SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 130 - Embrace of the Serpent

I see where you coming from to some degree, and yes if you are attempting to analyse a historical time period in isolation and ignoring wider context and longer-term trends simply in order to make a particular point is certainly bad history (not that I am agreeing that the cost-benefit was necessarily worth it). However, it's also true that specific chunks of time need to be isolated and discussed on their own terms. I would say history, as it's studied nowadays, is more about building a picture up from from the 'small picture', than constantly trying to fit things into a 'big picture'. That is the influence of the dreaded post-modernism, but the eschewing of grand narratives is a good thing in my view, those are more likely to lead to a misunderstanding of the past more than anything else. Context is crucial, but the small details are just as important.

In any case, I feel like this film operates much more emotionally than it does analytically. Given that it is so closely bound up with the experiences and perspective of the Amazonian people themselves I think that it makes sense that takes a strongly 'anti-Western' tone. And I would say much of this is valid criticism anyway, of course explaining why it happened and placing it within it's wider context is important, but the explanation does nothing to reduce the actual human suffering. And this suffering and loss is what this film is primarily concerned. Perhaps you think the cost was worth it, or an inevitable consequence of modernisation and globalisation, but lamenting the loss of life and complete extinction of many of these cultures is worth it in my view.

I also agree with @europe1's point, that "the movie sort-of proves Theo correct. Despite him dying, his writing made it back to Europe. As the epilogue says, the writings of Theo are some of the sole-remaining sources we have about extinct cultures. Without them -- their names would be forgotten forever. That seems like a pretty powerful congratulation of Western memorabilia to me on the movies part."

Old Karamakate comes to realise this in the end too. I do agree with some of what you say about being 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' though, but in the film much of young Karamakate's statements to Theo are from the perspective of an angry young man whose entire world has been torn apart by Western colonialism. And again, there was a lot to be angry about whatever the reasons you might use to explain it.

You and @europe1 with all your levelheadedness and diplomacy. You two clearly aren't students of the Patches O'Houlihan school :D



The "isolating history" bit is a fair point. I was actually playing Devil's Advocate in my own head and thinking about how I enjoyed the anti-religion bit but it's not like irrationality and death is all that religion has contributed to the world. And, after all, Ayn Rand's definition of art is "a selective recreation of reality." I can't very well bitch about a film being selective. You can only do so much in two hours.

Still, it just wasn't a satisfying treatment of these themes and issues. It had its moments, but only the little moments (Karamakate laughing at Theo "expressing affection," the "worst of both worlds" lamentation) packed any punch. The big moments, where big thematic points needed to be articulated or where we needed to follow Karamakate's transformation, those were where they dropped the ball IMO.
 
Again, this isn't a personal attack on you, but this is more bullshit. That's not all that science has given the world. And anyone who genuinely gripes about ignorant shit like that while typing on a computer or using an iPhone is the worst kind of ungrateful hypocritical ignoramus.

Agreed in a global context. In the context of the film and Karamakate's personal experience, science did nothing to enrich his life....
 
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This isn't a personal attack on you, but this leads me to observe that I think it's more indicative of the stupid "damned if you do, damned if you don't" traps in which such "progressive" thinking often results. If the "white man" downplays old cultural ways in favor of "Western technology," then he's an "imperialist," but if he downplays technology in favor of old cultures, then he's a condescending "Orientalist." It's a lose-lose situation: If you're white, you just have to accept the fact that everything you do and say is wrong.

I think you can accept that everything you do or say could be perceived as wrong by someone in today's world. To me it comes down to intent, and Theo was as innocent an explorer as there were. Unfortunately, most of the time there is an alternative motive to the exploration be it indoctrination, or the approprition of resources.
 
I knew it'd take a while for me to get into this, but luckily the conversation continued as recent as a few days ago. MMA's been riding me hard the past few weeks for my spare time to sit down and watch something, and at the end of November there are six(!) major events to cover over the span of two days - two UFCs, two Bellators, an LFA and a KSW. So, I do what I can.

I know I'm not the only one to think this, but a film shot so beautifully with such care and interest in presenting the beauty (and loneliness) of the world around them, it being black and white for almost its entirety is criminal. There are so many shots where I stopped and wished that it was in color so we could see truly see the scene for what it is, but maybe I'm new-fashioned.

There's something horribly depressing about forgetting your culture, your heritage, and what you did for your whole life. When an older Karamakate (yeah I'm going to try to use his name) looks back on his work and can't remember what it was about, it makes me wonder what kept him going every day. He was living only to survive, since he was all alone and had forgotten anything worth knowing. The quest, a Last Crusade, revived him, which is the perfect call for a good adventure.

The dueling expeditions are interesting to me, and I don't mind how they are interspersed throughout the story. It doesn't really become difficult to follow like it easily could have been, because we see them following a similar path with significantly different results. It's one of those "actions have consequences" stories.

I get the feeling that the substance Karamakate keeps blowing into Theo's nose is a drug, and not really medicinal. It could be some sort of narcotic to keep him going so the illness doesn't sap away his energy from the inside. I don't know, some kind of herbal jungle super snuff.

Is every Catholic organization evil? I mean that's obviously a horrible overgeneralization and incorrect, but it seems like in cinema, a major Catholic body - be it a mission, church sector or the group of cardinals - seems to be nefarious and destructive. The mission Theo and the gang find at the beginning is horribly abusive and terrible, and it doesn't get much better when they come back however long it is later. They should just burn it down. I don't know what's worse, an evil priest ruining children or those ruined children growing up insane and creating a jesus-like entity to form a cult around. Probably the former, because it caused the latter.



I can't even fathom what it would be like for indigenous people to discover an outside culture, the closest parallel would be us meeting aliens now. They viewed these outsiders to be gods or magi, and I imagine many would see aliens as deities as well. I don't know if we would eat them if they asked us to...no, we definitely would. As a culture we are easily as manipulated as they were in this film.

There's a film I'm trying to remember right now but it's not coming to me. It's about a group of people that go on a quest to find the something object, and when they get there it's surrounded by a bunch of goofballs and they realize it's all been for naught. Oh well. I also felt shades of National Lampoon's Vacation, the big letdown after such a journey. Also, shades of Black Panther for destroying it.

But there's some poetry about the last surviving man of his tribe giving someone else the last surviving plant of its kind. The last plant dies with a dying man. It's beautiful, and then the drug trip he went on made me again furious that the rest of this was in black and white and not color. It looked like a sad wasteland but in color it would have looked majestic. Maybe that's the point? I don't know. It wasn't a big payoff, it felt like they missed out. It was like the reverse Wizard of Oz.

8/10, it's a true adventure even though it's chock full of sadness. It's life. I will say, I was never bored. I looked at the clock a few times, to be fair, but luckily it didn't drag. We didn't linger too long at any one place, and that can really pull a film down if we're stuck somewhere that doesn't go anywhere. We see the Mission twice and it's terrible twice, but we move on. Just like life.
 
Is every Catholic organization evil? I mean that's obviously a horrible overgeneralization and incorrect, but it seems like in cinema, a major Catholic body - be it a mission, church sector or the group of cardinals - seems to be nefarious and destructive.

Probably. You just made me wonder if this one is worth re-watching.


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Probably. You just made me wonder if this one is worth re-watching.


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I mean I think of all the films out there about Catholicism and Catholic religious figures, and it rarely ever looks good. Spotlight, Silence, I Confess, Doubt, Dogma, Stigmata, Mea Maxima Culpa, The Order, The Mission, The Agony and the Ecstasy to an extent (they're not "evil," just not great), and on and on.

I might be conflating a few into Catholicism that are just ultimately religious figures, but still.
 
Is every Catholic organization evil? I mean that's obviously a horrible overgeneralization and incorrect, but it seems like in cinema, a major Catholic body - be it a mission, church sector or the group of cardinals - seems to be nefarious and destructive. The mission Theo and the gang find at the beginning is horribly abusive and terrible, and it doesn't get much better when they come back however long it is later. They should just burn it down. I don't know what's worse, an evil priest ruining children or those ruined children growing up insane and creating a jesus-like entity to form a cult around. Probably the former, because it caused the latter.

You saying we should watch something like The Mission or The Black Robe to get a good impression of the Catholic Church's interaction with native populations instead?:D

But yeah, obviously there are a ton of historical reasons behind the Church's negative portrayal on film. It being a ginormous institution that has often worked to curtail progress and keep things traditional.

Interestingly, contemporary accounts of the Colonial period are willing to report on the brutality of the colonialists (such as the plantation owners). But the church is almost always illuminated in a positive light (often as a spiritual-dominating alternative to the economically-incentivised domination of the temporal colonialist)
 
Well Europe1 I kept my promise and finally got around to watching this, actually partly delayed by wanting to have the time to really focus on it as I had high expectations and it certainly didn't disappoint.

Considering photography has kept me away I spose its right to start highlighting that the look of the film reminds me strongly of Brazilian photographer Seastiao Salgado's work...

https://huxleyparlour.com/artists/sebastiao-salgado/

Its really a style of black and white photography that doesn't feel like its looking back to the past for me focusing less on use of areas of light and dark and more on bright very strong high contrast images that bring out textures, well suited for the kind of subjects both him and this film cover. It does I think help as well with the idea of pushing the viewer to look past the obvious into view of the locations more akin to that of the locals. My attempt at ripping off his style in Chile a couple of years ago on the Baker river(under threat from potential daming)...

drx41Zc.jpg


I see where you coming from to some degree, and yes if you are attempting to analyse a historical time period in isolation and ignoring wider context and longer-term trends simply in order to make a particular point is certainly bad history (not that I am agreeing that the cost-benefit was necessarily worth it). However, it's also true that specific chunks of time need to be isolated and discussed on their own terms. I would say history, as it's studied nowadays, is more about building a picture up from from the 'small picture', than constantly trying to fit things into a 'big picture'. That is the influence of the dreaded post-modernism, but the eschewing of grand narratives is a good thing in my view, those are more likely to lead to a misunderstanding of the past more than anything else. Context is crucial, but the small details are just as important.

In any case, I feel like this film operates much more emotionally than it does analytically. Given that it is so closely bound up with the experiences and perspective of the Amazonian people themselves I think that it makes sense that takes a strongly 'anti-Western' tone. And I would say much of this is valid criticism anyway, of course explaining why it happened and placing it within it's wider context is important, but the explanation does nothing to reduce the actual human suffering. And this suffering and loss is what this film is primarily concerned. Perhaps you think the cost was worth it, or an inevitable consequence of modernisation and globalisation, but lamenting the loss of life and complete extinction of many of these cultures is worth it in my view.

I also agree with @europe1's point, that "the movie sort-of proves Theo correct. Despite him dying, his writing made it back to Europe. As the epilogue says, the writings of Theo are some of the sole-remaining sources we have about extinct cultures. Without them -- their names would be forgotten forever. That seems like a pretty powerful congratulation of Western memorabilia to me on the movies part."

Old Karamakate comes to realise this in the end too. I do agree with some of what you say about being 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' though, but in the film much of young Karamakate's statements to Theo are from the perspective of an angry young man whose entire world has been torn apart by Western colonialism. And again, there was a lot to be angry about whatever the reasons you might use to explain it.

Yes I'd tend to agree with that, whilst obviously the film shows us a lot of negative aspects of colonialism it doesn't feel like its focusing on making a judgement here so much as giving us the native perspective of the situation, something that typically this kind of film tends to ignore in favour of a western perspective. I think you could perhaps argue that a lot of the plot elements we see here are deliberately tied the classic western focused colonial story in Heart of Darkness and adaptations like Apoc Now giving us that local perspective instead.
 
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@Eazy123 drew this to my attention in another thread

This guy is known as the Man of the Hole, a unocontacted Amazonian native:



He is believed to be the last member of his tribe (whose name is unknown), all the rest were murdered by hostile farmers in 1995. By that time there was only a handful anyway, the tribe was decimated by the bulldozing of their territory to make way for a read, leading to increased demand for the surrounding land.

Basically like a real life Karamakate! Pretty tragic story. Here is one of his huts that he builds and abandons:

4E70FF6400000578-5972009-image-a-37_1532111174596.jpg


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-44901055
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappen...ce-of-protecting-uncontacted-tribes-1.4755814
https://nypost.com/2016/09/22/the-terrifying-lonely-ordeal-of-man-of-the-hole/
 
@Eazy123 drew this to my attention in another thread

This guy is known as the Man of the Hole, a unocontacted Amazonian native:



He is believed to be the last member of his tribe (whose name is unknown), all the rest were murdered by hostile farmers in 1995. By that time there was only a handful anyway, the tribe was decimated by the bulldozing of their territory to make way for a read, leading to increased demand for the surrounding land.

Basically like a real life Karamakate! Pretty tragic story. Here is one of his huts that he builds and abandons:

4E70FF6400000578-5972009-image-a-37_1532111174596.jpg


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-44901055
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappen...ce-of-protecting-uncontacted-tribes-1.4755814
https://nypost.com/2016/09/22/the-terrifying-lonely-ordeal-of-man-of-the-hole/


I wonder if he abandons them coz people keep finding him and he just wants to be left alone :(
 
@Eazy123 drew this to my attention in another thread

This guy is known as the Man of the Hole, a unocontacted Amazonian native:



He is believed to be the last member of his tribe (whose name is unknown), all the rest were murdered by hostile farmers in 1995. By that time there was only a handful anyway, the tribe was decimated by the bulldozing of their territory to make way for a read, leading to increased demand for the surrounding land.

Basically like a real life Karamakate! Pretty tragic story. Here is one of his huts that he builds and abandons:

4E70FF6400000578-5972009-image-a-37_1532111174596.jpg


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-44901055
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappen...ce-of-protecting-uncontacted-tribes-1.4755814
https://nypost.com/2016/09/22/the-terrifying-lonely-ordeal-of-man-of-the-hole/


This article feels relevant to the discussion about Catholicism (I would broaden the category to Christianity) and its portrayal in film.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/21/world/asia/american-killed-andaman-island-tribe.html

Basically:
On Wednesday, the Indian authorities said that Mr. Chau had been shot with bows and arrows by tribesmen when he got on shore and that his body was still on the island.
His purpose:
Mr. Pathak said Mr. Chau, believed to be 26 or 27 and from Washington State, may have been trying to convert the islanders to Christianity. Right before he left in his kayak, Mr. Chau gave the fishermen a long note in case he did not come back. In it, police officials said, he had written that Jesus had bestowed him with the strength to go to the most forbidden places on Earth.

To me, most Christian missions have had both good and bad intentions. IMHO, the bad intentions (conversion to provide salvation) are primary, and the good ones (health care, Eurocentric education) have been the way in (this guy wanted to give them a soccer ball, fishing line and scissors). Education is subjective. just coz some cultures value knowing the Bible and how to read and write, doesn't mean there is a need for it in other cultures. Not sure how valuable the health care is, since often the missionaries brought diseases with them. So I have a pretty darn negative view about the impact of Christianity on indigenous groups @jei . I think history would back me up, so I am not surprised to see it finally represented the way it is in film. I believe there are plenty of old movies that show the Christians as the civilized saviors.

I'm not saying there are not good Christians out there. I'm saying that I have a problem with indoctrination and shaming of those that are different, and that I absolutely despise that kind of superiority.
 
So... are those fanatics supposed to be the same youths Karamakate fist encountered? We get no inclination of this except that it's the same place they visit.

If it is... that would be pretty daming to Karamakate's urging to not allow them to forget their songs.

I think your given the strong impression they are, maybe even that the "jesus" figure is the son of the missionary(or another) and a native as he also seems like a true believer rather than someone who has merely exploited the situation. I'd imagine a situation where he doesn't take control of the colony so much as he is elevated to that position by the colony.

To me the film does repeatedly highlight the unintended consequences not just of western actions but of the native actions. Earlier on for example Manduca destroying the rubber farm but then finding he's dammed the old man to be punished further(I assume his arm was cut off to make sure he was dependant on rubber farming unable to live off the land). I don't think that or his hitting(Killing?) the missionary are really highlighted as morally negative just examples of unintended consequences.
 
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I think your given the strong impression they are, maybe even that the "jesus" figure is the son of the missionary(or another) and a native as he also seems like a true believer rather than someone who has merely exploited the situation. I'd imagine a situation where he doesn't take control of the colony so much as he is elevated to that position by the colony.

I thought that too, but he wasn't indigenous by race. He seemed white and I think he spoke a latin based language. I can usually recognize Portuguese and it sounded Portugueesy to me. I ended up thinking he was someone who came in and took advantage of the situation.
 
I thought that too, but he wasn't indigenous by race. He seemed white and I think he spoke a latin based language. I can usually recognize Portuguese and it sounded Portugueesy to me. I ended up thinking he was someone who came in and took advantage of the situation.

The way he was acting didn't really make him seem like someone with knowledge of Christianity taking advantage of the situation to me, most obviously his ultimate end being willingly eaten alive.

To me it seemed like the whole situation was intended not to show outside control of the natives but the kind of society a mix of semi understood Christianity mixed with native religion had created, most obviously compared to situations such as the Taiping Rebellion in 19th century China.
 
Not to continue harping on the impact of the Church on society, but here are a couple of eye opening articles in case anyone is interested in learning more about events that are current in nature and largely ignored.

ALASKA
"In its short history as a state, Alaska has earned an unnerving epithet: It is the rape capital of the U.S. At nearly 80 rapes per 100,000, according to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, Alaska’s rape rate is almost three times the national average; for child sexual assault, it’s nearly six times. And, according to the 2010 Alaska Victimization Survey, the most comprehensive data to date, 59 percent of Alaskan women have been victims of sexual assault, intimate partner violence, or both."

"Then, shortly after the second pandemic, many Native Alaskan children were shipped off to boarding schools—some as young as 6 years old—and many were beaten, sexually abused, and urged to forget their languages and cultures. In a few villages, multimillion-dollar lawsuits were filed against Catholic priests and church workers for molesting almost an entire generation of Alaska Native children. (The suits were settled in 2007 and 2011.)"

Here is the article: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/rape-culture-in-the-alaskan-wilderness/379976/

AFRICAN CONTINENT
"Part of the agenda of US evangelical churches is explored in a 2014 report by the Rev Kapya Kaoma called American Culture Warriors in Africa: A Guide to the Exporters of Homophobia and Sexism, which is endorsed by Desmond Tutu. Kaoma is an Anglican priest from Zambia now living and working in the US with the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts due to threats against his life. His work paints a picture of the myriad of US groups and their African allies who, he says, are “seeking to impose their intolerant – and even theocratic – interpretations of Christianity on the rest of the world”.

This includes the American Centre for Law and Justice (ACLJ), whose founders are televangelist Pat Robertson and lawyer Jay Sekulow. The organisation has visited South Sudan’s leadership with aims to influence its political agenda. The organisation has pushed for the criminalising of abortion and homosexuality across Africa and operates in Russia, Israel and Europe. The Republican presidential hopeful Jeb Bush recently appointedSekulow’s son, Jordan, to be his “liaison” with religious conservatives."

The source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...als-africa-charity-missionaries-homosexuality
 
The way he was acting didn't really make him seem like someone with knowledge of Christianity taking advantage of the situation to me, most obviously his ultimate end being willingly eaten alive.

To me it seemed like the whole situation was intended not to show outside control of the natives but the kind of society a mix of semi understood Christianity mixed with native religion had created, most obviously compared to situations such as the Taiping Rebellion in 19th century China.

I would agree. I got this weird sense of a power grab that was possible via manipulation and a superficial knowledge of Christianity. He kinda created his own cult.
 
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