Should knee kicks be legal in mma?

[shincheckin]

Let's list off all the methods used in this fight:
1) Lots of lateral movement to deny push kick opportunities
2) Step back out of range
3) Side step around the kick
4) Step in and jam
5) Raise leg to check
6) Brace leg into direction of kick
7) Counter kick with lead leg


Valentina's counters were just posted above, so here's Rose defending against Waterson. She bounces back to open the range and take some power off the kick and braces her lead leg into it so that it can't be bent backwards. It's not hard.

I stand corrected with the Savate clip. But I would still say the mma one, is unintentional.

I still dont like it, but the savate clip really did open my eyes to it. I have been meaning to watch some high level savate but never got around to it.

I know a similar "fancy" move in muay thai, stomp the opponents lead leg thigh with your rear heel, but the target is the thigh not the knee.

 

[shincheckin]

Yes, even in catastrophic injuries it's far better to retire due ligament problems than to retire due to central nervous system injuries.

If any of you actually cared about fighter safety strikes to the head would be the first move to be banned.

<45>

 

[shincheckin]

They've only caused a few injuries ("a few" might even be overstating it), are objectively less dangerous than kicks/punches to the head, and are a great tool for stopping an advancing opponent. No logical reason to ban them.

comparing the knee stomp to hits to the head is apples to oranges.

Hair pulling should be allowed in MMA, there have been no injuries and are objectively less dangerous than kicks/punches to the head. Makes no sense dude.

 

[DanMMAleague]

Let's list off all the methods used in this fight:
1) Lots of lateral movement to deny push kick opportunities
2) Step back out of range
3) Side step around the kick
4) Step in and jam
5) Raise leg to check
6) Brace leg into direction of kick
7) Counter kick with lead leg


Valentina's counters were just posted above, so here's Rose defending against Waterson. She bounces back to open the range and take some power off the kick and braces her lead leg into it so that it can't be bent backwards. It's not hard.

Great post, this is MIXED martial arts after all, if a Savate Guy is awesome at this technique I think he should have as much right to compete as a heel hook specialist like Palhares.

Also whilst wrestling coaches regularly say “don’t go into MMA you’ll get brain damage”, I rarely hear TMA coaches say “don’t go into Savate you’ll be in a wheelchair by 40”.

 

[shincheckin]

I was thinking the same thing- a switch kick is a great way to counter it. Or a Superman punch.




Personally I think it’s about targeting. Striking the knee with a push kick should be illegal, striking the thigh (which accomplishes the same goal of interrupting momentum) should be allowed.

I agree 100% about targeting the thigh. Thats how I was always taught, and how I have always seen it done. It was only on sherdog that I heard its common to teep the knee in muay thai.

here we got golden era muay thai Dany Bil using the technique to the thigh on Coban.


I have used it in fights as well

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

comparing the knee stomp to hits to the head is apples to oranges.

Hair pulling should be allowed in MMA, there have been no injuries and are objectively less dangerous than kicks/punches to the head. Makes no sense dude.

How is it apples to oranges? Since you provided no arguments to back up this statement, I'll counter it with this: it's not apples to oranges.

 

[ARIZE]

we see this move lots in Muay Thai

We do? The only thing close to it I've seen in MT is the teep to the thighs...

I've only seen it in MMA, TKD ITF as self defense technique and savate. Don't remember seen it in KB, and I'm sure I've never seen an oblique/side/stomp kick to the knee in MT...

In savate, they can get away with it because they are very light on their feet. But you can't expect that from Boxers or wrestlers in MMA... (well you can't expect nothing from boxers in general, but that's another discussion)


I don't know how I feel about it. I agree that there are ways to defend it, but I still find it a dick move (and dangerous). The few times they pulled it on me during MMA sparing, I got very annoyed. Like shincheckin says, I feel that it only takes one good stomp to do permanent damage...

 

[aerius]

We do? The only thing close to it I've seen in MT is the teep to the thighs...

I've only seen it in MMA, TKD ITF as self defense technique and savate. Don't remember seen it in KB, and I'm sure I've never seen an oblique/side/stomp kick to the knee in MT...

I don't think it's a common move or anything in MT, but it does get used from time to time.

For example, this. Singdam push kicks Saenchai in the knee several times in the first 2 rounds and he also lands a couple on the thigh.

In savate, they can get away with it because they are very light on their feet. But you can't expect that from Boxers or wrestlers in MMA... (well you can't expect nothing from boxers in general, but that's another discussion)

MMA is full of wrestle-boxers with shitty footwork, they should be punished for their sins.
If they don't want their knees broken they can stop walking in straight lines with all their weight on their front leg.

 

[ARIZE]

@aerius

I don't know man, for me those are thigh teeps. Some of them may go above the knee, but I'm not sure it's intentional. You may be right, but I'm still not convicted. And the way he throws them is more for disruption of the rhythm than for damage. He doesn't go "through" with it.
But still, I was talking about the side kick or oblique/stomp kick. The ones that your foot is side ways (inward or outwards). I've never seen one of those in MT.

MMA is full of wrestle-boxers with shitty footwork, they should be punished for their sins.
If they don't want their knees broken they can stop walking in straight lines with all their weight on their front leg.

Won't argue with that...

 

[shincheckin]

I don't think it's a common move or anything in MT, but it does get used from time to time.

For example, this. Singdam push kicks Saenchai in the knee several times in the first 2 rounds and he also lands a couple on the thigh.




MMA is full of wrestle-boxers with shitty footwork, they should be punished for their sins.
If they don't want their knees broken they can stop walking in straight lines with all their weight on their front leg.

@aerius

I don't know man, for me those are thigh teeps. Some of them may go above the knee, but I'm not sure it's intentional. You may be right, but I'm still not convicted. And the way he throws them is more for disruption of the rhythm than for damage. He doesn't go "through" with it.
But still, I was talking about the side kick or oblique/stomp kick. The ones that your foot is side ways (inward or outwards). I've never seen one of those in MT.



Won't argue with that...

exactly as arize has mentioned. Look like thigh teeps, or were originally aimed at the thigh but missed target. Also the intention is disruption rather than knee breaking.

 

[shincheckin]

How is it apples to oranges? Since you provided no arguments to back up this statement, I'll counter it with this: it's not apples to oranges.

getting hit in the head (apples) is different than breaking a joint (oranges). The point of MT or Kickboxing is to KO the opponent. MMA is to KO/Tapout. BJJ moves allow a tapout option before limb snapping. Strikes to joints do not. Getting kicked and punched are part of the game, thats what makes it fighting. But theres got to be a certain cut off point, such as why soccer kicks to the head are illegal for example. Ill use a different analogy this time.

eye gouging should be allowed in MMA, they are objectively less dangerous than kicks/punches to the head. Would you rather get an eye poked out or suffer serious brain damage?

There are plenty of ways to counter the eye poke such as:

1) Lots of lateral movement to deny eye gouging opportunities
2) Step back out of range
3) Side step around the eye gouge
4) Step in and jam the eye gouge
5) head movement
6) bob and weave
7) Counter eye gouge with counter eye gouge.

If they don't want their eyes gouged out they can learn how to use head movement.


So why not have eye gouges? Its a fight right, a fight is a fight, so let them fight and let them eye gouge as its a legitimate technique. If they didnt want to risk getting their eyes gouged out, they shouldnt be fighting.

as we can see here, the eye gouge is commonly used in MMA by Jon Jones, and there have been no serious injuries. ( eye gouging is a dirty cheap move, performed by Jon Jones, wait a second, isnt he the same guy using the knee stomp?!)

and as you can see here, the eye gouge can easily be defended/countered against. Its just that its not common in MMA so guys dont train for it, but if you train for it, it can easily be defended against

and as we can see here and throughout the entire video, the eye gouge can easily be avoided by simple headmovement.





obviously this whole eye gauge argument is bullshit, same goes for knee stomp. Although not to the same extent as an eye gauge but you get my point.

sorry for the rant dude, i think everyone has legitimate points but i dont like the risk it involves.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

is that what they do in Savate?

And didnt Robert whittaker do that to Romero.

 

[dudeguyman]

Joe Rogan and Firas got into the debate on the JRE last week;



Shameless plug for my instagram account, I break down some ways they can be attacked and defended against;



Of course it's a bit different in Muay Thai because knee attacks are illegal and they target the thigh but many of the same principles apply.

My $0.02 is that they shouldn't be illegal because they are hard to pull off and don't cause a devastating injury every time.

I'd say so far in MMA history heel hooks have so far caused more injuries.

Of course its conceivable if people start getting injured left right and centre from them I could reassess my views but I don't see the evidence there to ban them as things stand.

What do you think?

Kick their fucking knees out.

 

[shincheckin]

did this once a very long time ago in play sparring. but again the target is the leg/thigh.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

We do? The only thing close to it I've seen in MT is the teep to the thighs...

I've only seen it in MMA, TKD ITF as self defense technique and savate. Don't remember seen it in KB, and I'm sure I've never seen an oblique/side/stomp kick to the knee in MT...

In savate, they can get away with it because they are very light on their feet. But you can't expect that from Boxers or wrestlers in MMA... (well you can't expect nothing from boxers in general, but that's another discussion)


I don't know how I feel about it. I agree that there are ways to defend it, but I still find it a dick move (and dangerous). The few times they pulled it on me during MMA sparing, I got very annoyed. Like shincheckin says, I feel that it only takes one good stomp to do permanent damage...

It's the same technique - everyone seems to think that this is some sort of attack directly to the knee cap but it's not

 

[AndyMaBobs]

im so glad you see my point dude, with the unintentional or not. And yes your exactly right it does prove a way of defending the strike even if it was unintentional. that being said, thats exactly my point. Intentionally defending this thing is nearly impossible and a completely different thing from mistakenly/unintenionally pulling off a counter. All the MMA gifs posted on this thread are unintentional counters, some not even counters, but just people moving and reacting and the knee stomp just not landing cleanly and sliding off. I agree there are counters, I just dont see them as practical, as intentionally being able to pull them off. Regarding a front kick to the body vs a front kick to the knee. If it lands clean to the body vs clean to the knee. Its hyperextension vs getting the wind knocked out of you. The move is a high chance for injury if it lands cleanly. Im not familiar with the MMA fight you mentioned but im gonna watch it and get back with you.

But they're not unintentional. MMA camps gameplan to avoid these techniques.

Look at the Valentina counters, she times them - look at the Savate guys, that technique is a known and popular move in their sport and they purposefully defend them - just because you're not able to pull it off yet, doesn't mean that it can't be done.

None of these arguments for the move being banned have any factual basis, it's not even like it's really retiring anyone. Rampage is still fighting and he's the guy that bitched about them being career enders because he famously already had bad knees... he is fine.

 

[William Huggins]

they all would work in theory and definitely could work. I just dont see them as realistic. I see it quite hard to pull these off, intentionally, where the knee stomp was recognized and intentionally countered and not mistaken for something else, and the counter just happened to work. Rather than calling this move a oblique kick, lets call it knee stomp, cause thats exactly what it is. knee stomp. When its worded like that, should knee stomps be legal. no way.

You would have to stop teeps to the thigh because it might miss or how about inside leg kicks incase you hit the groin? I wouldn't worry, about it, someone will come up with an interesting counter that will make them pay......

 

[Crimson Glory]

Yes.

 

[spacetime]

Not as long as joint manipulation is illegal.

 

[CFGroup]

Bring back eye gauges and groin strikes and hitting the back of the head....It's a fight right?

Fight on hardwood floors...It's a fight right?

Knee's are fucking fragile and easy to hit.

None of us has lost a year training from knee injuries that seemed to happen out of no where?

Bring back eye gauges and groin strikes and hitting the back of the head!