Sherdog POTWR: Round 2: The Debate

[Limbo Pete]

I think to some degree he was all of those things. He was a moderate by the standards of the time. He absolutely hated and opposed slavery. He openly opposed the war with Mexico as a Member of the House because he saw it as an American expanionist venture with the objective of illegally adding more territory to slave holding states. Lincoln was completely morally opposed to Slavery, but he was more concerned with the preservation of the Union, and thus the Constitution, than he was with the ending of slavery. He was at the same time just as opposed to the spread of it, at least early in his political career.

He was also very obviously a political pramatist who understood his situation, both prior to the election, and after the war started. You can see this in the numerous pure political appointments he made within the military itself, and with the way the Emancipation Proclamation was issued. Lincoln didn't have a lot of Political friends, even after winning the Presidency. He was always keenly aware of whose head he needed to pat and whose he needed to thump. The upper echelons of the Military were filled early in the war by men who hadn't served a day in the military prior to the war, all of them appointed by Lincoln. He did this to curry favor with people who would otherwise cause him lots of problems. If you know or read anything about the Irish during this time period, much of the actual enlisted ranks of the Union Army was made up at the time by fresh Irish immigrants who were for the most part staunch Democrats. Lincoln worked very hard to secure the good will and personal admiration of Thomas Francis Maher, the General in charge of the Irish Brigade who was himself a Democrat and an Irish Revolutionary who dreamed of forming the Irish into a fighting unit that would learn to fight in the organized, European style in the Civil War, return to Ireland and overthrow the English Government. Lincoln mercilessly exploited and propogandized the links between the Irish history of oppression in England to the history of oppression of the African Slaves in the US, all to keep a massive Democrat population of immigrants fighting and dying against other Democrats on behalf of a Republican President.

You can also see his pragmatism in the way he handled the Emancipation Proclamation. The Proclamation was finalized and presented to the Confederates in September of 1862, it wasn't issued until January of 1863. It was intended as a warning, as a last chance for the Confederates to end this foolishness, come back to the Union and keep their slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation affected only the Confederate States, it didn't affect the slave states that had stayed part of the Union. It was a final warning to either accept, or there will be no resolution other than a destruction of your way of life, of total war until one side or the other is finished.

Lastly, I think Lincoln was a bit of a private Political Radical. I think he honestly felt the things that he said, that he believed that if he could preserve the Union by keeping Slavery here and ending it there, that he would. I think he knew in his heart that there was no way that would ever work, and that war at some level was going to be neccessary to end the system as it currently stood. While I don't believe he wanted that, I believe he accepted that and prepared for it even while trying to do his best to prevent it. That in my mind is further proof of his pragmatism.

Excellent response

 

[Lead]

Play this song and nod yo heads like Rousey and Nunes are approaching the poll booth and shit

 

[Hans Gruber]

8 hours remain

So how does this process work? Is discussion permitted in the next thread or just votes? How many days of voting?

 

[Lead]

So how does this process work? Is discussion permitted in the next thread or just votes? How many days of voting?

Discussion continues on like the past two threads. The poll will just be up. The poll is open for 7 days and 15 hours so next Monday afternoon it will be closed.

 

[lfd0311]

Discussion continues on like the past two threads. The poll will just be up. The poll is open for 7 days and 15 hours so next Monday afternoon it will be closed.

When do I take over after that?

 

[Lead]

I must say you all (candidates and posters alike) made this a very good thread to read. Props to all who remained active during the week.

 

[Lead]

When do I take over after that?

POTWR's term will begin January 1st. It might not occur immediately at midnight as I may be drunk and only able to use mobile but it will start up fairly quick within that day.

 

[Clippy]

POTWR's term will begin January 1st. It might not occur immediately at midnight as I may be drunk and only able to use mobile but it will start up fairly quick within that day.

So one poll and it's winner take all?

I thought there would be some kind of primaries and the poll would reduce the field

weak

 

[Lead]

So one poll and it's winner take all?

I thought there would be some kind of primaries and the poll would reduce the field

weak

The summary of the process was explained in the first round op. First poll is the primary, next poll is the general.
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/sherdog-potwr-round-1.3396427/

Round 2 Debate/Townhall- We will have our candidates decided by this point. Round 2 will serve are the vetting/scrutiny process. A series of questions will be given to each candidate that they will need to answer. I will PM them the questions and provide each of their answers in the OP. The OP will somewhat serve as the formal debate. From there, anyone will be free to tag and ask the candidates questions whether hostile or civil. You will be free to grill or praise a candidate. This is the closest you will get to a call out thread opportunity in the WR. That is the price the candidates accepted when declaring to run after all.
Round 3 The Jungle Primary Round- The election will begin. The War Room will be using a multi-candidate friendly system. This means when the first poll closes, the two candidates with the most (registered/legal) votes will continue to the general/run off election. Remember, only War Room citizen votes will be tallied once the poll closes. Candidates who can already tell they lost are free to make concession speeches at this point.
Round 4 The General Election- This will be our general election. Two candidates will be left and another poll to see who wins. I will ask drop out candidates via PM to submit any endorsement speeches that haven't been made in Round 3 that will be included in the OP. Once the poll closes, the winner will be announced and begin their privileges in January.

 

[HomerThompson]

Yes, it would wipe out all of the existing forms of welfare including section 8, food stamps, etc. I don't think there's a point in drawing a distinction between the south and elsewhere.

Spoiler

My opinion is that the market will clear up those issues over time. Also since the income is based on phasing out as income rises, by the time a family reaches $75k, they'll be receiving so little that it's not going to be a concern.

What about school choice?

Spoiler

It won't be necessary unless someone wants to pay for private school. If the fed is centralizing k-12 education then we won't see the district to district funding disparities that ultimately drive the need for school choice. Once we can be sure that every school district is receiving equal funding (which eliminates forum shopping for teachers and unequal facilities based on zip codes) then it's no longer the government's responsibility to ensure that those communities get the most out of their neighborhood schools. This is an important point because there is a legitimate issue with how funding disparities drives qualified teachers to seek the best paying jobs leaving the poorest students with the least qualified/least experienced instructors. Teachers will still change districts but it won't be because of pay discrepancies between poor and rich students.

People think that free college equates to automatic admission. It doesn't, they are completely separate points.

Spoiler

Free college just means no tuition IF YOU EARN ADMISSION. This actually raises the quality of the public universities. It makes admission more competitive and more selective. You won't have D students in public universities because all of the A and B students will grab all of the seats to avoid the expense of private universities.

I wouldn't do anything about the taxes. Of course it's fair that some people pay no income tax.

Spoiler

The absurdity of that question falls squately in the crosshairs of a progressive taxation plan. Is it fair that some people pay 33% and others only pay 15%? Is it fair that some people have deductions and some people don't? All the same fundamental question.

So, no, I don't expect everyone to pay something. We can't be childish or vindictive when it comes to funding a great society and that means we don't get bogged down in trying to squeeze the poor for more money just to make some nebulous point. What we do is create opportunities for the poor to enter into the tax paying portion of the tax code. It's absurd to think that taxing poor people, just to make sure their paying something, actually accomplishes anything except preserving their poverty. Which shouldn't be our goal.

If you want to heal the divide between the cops and the communities, we need to stop sugar coating the race related themes we bring to these conversations (including the coded language that people use both knowingly and unknowingly).

Spoiler

People need to stop acting as if this divide just arose from malfeasance within those communities and isn't the product of decades of cyclical abuse from the government, enforced by the cops, coupled with poverty and garnished with decades of disenfranchisement.

There's no role for the fed in that. The fed can't stop people from assuming that every black person is less intelligent or prone to violence or only successful because of PC-ness. People who hold those positions are the problem. Whether they are politicians, police, or deli owners. The government can't change attitudes and until those attitudes reduce you can't expect the people who are focus of those attitudes to act as if everything is hunky dory. If I think you hate me or think I'm stupid or whatever, you can't expect me to accept your perspective on my life.

I have this conversation with my wife frequently. She dislikes certain clients of mine. Fine. Then she acts surprised when they say "Panamaican, I don't think your wife likes me." As I tell my wife - if you think poorly of someone, you telegraph it in tons of subtle ways and it's ignorant to think that they won't pick up on it and respond. Society needs to learn this lesson.[/spoiler]

 

[Hans Gruber]

So one poll and it's winner take all?

I thought there would be some kind of primaries and the poll would reduce the field

weak

Dude...you are running. You should have had one of your subordinates ask that question so people don't realize that you are such a slacker that you haven't even read the rules.

That appeals to me but it may not to certain sticklers that I won't mention

 

[Bald1]

Dude...you are running. You should have had one of your subordinates ask that question so people don't realize that you are such a slacker that you haven't even read the rules.

That appeals to me but it may not to certain sticklers that I won't mention

I think ignorance is part of his strategy. Much like Clinton supporters, he's going to play the "if the rules were different, I'd have won" card after his loss. Never underestimate office supplies, and their treachery.

 

[Clippy]

Dude...you are running. You should have had one of your subordinates ask that question so people don't realize that you are such a slacker that you haven't even read the rules.

That appeals to me but it may not to certain sticklers that I won't mention

I'm very hands on

I work hard for the people

 

[Dr J]

The summary of the process was explained in the first round op. First poll is the primary, next poll is the general.
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/sherdog-potwr-round-1.3396427/

Louisiana-style primaries. I like it.

 

[JDragon]

The poll vote probably distorts things as we go along, no? We should have a secret vote by PM. Or is it possible to have a forum poll but only show results later?

Then again... primaries.

 

[Lead]

The poll vote probably distorts things as we go along, no? We should have a secret vote by PM. Or is it possible to have a forum poll but only show results later?

Then again... primaries.

Everything has been thought out before Round 1. No worries

 

[JDragon]

Overview of campaign promises


Obviously not completely neutral, but I tried to be where I could. If something important is missing, tag me and link to your post / speech where you promise something and I will add it (I will also carry this over to the voting thread).


@Jack V Savage

Promised to stay in his own thread and not post elsewhere.

@Amerikuracana

Promised gf boobie pics without nipples. A little uncertainty whether offer still stands after meltdown on page 13 of prior thread.

@MusterX

Promised long series of conspiracy-themed threads.

@panamaican

Promised unbridled arrogance and intellectual superiority.

@JDragon

Promised to make the War Room great again:

• Will introduce Poster of the Month, Shitposter of the Month, extreme vetting of new posters (equalling a Wall to Mayberry and F2)
• Those who nominate for PotM and SPotM are in the running for monthly Presidential Medals of Honors that come with free Plats months - but only if it is done against political leaning
• That means you get rewarded if you acknowledge good posts from your ideological opponents or call out buddies for the bullshit they write
• Promised to not favor one side, to be ensured by always having nominations from both (or multiple) sides in monthly polls
• Promised special prosecutor for Jack V Savage and @RexKwonDo

@HomerThompson

Promised dick pics. Unclear whether of himself.

@Space

Promised nothing.

@HereticBD

Promised that when he is "War Room Overlord", there will be less thread merging. Unclear how he wants to achieve that in his sticky thread.

@lfd0311

Promised nothing

@CEROVFC

Promised to mock people in a "Stupidest thread of the day" declaration.

@Overpressure

Made a lot of crazy promises he does not intend to keep. His words, not mine!

@Palis

Promised a different forum structure - a War Room for everyone and a War Room for insiders only where ony those who prove worthy in the War Room for everyone can get in. Appears to have silently buried the idea after realizing it was probably not that good and there was no way to get this done. Now only promises better boobs pics than Amerikuracana.

@Clippy

Promised nothing.

@m52nickerson

Not running any more - endorsed JDragon

@snakedafunky

Promised a "free War Room". Unclear what that means.

 

[Gandhi]

Why would you be confused by my response to Hans?

was j/k as he has called everyone a pedo lover in this thread, and u put those people on ignore

 

[Lead]

Overview of campaign promises


Obviously not completely neutral, but I tried to be where I could. If something important is missing, tag me and link to your post / speech where you promise something and I will add it (I will also carry this over to the voting thread).


@Jack V Savage

Promised to stay in his own thread and not post elsewhere.

@Amerikuracana

Promised gf boobie pics without nipples. A little uncertainty whether offer still stands after meltdown on page 13 of prior thread.

@MusterX

Promised long series of conspiracy-themed threads.

@panamaican

Promised unbridled arrogance and intellectual superiority.

@JDragon

Promised to make the War Room great again:

• Will introduce Poster of the Month, Shitposter of the Month, extreme vetting of new posters (equalling a Wall to Mayberry and F2)
• Those who nominate for PotM and SPotM are in the running for monthly Presidential Medals of Honors that come with free Plats months - but only if it is done against political leaning
• That means you get rewarded if you acknowledge good posts from your ideological opponents or call out buddies for the bullshit they write
• Promised to not favor one side, to be ensured by always having nominations from both (or multiple) sides in monthly polls
• Promised special prosecutor for Jack V Savage and @RexKwonDo

@HomerThompson

Promised dick pics. Unclear whether of himself.

@Space

Promised nothing.

@HereticBD

Promised that when he is "War Room Overlord", there will be less thread merging. Unclear how he wants to achieve that in his sticky thread.

@lfd0311

Promised nothing

@CEROVFC

Promised to mock people in a "Stupidest thread of the day" declaration.

@Overpressure

Made a lot of crazy promises he does not intend to keep. His words, not mine!

@Palis

Promised a different forum structure - a War Room for everyone and a War Room for insiders only where ony those who prove worthy in the War Room for everyone can get in. Appears to have silently buried the idea after realizing it was probably not that good and there was no way to get this done. Now only promises better boobs pics than Amerikuracana.

@Clippy

Promised nothing.

@m52nickerson

Not running any more - endorsed JDragon

@snakedafunky

Promised a "free War Room". Unclear what that means.

@Palis @Amerikuracana

I need assurance on which boob pic will be better to make an truly informed and educated decision here.

 

[Lead]

This may be too late as the thread may be locked before people get on but

@MusterX
@JDragon
@Jack V Savage

Do you intend to run for re-election if you win this year? I believe Jack already answered this with the Rex Kwon Do deal but wanted to know from these people.