Should knee kicks be legal in mma?

[Kickblogger]

Joe Rogan and Firas got into the debate on the JRE last week;



Shameless plug for my instagram account, I break down some ways they can be attacked and defended against;



Of course it's a bit different in Muay Thai because knee attacks are illegal and they target the thigh but many of the same principles apply.

My $0.02 is that they shouldn't be illegal because they are hard to pull off and don't cause a devastating injury every time.

I'd say so far in MMA history heel hooks have so far caused more injuries.

Of course its conceivable if people start getting injured left right and centre from them I could reassess my views but I don't see the evidence there to ban them as things stand.

What do you think?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

No. It's a fight, just learn defence. It's how fighting works.

 

[shincheckin]

Joe Rogan and Firas got into the debate on the JRE last week;



Shameless plug for my instagram account, I break down some ways they can be attacked and defended against;



Of course it's a bit different in Muay Thai because knee attacks are illegal and they target the thigh but many of the same principles apply.

My $0.02 is that they shouldn't be illegal because they are hard to pull off and don't cause a devastating injury every time.

I'd say so far in MMA history heel hooks have so far caused more injuries.

Of course its conceivable if people start getting injured left right and centre from them I could reassess my views but I don't see the evidence there to ban them as things stand.

What do you think?

I think it should be banned. Its a self defense move, not a sport move. The goal/idea/concept behind kicking the knee, is to hyperextend the knee and break it. No we shouldnt be allowed to break eachothers knees on purpose in a sport.

The video you posted of a "defense" against it, was not a defense against it. More like a kick that missed and landed on the shin instead of the knee, so more coincidence. This goes for all the other clips I have seen as well where guys are saying it can easily be defended against, yet the clips used to demonstrate such defenses, usually do little more than show coincidences rather than a actual defense IMO of people throwing the kick it and it missing slightly and sliding off.

Comparing it to a armbar for example, where the goal is to hyperextend the arm and break it. Well they are the same thing right? they both hyperextend and break the joint. The difference being with an armbar, due to the pulling motion, you can tapout before breaking point. With a strike, there is no tapping out, once it lands, it lands, and the full force behind the strike is applied. If it lands clean and solid to the knee, its going to injure it.

another argument or comparison i see, is the teep to the thigh being compared to this move. The teep to the thigh, is not a teep to the the knee. Teep to the thigh and side kick to the knee cannot be compared to each other.

you can hear JRE say here in this podcost several times, he fucked up his knee, his knee got fucked up etc.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I don't think it's a coincidence that we see this move lots in MMA and Muay Thai where lateral movement is poorer, but rarely see it in kickboxing which has faster paced footwork. Avoiding these kicks is as simple as moving from left to right, something a good striker should be doing any way

 

[DanMMAleague]

Comparing it to a armbar for example, where the goal is to hyperextend the arm and break it. Well they are the same thing right? they both hyperextend and break the joint. The difference being with an armbar, due to the pulling motion, you can tapout before breaking point. With a strike, there is no tapping out, once it lands, it lands, and the full force behind the strike is applied. If it lands clean and solid to the knee, its going to injure it.

I agree with your armbar analogy.

However, heel hooks are more similar to this kick.

In an armbar you can feel it coming on whereas with a heel hook you can feel it coming the second the tendon breaks.

I think it should legal for as long as heel hooks are.

 

[shincheckin]

I agree with your armbar analogy.

However, heel hooks are more similar to this kick.

In an armbar you can feel it coming on whereas with a heel hook you can feel it coming the second the tendon breaks.

I think it should legal for as long as heel hooks are.

I dont know much about heel hooks but any move that you cannot tapout before breaking point should be removed IMO.

 

[shincheckin]

I don't think it's a coincidence that we see this move lots in MMA and Muay Thai where lateral movement is poorer, but rarely see it in kickboxing which has faster paced footwork. Avoiding these kicks is as simple as moving from left to right, something a good striker should be doing any way

unless the kick lands on the knee when your stepping! you already know my stance on this one lol

 

[aerius]

The push kick to the knee is one of the go-to moves in Savate, yet we don't see thousands of Savateurs getting their knees blown out from the technique. Who knew that a martial art which heavily utilizes the push kick to the knee also has ways to defend it?

Push kicks to the knee work so well in MMA because fighters insist on using side-on stances which are vulnerable to the kick or walking front leg heavy straight at the guy which once again leaves the lead leg in a bad position to take the kick. Fighters with shitty stances and footwork are the ones who are being punished, and that is as it should be.

 

[shincheckin]

im still waiting to see a actual "defense" against this move to be demonstrated that isnt mere coincidence.

 

[DanMMAleague]

im still waiting to see a actual "defense" against this move to be demonstrated that isnt mere coincidence.

How about this?;



I don’t know enough about savate to know how they handle them there.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

im still waiting to see a actual "defense" against this move to be demonstrated that isnt mere coincidence.

Come on man, I think you've got your head in the sand a little here. It's like the 'McGregor can't deal with wrestlers' deal. You don't see everyone shooting on him because he operates at a range where it's hard to shoot. This is the same thing.

Look at Jones vs Gustafsson, note the lateral movement and that he is the only fighter Jones fought who didn't end up on the receiving end of those knee kicks once Jones had become proficient at them. That isn't a coincidence. Also what @aerius says about the savate fighters rings true as well. Jones had no success landing them once Gustafsson figured out that lateral movement was the key - he didn't run on to them and he didn't even have to do any particular counters like in the (admittedly good) video above.

It's not a coincidence that it works, it works because that's how fighting works, lateral movement is the best way to avoid a linear strike. If I throw a knee kick at you, and you side step out of the way and it misses, even if that was unintentional on your part it proves a way of defending the strike.

The truth with these kicks to the knees is that someone said they ruin careers enough times that now people believe it - even though it basically never happens. You avoid front kicks to the knee the same way that you avoid front kicks to the body - but for some reason fighters get all stupid and call for the move to be banned rather than actually learning to defend it - they don't even really have to adjust much to defend.

 

[shunyata]

Yes, even in catastrophic injuries it's far better to retire due ligament problems than to retire due to central nervous system injuries.

If any of you actually cared about fighter safety strikes to the head would be the first move to be banned.

 

[shunyata]

I agree with your armbar analogy.

However, heel hooks are more similar to this kick.

In an armbar you can feel it coming on whereas with a heel hook you can feel it coming the second the tendon breaks.

I think it should legal for as long as heel hooks are.

Heel hooks are exactly as dangerous as kimuras. And kimuras really are not that safe. People get injured all the time in practice but we write that off because knees are sacred I guess.

Just like savate where oblique kicks are a part of the system and people are familiar with offense and defense, the dangerous thing about heel hooks is people who don't know how to defend them and have little to no experience with them doing the wrong thing when faced with them.

 

[Strychnine]

I'm not a fan of those in the cage. They should be banned IMHO.

 

[DoctorTaco]

How about this?;



I don’t know enough about savate to know how they handle them there.

I was thinking the same thing- a switch kick is a great way to counter it. Or a Superman punch.




Personally I think it’s about targeting. Striking the knee with a push kick should be illegal, striking the thigh (which accomplishes the same goal of interrupting momentum) should be allowed.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

They've only caused a few injuries ("a few" might even be overstating it), are objectively less dangerous than kicks/punches to the head, and are a great tool for stopping an advancing opponent. No logical reason to ban them.

 

[The MM Analyst]

im still waiting to see a actual "defense" against this move to be demonstrated that isnt mere coincidence.

Valentina shat all over every linear kick Holm tried to throw at her in their fight. She easily sidestepped, pivoted away from, checked, or parried every oblique kick/side kick Holm threw. Gus killed Jones' linear kicks with lateral movement.

Here's some more clips of people defending it

 

[aerius]

im still waiting to see a actual "defense" against this move to be demonstrated that isnt mere coincidence.

Let's list off all the methods used in this fight:
1) Lots of lateral movement to deny push kick opportunities
2) Step back out of range
3) Side step around the kick
4) Step in and jam
5) Raise leg to check
6) Brace leg into direction of kick
7) Counter kick with lead leg


Valentina's counters were just posted above, so here's Rose defending against Waterson. She bounces back to open the range and take some power off the kick and braces her lead leg into it so that it can't be bent backwards. It's not hard.

 

[shincheckin]

How about this?;



I don’t know enough about savate to know how they handle them there.

they all would work in theory and definitely could work. I just dont see them as realistic. I see it quite hard to pull these off, intentionally, where the knee stomp was recognized and intentionally countered and not mistaken for something else, and the counter just happened to work. Rather than calling this move a oblique kick, lets call it knee stomp, cause thats exactly what it is. knee stomp. When its worded like that, should knee stomps be legal. no way.

 

[shincheckin]

Come on man, I think you've got your head in the sand a little here. It's like the 'McGregor can't deal with wrestlers' deal. You don't see everyone shooting on him because he operates at a range where it's hard to shoot. This is the same thing.

Look at Jones vs Gustafsson, note the lateral movement and that he is the only fighter Jones fought who didn't end up on the receiving end of those knee kicks once Jones had become proficient at them. That isn't a coincidence. Also what @aerius says about the savate fighters rings true as well. Jones had no success landing them once Gustafsson figured out that lateral movement was the key - he didn't run on to them and he didn't even have to do any particular counters like in the (admittedly good) video above.

It's not a coincidence that it works, it works because that's how fighting works, lateral movement is the best way to avoid a linear strike. If I throw a knee kick at you, and you side step out of the way and it misses, even if that was unintentional on your part it proves a way of defending the strike.

The truth with these kicks to the knees is that someone said they ruin careers enough times that now people believe it - even though it basically never happens. You avoid front kicks to the knee the same way that you avoid front kicks to the body - but for some reason fighters get all stupid and call for the move to be banned rather than actually learning to defend it - they don't even really have to adjust much to defend.

im so glad you see my point dude, with the unintentional or not. And yes your exactly right it does prove a way of defending the strike even if it was unintentional. that being said, thats exactly my point. Intentionally defending this thing is nearly impossible and a completely different thing from mistakenly/unintenionally pulling off a counter. All the MMA gifs posted on this thread are unintentional counters, some not even counters, but just people moving and reacting and the knee stomp just not landing cleanly and sliding off. I agree there are counters, I just dont see them as practical, as intentionally being able to pull them off. Regarding a front kick to the body vs a front kick to the knee. If it lands clean to the body vs clean to the knee. Its hyperextension vs getting the wind knocked out of you. The move is a high chance for injury if it lands cleanly. Im not familiar with the MMA fight you mentioned but im gonna watch it and get back with you.