you talking about when you're talking about "a great movie"? And why don't these qualify?

I'll have to come back to the others, but as to Diner, I wouldn't even really call it a good movie. Nobody was good in it except for Rourke, and his performance actually seemed out of place as a result, as if HE were the one that didn't get the memo. I wouldn't call the script anything particularly memorable either. It's only real successes were Rourke's performance and a good sense of time and atmosphere.

 

[Bullitt68]

I'll have to come back to the others, but as to Diner, I wouldn't even really call it a good movie. Nobody was good in it except for Rourke, and his performance actually seemed out of place as a result, as if HE were the one that didn't get the memo. I wouldn't call the script anything particularly memorable either. It's only successes were Rourke's performance and a good sense of time and atmosphere.

Well I haven't seen Diner in probably 15 years, so I'm not in a position to defend it. I was just curious to hear what you thought in greater detail. For the others, I think Barfly is the closest to Angel Heart (though still a ways off, mind you). A larger point worth making, though, is that I think that a lot of the films that Rourke was in during that era were acting-heavy films. So, if you're looking for the most intricate and nuanced scripts or the most bravura filmmaking, you won't find that in those films, in which case I can see why someone would be none too impressed with them.

Still, I actually think you could argue that Rourke's run in the 80s is comparable to, if not on average a little better than, De Niro's run that same decade (and certainly way out in front of Al Pacino's weak 80s run). Rourke didn't have a Raging Bull or a Once Upon a Time in America elevating him to the top of the GOAT list, but he also didn't have a Falling in Love or a Jacknife weighing him down (then again, I've never seen Francesco, which appears to have the makings of a dud ).

 

[BisexualMMA]

Well I haven't seen Diner in probably 15 years, so I'm not in a position to defend it. I was just curious to hear what you thought in greater detail. For the others, I think Barfly is the closest to Angel Heart (though still a ways off, mind you). A larger point worth making, though, is that I think that a lot of the films that Rourke was in during that era were acting-heavy films. So, if you're looking for the most intricate and nuanced scripts or the most bravura filmmaking, you won't find that in those films, in which case I can see why someone would be none too impressed with them.

Still, I actually think you could argue that Rourke's run in the 80s is comparable to, if not on average a little better than, De Niro's run that same decade (and certainly way out in front of Al Pacino's weak 80s run). Rourke didn't have a Raging Bull or a Once Upon a Time in America elevating him to the top of the GOAT list, but he also didn't have a Falling in Love or a Jacknife weighing him down (then again, I've never seen Francesco, which appears to have the makings of a dud ).

I would say Scarface alone arguably puts Pacino's 80s above Rourke's cumulative 80s work. Though he did nothing else truly notable in that decade, and took half the decade off after Revolution.

Rourke certainly had his dogs in the 80s as well. Semi-dogs like Heaven's Gate and Eureka, and though it was technically 1990, Desperate Hours is one of the worst films ever made.

Rourke's 80s weren't BAD. I don't think he made any great films, but he made several watchable or decent ones. I just see it as a decade of what could have been. A talent like that who just didn't get a chance to employ his abilities in any of the decade's great films (in my opinion). It's sad that, at least in my mind, we had to wait until The Wrestler for a leading role and movie that can stand the test of time.

Something like Platoon or Wall Street or Rain Man just never came his way.

 

[Yotsuya]

I'm in the UK and it's on Netflix.

Not in Finland.

 

[Bullitt68]

I would say Scarface alone arguably puts Pacino's 80s above Rourke's cumulative 80s work.

I've been (re)watching a lot of shit lately, and I've been working my way through De Niro's, Pacino's, and Jack Nicholson's stuff, both finally getting around to stuff that I'd never seen and rewatching stuff I hadn't seen in years. I recently rewatched Scarface, and dude, that movie's rough. I've always thought it was overrated, but that's just not a very good movie (not all that surprising considering Brian De Palma tends to make shitty stuff). It has its moments (in three hours, it better have at least a few moments), but anyone who even lets that movie hang out around The Godfather and The Godfather II, Once Upon a Time in America, Goodfellas, Casino, etc., is out of their mind.

Forget about Rourke's entire 80s run going up against it, Angel Heart alone fucking Zulus Scarface in a head-to-head.

Desperate Hours is one of the worst films ever made.

I only saw it once and I don't remember much but I certainly don't remember hating it to the point where I'd call it one of the worst films ever made

I just see it as a decade of what could have been. A talent like that who just didn't get a chance to employ his abilities in any of the decade's great films (in my opinion). It's sad that, at least in my mind, we had to wait until The Wrestler for a leading role and movie that can stand the test of time.

Something like Platoon or Wall Street or Rain Man just never came his way.

I'm with you on this. Though, for a bit of trivia, he actually turned down both Dafoe's role in Platoon and Cruise's role in Rain Man. Rourke's notorious for having turned down a lot of shit, so it's possible people are tacking shit on to the list, but he apparently turned down those two roles plus roles in Beverly Hills Cop, The Untouchables, The Silence of the Lambs, and Pulp Fiction (he could've been Butch!) among others.

You're right about the "what could have been" thing, but it's specifically "what could have been...if Rourke wasn't such a fucking headcase"

 

[BisexualMMA]

I've been (re)watching a lot of shit lately, and I've been working my way through De Niro's, Pacino's, and Jack Nicholson's stuff, both finally getting around to stuff that I'd never seen and rewatching stuff I hadn't seen in years. I recently rewatched Scarface, and dude, that movie's rough. I've always thought it was overrated, but that's just not a very good movie (not all that surprising considering Brian De Palma tends to make shitty stuff). It has its moments (in three hours, it better have at least a few moments), but anyone who even lets that movie hang out around The Godfather and The Godfather II, Once Upon a Time in America, Goodfellas, Casino, etc., is out of their mind.

Forget about Rourke's entire 80s run going up against it, Angel Heart alone fucking Zulus Scarface in a head-to-head.

I think Scarface holds up great. De Palma has certainly made some stinky doo, but Scarface, Carlito's Way and Carrie are all excellent in my opinion.

 

[europe1]

Other than Bruce Lee movies, this is my dad's all-time favorite movie

Cloning! Of course! The Martians are way ahead of us in technology...

- The performances. Fucking hell, man. First off, Mickey Rourke is the fucking man. If Steve McQueen is the King of Cool, Mickey Rourke is the Prince of Cool, the heir apparent. What I love about him in this movie, though, is that he manages - better than in any other film of his until The Wrestler - to really tap into his emotional vulnerability, even emotional frailty (which, BTW, is also very McQueen). That creates this wonderful dynamic whereby you can see, analogous to the way that he fetishizes his ritual of dressing the part, the way that he "wears" his coolness to cover his vulnerability.

1) "The champion gene." The way he says that line and then the goofy little head shake, I always rewind that one. "Jism" gets a laugh but "the champion gene" is my favorite part of that scene. And, of course, it's hilarious watching him put that ludicrous sandwich together while he's talking.

"I took 500 from shylocks, Pop,

Mafiosos take a thumb.

Shylocks take a pound of flesh

Paulie is in deep shit.

He's more child-like. There's an innocence and a sweetness to him

Not sure about that word sweet. I mean, he clearly wants his money so that he can dominate his surroundings.

Whether your responses to Paulie's lines and antics are anger, chagrin, confusion, what have you, there's also invariably a desire to laugh because he's just such a fucking goof.

Yeah, it's not like people who are intensely emotional cannot easily become rather comedic in their spurs of drama.

I've always assumed that the Bed Bug is no more. That shit that he drank would've scorched his throat all the way down and dissolved his insides

I am by no means a Mithridates when it comes to poisons, but checking up lye on wikipedia, it reads as rather uncertain of what damages it can make. It says that it's harmful -- but can even be fatal -- if ingested. But in the movie, maybe we're just supposed to intuit that Bed Bug dies? But in that case, why not just show him die?

I think the ending is perfectly in step with the film and the characters: Charlie plans shit out to play the long game, Paulie hatches a crazy quick scheme, and they bicker about it. That's the movie from beginning to end.

I think the problem many people are feeling is that it seems like it robs the movie of an finality or climax. Bed Bugs fate is unsure. And they're so blase about it all. The "feeling" of an ending, isn't there.

I'm in the UK and it's on Netflix.

Every nation gets it's on Netflix library.

Sweden's is incredibly poor -- especially for anything pre-this milenium.

"the most Italian movie ever made"

I just assumed that was Ugly, Dirty and Bad.

And, to go back to Mean Streets again, the endings are very similar as far as "resolving" shit goes, but The Pope of Greenwich Village is actually more coherent and more consistent with its ending IMO.

Was a long time since I saw Mean Streets, but here goes.

Yeah, De Niro and Keitel aren't out of the shit in Mean Streets, but in there I think there is more a sense of a climax having occurred. Keitel reaches the apex of his religious machinations when he straight out starts talking to God in the car and everyone mocks him for it (my favorite part). Then they get shot at, take bullet-wounds, and crash. Cue a great scene of the ambulance picking them up one-by-one. At least there is a sense of physicality to it all -- like the've endured something the film was building towards. Everyone here seems to think them just walking into the sunset feels rather incongrious with all the danger and tension they've been living under.

I can't find a clip of it, but my favorite is Héctor Elizondo chasing Johnny Depp and Rob Morrow through the hotel in Private Resort and ending up in an aerobics class with some She-Hulk who fucks up Elizando's back.

Only thing I remember about that movie was thinking it's pretty terrible.

When I was a youngin, I'd always fast-forward through everything that wasn't Charlie and Paulie

So you treated these movies like most youngins today threat the Marvel films

but if he really wanted to change, if he really wanted to get out, he would. But he doesn't...because he doesn't.

Interestingly enough, I found myself instantly doubting that about him. He claims to not want to change (thus being able to do so if he wished). But considering how deeply emotionally invested he seems in Paulie -- I wonder if he truly could do that.

See, I'm not as hard on Paulie. De Niro's Johnny Boy, that's an "ugly animal."

When I think about human animals, I think more:

* no long-term planning skills
* base desires (status, sex, materialism -- all in a very gratuitous manner)
* volatile temper
* Inability to understand other people or situations

Even if the Bed Bug were to come after him, so what? It's just like he said: He's got the tape to put him away.

Hmm... considering Beg Bug's pain and humiliation, I would wager that the guy would go into berserker mode if he survived, making him even more dangerous and volatile in the future. After all, he was already considering killing Charlie despite the tape.

Says who? Maybe it's that I rewatched A Bronx Tale a little while back, but you could just as easily take a Sonny "nobody cares" stance. After all, in mob dollars, they didn't get away with a whole hell of a lot of money. Sure, Eddie's ego took a hit, but if the Bed Bug buys it, the power plays that'd commence and the solidifying of power that'd follow the successful power play wouldn't likely lead to the new boss turning his interest back to two neighborhood mooks who made off with some of Eddie's loose change. Plus, you have to figure that Paulie's "uncle" would move up in the ranks, and with crazy Eddie out of the picture, maybe he'd have the juice to cool any heat on Paulie and, by extension, on Charlie.

The movie doesn't play up -- or hint towards -- any of these implications though. The tone and focus really is on a rather light-hearted "Life just goes on", with much being left uncertain. I get the indication that that's how the director wanted to go with it. (which, IMO, unfufilling decision)

My favorite moment of his is after Charlie delivers the pope of Greenwich Village line. It's entirely possible that the Bed Bug had literally never heard anyone talk to him like that or act so devoid of fear in his presence, and after Charlie tells him that he's the pope and leans back in his chair, the Bed Bug's eyes...fuck, man, you can see the crazy. Those are two of the wildest eyes I've ever seen.

Yeah it's like right before shooting they told him about the robot that was going to be in Rocky 4!

You're probably the only one in here who'll get this, but it's shades of Agnes Moorehead, no?

Yeah. But it's even funnier in Dark Passage. With the cop, the whole thing was a mistake. Agnes just decided to commit suicide in a fit of madness.

Off the top of my head, my favorite is from Roger Corman's Day the World Ended.

Solid Corman film. Always interesting to see post-apocalypse films from the pre-Mad Max days.

Still, I actually think you could argue that Rourke's run in the 80s is comparable to, if not on average a little better than, De Niro's run that same decade (and certainly way out in front of Al Pacino's weak 80s run)

(and certainly way out in front of Al Pacino's weak 80s run).

Oh come on, Revolution didn't suck that badly. Cruising and Scarface is still something to stand on.

And wow did Pacino do few roles in the 80s. The only other films were Sea of Love and Author, Author

I recently rewatched Scarface, and dude, that movie's rough. I've always thought it was overrated, but that's just not a very good movie

(not all that surprising considering Brian De Palma tends to make shitty stuff).

Nexy you'll probably snort a lot of coke and trash Carlito's Way to.

 

[Coolthulu]

Remember this from Talladega Nights?



Well, in Ricky Bobby terms: If you don't love The Pope of Greenwich Village then fuck you.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

"No, I don't got no fuckin' marshmallows!" 45

First thing I thought of this week was the Diceman Cometh.

Say it ain't so-so, Cubo. The Pope of Greenwich Village rules. What are you, stunad?

You sure make the film sound charming but I just don't really like the characters. I'll give Roberts props for being colorful and memorable.

Tarantino himself who said that he liked the fact that if you left a tape recorder in the theater and listened to the audience reactions while watching Reservoir Dogs you'd think they were watching a comedy.

It wasn't a comedy? With Dogs I was pretty sure I was laughing in the right places. With Pope not so much. But who knows.

I've always assumed that the Bed Bug is no more. That shit that he drank would've scorched his throat all the way down and dissolved his insides. Even if he survived, though, he'd have been out of commission for a while if not permanently. As for a lack of resolution, what did you feel needed to be resolved? I think the ending is perfectly in step with the film and the characters: Charlie plans shit out to play the long game, Paulie hatches a crazy quick scheme, and they bicker about it. That's the movie from beginning to end.

In spite of your theories on how nobody will necessarily come looking for the money or avenge (a presumed dead) Eddie, I'm not all that satisfied.

He doesn't sit on it. It's quick, but when they're at the track, Paulie notices two of Eddie's goons staking the place out so he takes Charlie to a different spot. The Bed Bug's crew is on the street looking for Charlie. They just don't find him.

Maybe. Seems like at the very least they'd have followed Paulie. Or had Paulie lure him somewhere.

I recently rewatched Scarface, and dude, that movie's rough.

While being a highlight of my youth, I have to agree. Scarface has not aged very well. One of the only movies that when I first watched I immediately rewatched. Unlike Pope, I'd still recommend it.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

How can I not enjoy Pope of Greenwich Village? I mean, it's Vincent Chase's favorite movie.

I'm going to make this very difficult when writing about this film, and here's why: When I am referring to Paulie, I am actually talking about Bed Bug Eddie, played by Burt Young who was famous for the character Paulie from the Rocky films, and not Eric Roberts's character Paulie.

First question - what is it with 80s movies (and music videos) showing a guy zipping up his fly when getting ready for the day? I swear, I see that all the time in them, and I don't know why, unless it's an implied sexual thing that is lost on me.

I'd like to echo something. Mickey Rourke could have been one of the greatest actors of all time, but he just never seemed to pick the right movie to be a part of. I would say that he has made otherwise not great movies into good ones. Think about 9 1/2 Weeks. Horrible, horrible movie, but he (and not Kim Basinger) made it tolerable. The only decent part of that movie he made with Tupac was his performance. Think about that famous scene from The Expendables, arguably the only scene where there was any acting in the entire film.

Who plays baseball/stickball in a suit? Apparently that entire group of guys, I guess.

I don't know if there is a single villain of this film. I know the antagonist is supposed to be Paulie, but they did start things with the mob by accidentally robbing his guy. Couple that with Eric Roberts getting fired for skimming checks at that restaurant, and then setting up that heist, shot the cop, and is a complete whiner and instigator and crybaby (wishing people dead all the time), and then turning on Harkonnen and Rourke. He's probably the worst of them all.

Meanwhile, Rourke is not great to his pregnant girlfriend, and goes along with the heist, but at least he's self-conscious about it all? When it came to Darryl Hannah, he seemed to know it was better to walk away since he's not going to change for her. While yes, it's not good he walked away his pregnant girlfriend, I don't think he was ever dishonest with her. Sure, he wasn't a great guy, and she was most likely right for leaving him, but she also knew he wasn't going to change and that her baby needed a more stable environment.

This film definitely carries on the trend we've had lately of morally ambiguous/criminal protagonists, with Over the Edge and Convoy, and now this. Can we root for anyone? Should we? That's the question I've asked time and time again, about unreliable or criminal protagonists. Do we have to root for a character in every film we watch? I have always advocated for the stance that we do, that we subconsciously attempt to identify with one character over another wherever possible (Manborg notwithstanding).

Everyone has a scene of their own where they excel. It's like the director said "ok, you get one monologue or scene to shine." The scene where the cop's mother is smoking and talking to the cop before he goes and gets taken out, she was just great. You could hear the pain and sorrow in her voice, wishing things were different and being worried about her son. It kind of came out of nowhere, but it was just great. It was one of those foreshadowing "goodbye" scenes where we can tell this is a character's last moments. "I'm so close to retirement..." DEAD.

I'm always happy to see M Emmett Walsh, he's such an underrated talent. Remember his performance in Blood Simple as the crazy PI?

That workout scene reminded a lot of us of Aerobicide, and I'm happy we picked up on it. I agree, it's easily the best aerobics movie, I'm surprised someone hasn't posted that famous gif from it. You know the one.

Also like several others, the ending bothered me. Eric Roberts poured lye in Paulie's coffee, which isn't always fatal and could be just very painful. It was another terrible decision after a series of bad decisions starting from skimming checks and ending with him offing a mob boss. Did they think they'd be able to just walk off into the sunset? You know they're marked men. Who else would be gunning for a mob boss besides a guy whose thumb the boss just cut off? I mean, they took his thumb, Charlie.

7.5/10. Always a fun watch, even if it's way more about the acting than it is about the actual plot. Really, what's the plot in a nutshell? Two guys (who are supposedly cousins but I never really got that) get involved in a heist and steal from a mob boss, who finds out they robbed him and the two guys try to get out of it.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

Also, in honor of this week's movie, I made a shoop in the shoop thread from Bellator 204 that the main site put up.

 

[europe1]

Also, in honor of this week's movie, I made a shoop in the shoop thread from Bellator 204 that the main site put up.

View attachment 423651

"They took me thumb, Conur! They took me thumb!"<45>

 

[JayPettryMMA]

"They took me thumb, Conur! They took me thumb!"<45>

For a brief moment I thought about putting Conor's head in there, but the angle was tricky. I still might.

 

[MusterX]

- The performances. Fucking hell, man. First off, Mickey Rourke is the fucking man. If Steve McQueen is the King of Cool, Mickey Rourke is the Prince of Cool, the heir apparent. What I love about him in this movie, though, is that he manages - better than in any other film of his until The Wrestler - to really tap into his emotional vulnerability, even emotional frailty

Mickey Rourke, to me, always seems to play flawed characters that are emotionally frail. His "I know who I am" reveal in Angel Heart always sticks with me. Obviously in The Wrestler his flaws are more fleshed out and examined but the reveal at the end of Angel Heart puts Rourke's talents on full display.

He's not brave enough or strong enough to confront himself, he refuses to strengthen his weaknesses and overcome his flaws; instead, he just puts on his sunglasses, slicks his hair back, smiles that wickedly cool smile, and keeps on going. It's no kind of life for any sane person, but it's all he knows and it's all he wants to know.

How many people really live like that? Just put on a brave smile and march onward? It reminds me of the famous Henry David Thoreau quote, “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.” I don't know what is worse, leading a life of quiet desperation, or thinking you don't when you really do. Charlie and Paulie are both desperate to escape their low rent lives and make it big. We've seen this plot line play out over and over in innumerable films and books. If the 80's had it in The Pope of Greenwich Village, the 90's had it in Boys in the Hood. My English professors in college used to harp on the idea that there are something like 7 or 8 basic story lines and that is all there is, each writer is simply recycling them and "making them their own."

My favorite moment in the film from him is when Daryl Hannah is slapping him and he tells her to slap him again to see if it changes him. And then he just puts on those sunglasses and walks away. That's Charlie in a nutshell. And it's Rourke at his best.

Those were some real slaps to. She was slapping the shit out of him, that or its one of the best fake slap scenes I've ever seen.

- For as incredible as Rourke was, though, this is the Eric Roberts show. I can't adequately express how much I love what Roberts did with this character.

Roberts always had a good cry face and a cracking voice to go with it. The scene where his uncle catches up with him is a good example. He is able to do fear well but Paulie's true feelings always come out. He tells his uncle, I took money from him, its not like a spit in his fat face. So in the same sentence he seems sorrowful but also insulting at the same time.

Forget about not playing the long game, he literally can't see past the end of his fucking nose. And he can't think for more than five consecutive seconds.

He wants to see the long game, he tries to play it. Charlie wants to own a restaurant to give him credibility and respect, Paulie wants to own a racehorse because wealthy people own racehorses and he feels that is how he will earn credibility and respect. The problem is that the two of them hold each other back. Paulie holds back Charlie by continuously making hairbrained mistakes, and Charlie is held back from he and his girl friends dreams because he can't stop taking care of Paulie. They are co-dependent.

"Murder rap? Nobody came within 20 feet of that yo-yo. He dived into that hole like a fucking gopher."

That line cracks me up for some reason because its true, he did dive down that elevator shaft like gopher down a hole.

And, in case you mooks have never seen this glorious medley of impressions, check out Dice doing, among other impressions, the best Paulie you'll ever see.

Andrew Dice Clay at his peak was a sight to behold.

That actually happens twice. After the stickball scene when they're crossing the street Paulie's got Charlie's arm. Then, after Charlie drops his son off at his ex's and starts walking away, Paulie follows and latches right onto that arm.

To me, what that signifies is less their relationship (I don't get a "married couple" vibe) and more Paulie's neediness and insecurity. He literally clings to Charlie. He's like Uncle Leo.

I don't man, you may be correct but it still went to weird levels. A good example is Charlie feeding Paulie in bed, once again, as if its a male and female relationship. Charlie is actually laying down beside Paulie in that scene.

Meanwhile, Rourke is not great to his pregnant girlfriend, and goes along with the heist, but at least he's self-conscious about it all? When it came to Darryl Hannah, he seemed to know it was better to walk away since he's not going to change for her. While yes, it's not good he walked away his pregnant girlfriend, I don't think he was ever dishonest with her. Sure, he wasn't a great guy, and she was most likely right for leaving him, but she also knew he wasn't going to change and that her baby needed a more stable environment.

The entire thing played out like a bro's before ho's story or a Dave Chapelle skit, when keeping it real goes wrong. He had 50k to invest in a restaurant, a good woman who loved him and was pregnant, and that still wasn't enough to make him change. What does that say? To me it says he didn't really want that life even though he pretended to for most of the film. I don't know how to square that up because we believe what he wants is a wife and a restaurant but when he gets his chance he says no.

Also like several others, the ending bothered me. Eric Roberts poured lye in Paulie's coffee, which isn't always fatal and could be just very painful. It was another terrible decision after a series of bad decisions starting from skimming checks and ending with him offing a mob boss. Did they think they'd be able to just walk off into the sunset?

I think Paulie and Charlie felt like they could do anything if they just got the right break, or the right scheme. Its almost like they felt untouchable, even after Paulie got his thumb cut off. Charlie also knows no limit when it comes to protecting Paulie. He walked into a mob bosses headquarters and threatened him to his face. That is far more than he would ever do for his girl friend. Paulie of course fucked this up but I think its revealing when Charlie tells Bed Bug Eddie that he's the Pope of Greenwich Village.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Those were some real slaps to. She was slapping the shit out of him, that or its one of the best fake slap scenes I've ever seen.

I'm guessing they're real. I seem to recall an interview with Anthony Hopkins regarding Desperate Hours and he mentioned how Mickey slapped for real. Dat commitment to the craft, yo.

 

[MusterX]

Maybe. Seems like at the very least they'd have followed Paulie. Or had Paulie lure him somewhere.

When I was watching the movie I thought that was what was happening when they went to the race track. I thought Paulie was luring Charlie there for Bed Bug Eddie.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

When I was watching the movie I thought that was what was happening when they went to the race track. I thought Paulie was luring Charlie there for Bed Bug Eddie.

Out in public and at a place where the money could just go poof when it crosses the ticket counter? BB Eddie Grant wasn't that dumb. And oh yeah, anyone else been having this go through their head in the last week?

 

[sickc0d3r]

Aka the real method acting

 

[MusterX]

I'll get to your guys' oobatz shit later.