Should knee kicks be legal in mma?

[shincheckin]

Basically you have to tap when someone immobilizes you in any one of the various "heelhook positions" if you wait to tap when they apply the actual finish, then yeah it's too late.

I would personally rather be blasted in the knee with a kick than have a heelhook assassin latch onto one of my legs, but that's just my experience lol

I believe he is referring to American Kickboxing Academy, which is notorious for their fighters sustaining knee injuries during camp.

American Kickboxing Academy. MMA camp that's infamous for caveman training methods which wreck all of their fighters' knees.

the heel hook is frequently brought up in this discussion, and thats kinda what i got from it. if you get in that position, and try and resist, like you would in a armbar for example, your gonna get a injury. Which like you said means once in that position, you better tap. Still with the strike, there is not even the option of getting into that position, the strike comes when it comes, any moment, any position, with no time to tap vs very little.

all things considered, if heel hooks are this dangerous, perhaps they should be removed as well.

AKA, thats what popped into my head, american kickboxing academy, i didnt know anything about their training methods. But I was thinking I was wrong with AKA, like maybe it was some MMA thing.

 

[Chungungo]

walking around knee stomping everyone as much as possible isnt going to make you champion, although Im sure youll end a few guys careers along the way. But theres much more to it to become champion than that. It is common in savate which is something I was unaware of. So that did open my eyes more so to others view points. However in savate, the target is the thigh, not the knee. savate was created for street fighting originally or something along those lines as well.

Come on, a pro can defend about that, won´t end the fight like in the street.
And love that episode!

 

[shincheckin]

Come on, a pro can defend about that, won´t end the fight like in the street.
And love that episode!

I think you missed my entire argument, is that the move is very difficult to defend/counter against intentionally. Also I have shown many examples of it ending a fight, or how just a little more pressure or a more cleanly landed direct hit, would have done the same. I really dont feel like repeating 6 pages lol

To protect players from potentially catastrophic injury, there should be some restrictions on strikes and submissions.

 

[shincheckin]

how about this one @AndyMaBobs

 

[jlagman]

I don't like them in fights, but I despise them in training.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

how about this one @AndyMaBobs

And have either of these men been retired because of them?

 

[shincheckin]

And have either of these men been retired because of them?

I have no idea, but the guy is obviously injured. Why do we never see it happen. We do see it happen. But were not talking about careers being ended, despite the potential for that to happen. Were talking injury from it. The potential for injury with the move is very high, the gifs I posted earlier, although no injury was there, just a bit more force, and we would have the same result as this one. Thats the whole thing with this move, the potential for a serious knee injury is there. Theres really no way of telling what type of injury this guy got. We can tell by him rolling around in pain that he is injured for sure. Lets say this guy wasnt injured to the point of retiring or having a torn ACL or Meniscus, lets just say, it injured him, he limped for 2 weeks, and was back to normal after that. Still a pretty lackluster way to end a fight. I have no idea who these guys are though or what promotion it is, i just randomly found that gif. Considering how little the move is used (outside of savate) and the amount of injuries guys have gotten from it. I think its safe to say the chance for injury with the move is high.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I have no idea, but the guy is obviously injured. Why do we never see it happen. We do see it happen. But were not talking about careers being ended, despite the potential for that to happen. Were talking injury from it. The potential for injury with the move is very high, the gifs I posted earlier, although no injury was there, just a bit more force, and we would have the same result as this one. Thats the whole thing with this move, the potential for a serious knee injury is there. Theres really no way of telling what type of injury this guy got. We can tell by him rolling around in pain that he is injured for sure. Lets say this guy wasnt injured to the point of retiring or having a torn ACL or Meniscus, lets just say, it injured him, he limped for 2 weeks, and was back to normal after that. Still a pretty lackluster way to end a fight. I have no idea who these guys are though or what promotion it is, i just randomly found that gif. Considering how little the move is used (outside of savate) and the amount of injuries guys have gotten from it. I think its safe to say the chance for injury with the move is high.

But there isn't a high amount of injuries that's my point. I can name 3, Wonderboy, Miguel Torres (that guy) and Bobby Knuckles - who already had a knee injury when he got hurt by Yoel. You always say that this move is really damaging and everyones getting hurt from it... but they're not. It's very rare, it's just a sensationalised event.

Not only that but Miguel Torres lost that fight on a decision, his knee didn't break or snap or anything. I have no doubt it hurt and yes I wouldn't be surprised if he did sustain an injury for that but that gif in isolation isn't a good indicator either

It's like in professional wrestling, AJ Styles injured three people in close succession with his signature move the Styles clash:

Because of the three injuries in a short span of time there were a lot of people saying the move should be retired... but it wasn't and since then nobody has been injured by that move, and no one had been injured by it before hand either - keep in mind he does that move literally every wrestling match and he was at that point in time wrestling matches 3+ times a week.

It was just being sensationalised by the press and by people on internet forums... like what we're doing with knee kicks right now

Keep in mind Nate Diaz got hit dead on by one and was fine, and he got hit with it at the worst angle you could possibly take it. Whether its a lack luster way to end a fight shouldn't be relevant to the discussion at all - that's just moving the goal posts.

 

[shincheckin]

But there isn't a high amount of injuries that's my point. I can name 3, Wonderboy, Miguel Torres (that guy) and Bobby Knuckles - who already had a knee injury when he got hurt by Yoel. You always say that this move is really damaging and everyones getting hurt from it... but they're not. It's very rare, it's just a sensationalised event.

Not only that but Miguel Torres lost that fight on a decision, his knee didn't break or snap or anything. I have no doubt it hurt and yes I wouldn't be surprised if he did sustain an injury for that but that gif in isolation isn't a good indicator either

It's like in professional wrestling, AJ Styles injured three people in close succession with his signature move the Styles clash:

Because of the three injuries in a short span of time there were a lot of people saying the move should be retired... but it wasn't and since then nobody has been injured by that move, and no one had been injured by it before hand either - keep in mind he does that move literally every wrestling match and he was at that point in time wrestling matches 3+ times a week.

It was just being sensationalised by the press and by people on internet forums... like what we're doing with knee kicks right now

Keep in mind Nate Diaz got hit dead on by one and was fine, and he got hit with it at the worst angle you could possibly take it. Whether its a lack luster way to end a fight shouldn't be relevant to the discussion at all - that's just moving the goal posts.

i see your points and think they are valid and will agree with you with just about everything you said. I still dont like it and think the potential for a bad injury is there for sure but everything you said makes sense.

Dude, im a master field goal kicker! <Lmaoo>

 

[wstewart]

I think where the contention is coming from in this thread is that the oblique kick is being categorized as a knee stomp when it's actually just a teep to the leg.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/6Lpf1vwr658

Wonderboy was injured from a sidekick to the knee which generates a lot more power at least when I throw it. I learned my sidekick from tae kwon do before I ever took a Muay Thai class though.

 

[shincheckin]

I think where the contention is coming from in this thread is that the oblique kick is being categorized as a knee stomp when it's actually just a teep to the leg.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/6Lpf1vwr658

Wonderboy was injured from a sidekick to the knee which generates a lot more power at least when I throw it. I learned my sidekick from tae kwon do before I ever took a Muay Thai class though.

thats a good point, im fine with teeps to the thigh, however in MT its the lead leg teep, to the lead leg thigh, generally. Even when its thrown in this "teep" style, the way jon jones does it, with the rear leg to lead leg, with the foot sideways a bit, with the sole of the foot, rather than the ball of the foot, its different.

The way alot of guys are doing it in MMA, is with the rear leg to lead leg, like i just said, although its not a sidekick, the impact is more similar to a sidekick than a teep with the ball of the foot, also in MMA it seems guys are targeting the knee rather than thigh.

im done beating a dead horse in @AndyMaBobs but I could use the same rationale below for eye pokes, there has been no injuries from it. I do understand and see exaclty what you mean though, and your right there hasnt been many injuries from it.

But there isn't a high amount of injuries that's my point

 

[shincheckin]

look what I found guys, speak of the devil aye?

Compare this style of teep to the thigh (lead leg to lead leg with ball of foot)

vs

MMA style (rear leg angled to the side, to lead leg, striking with sole of foot)

 

[shincheckin]

here is a very old video on thigh teep defense, I have done this play sparring with
C-Mack.

do this same move on jon jones oblique kick, and I'll quote winklejohn "your going to ruin the knee"

 

[shincheckin]

I think where the contention is coming from in this thread is that the oblique kick is being categorized as a knee stomp when it's actually just a teep to the leg.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/6Lpf1vwr658

Wonderboy was injured from a sidekick to the knee which generates a lot more power at least when I throw it. I learned my sidekick from tae kwon do before I ever took a Muay Thai class though.

Im going to have to disagree with you, and agree with what Jon Jones that in MMA the target is the knee. check the video you posted at 0:27 seconds in. They even say in the video twice "your going to ruin the guys knee"

 

[wstewart]

Im going to have to disagree with you, and agree with what Jon Jones that in MMA the target is the knee. check the video you posted at 0:27 seconds in. They even say in the video twice "your going to ruin the guys knee"

Well he said the target is the upper thigh but he said that you can also target the inside and outside of the knee. I don't doubt it could do damage to the knee. I think a regular side kick would do a lot more damage though I'd still probably include both in my self defense repertoire. I do see what you're saying about the odd angle and hitting with the sole of the foot as well. That's probably meant specifically for targeting the knee whereas the ball of the foot is hard and would be better suited targeting the thigh.

 

[shincheckin]

Well he said the target is the upper thigh but he said that you can also target the inside and outside of the knee. I don't doubt it could do damage to the knee. I think a regular side kick would do a lot more damage though I'd still probably include both in my self defense repertoire. I do see what you're saying about the odd angle and hitting with the sole of the foot as well. That's probably meant specifically for targeting the knee whereas the ball of the foot is hard and would be better suited targeting the thigh.

yeah winklejohn said to target the thigh, then later he points out targeting the knee at an angle and how it will "ruin it". So even the dude that is advocating this move, acknowledges that it will ruin someones knee. But Jon Jones stated "teep to the knee" I dont doubt thats where he targets it.

I was taught something similar in Muay Thai years ago, its quit painfull too, but its a heel stomp to the lead leg thigh with your rear leg, its similar to this, but you raise your leg much higher and stomp downards, to the thigh, basically giving them a mean dead leg to the thigh with your heel. Its thrown with much more of an arc like a "rainbow", where as jon jones and the rest are throwing the kick much more horizontally.

 

[Rayess]

should be fucking illegal... that's it