So what the hell was Gary Tonon thinking vs. Kron at ADCC?

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trustdoesntrust

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I've been wondering this since I first saw the match live:

Starting at 8:38:


Tonon has just taken Kron's back, and Kron eventually escapes. So the match goes out of bounds and is restarted in the middle with Tonon on top and Kron in seated guard. Tonon is up 6-0 and, though it's hard to tell exactly, there's obviously not much time left. So the match is Tonon's to win-- all he has to do is survive and he's pulled off a legendary come-from-behind upset-- but for reasons I can't figure out he drops back for one of the most telegraphed leglock attempts I've ever seen in a high level match. Kron sees it coming a mile away, and almost immediately passes Tonon's guard, takes his back, and the match is over just like that.

So, what was Tonon thinking going for this leglock? Did he feel more comfortable riding out the match from his back than on top since leglocks are a big part of his game? Has anybody heard him talk about this match, specifically the ending portion?
 
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trustdoesntrust said:
I've been wondering this since I first saw the match live:

Starting at 8:38:


Tonon has just taken Kron's back, and Kron eventually escapes. So the match goes out of bounds and is restarted in the middle with Tonon on top and Kron in seated guard. Tonon is up 6-0 and, though it's hard to tell exactly, there's obviously not much time left. So the match is Tonon's to win-- all he has to do is survive and he's pulled off a legendary come-from-behind upset-- but for reasons I can't figure out he drops back for one of the most telegraphed leglock attempts I've ever seen in a high level match. Kron sees it coming a mile away, and almost immediately passes Tonon's guard, takes his back, and the match is over just like that.

So, what the hell was Tonon thinking going for this leglock? Did he feel more comfortable riding out the match from his back than on top since leglocks are a big part of his game? Did he psyche himself out? Has anybody heard him talk about this match, specifically the ending portion?
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It's because Tonon gives zero fucks. It what makes him an exciting competitor. He just wants to get out there and grapple. It's rare. And sometimes it doesn't pay off. But it's awesome.

 
Guys like Tonon and Kron who constantly go for the submission are what make grappling exciting, the dudes who just score an advantage and coast make grappling matches real boring. I'm a big fan of his grappling style.
 
Mike Piekarski said:
Guys like Tonon and Kron who constantly go for the submission are what make grappling exciting, the dudes who just score an advantage and coast make grappling matches real boring. I'm a big fan of his grappling style.
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fair enough, but why did he go for such a telegraphed, half-hearted leglock from a neutral position? if you watch the attempt, his legs are super loose and he seems to hesitate before jumping on it. right before the restart he also appears to grab the ankle, which seemed to further telegraph what he would do right afterward. i understand fighting for the finish, but this seems like a desperation tactic one would choose if DOWN 6-0 with less than a minute remaining against one of the best grapplers in the world, rather than a few seconds away from a monumental upset.
 
trustdoesntrust said:
I've been wondering this since I first saw the match live:

Starting at 8:38:


Tonon has just taken Kron's back, and Kron eventually escapes. So the match goes out of bounds and is restarted in the middle with Tonon on top and Kron in seated guard. Tonon is up 6-0 and, though it's hard to tell exactly, there's obviously not much time left. So the match is Tonon's to win-- all he has to do is survive and he's pulled off a legendary come-from-behind upset-- but for reasons I can't figure out he drops back for one of the most telegraphed leglock attempts I've ever seen in a high level match. Kron sees it coming a mile away, and almost immediately passes Tonon's guard, takes his back, and the match is over just like that.

So, what was Tonon thinking going for this leglock? Did he feel more comfortable riding out the match from his back than on top since leglocks are a big part of his game? Has anybody heard him talk about this match, specifically the ending portion?
Click to expand...


Some guys just don't understand the concept of winning on points. If they do, it's just a by product of their efforts of tapping you. Some guys style is just about getting the tap. I don't blame him. Sure he didn't win, but he gained the respect of the grappling community big time.
 
He went for the kill, not for the points, respect to anyone who plays like that.
 
trustdoesntrust said:
fair enough, but why did he go for such a telegraphed, half-hearted leglock from a neutral position? if you watch the attempt, his legs are super loose and he seems to hesitate before jumping on it. right before the restart he also appears to grab the ankle, which seemed to further telegraph what he would do right afterward. i understand fighting for the finish, but this seems like a desperation tactic one would choose if DOWN 6-0 with less than a minute remaining against one of the best grapplers in the world, rather than a few seconds away from a monumental upset.
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Obviously you should come to Jersey and show Gary the proper way to go for a leg lock. I think he teaches in East Brunswick.
 
Yeah I mean Tonon is a lot like Bill Cooper and some others. Marcelo Garcia--people that will go for the finish always. that just always go for the finish in every situation. It's fun to watch, and sometimes guys like that will drop some matches now and then, but it's cool to see. Tonon and his coach both talked about the Kron match on a podcast. It is what it is. Tonon wanted to finish, and maybe "objectively" it wasn't the best idea to fall on a leglock, but he's comfortable with them.

Tonon and Cooper actually had a nice sub only match last weekend and Tonon got a heel hook after fighting off some solid toehold, darce, and guillotine attempts. He feels obviously good attacking the feet. It definitely sucks to lose with 3 seconds left but it was a bad ass match.
 
Drew Foster said:
Tonon and Cooper actually had a nice sub only match last weekend and Tonon got a heel hook after fighting off some solid toehold, darce, and guillotine attempts. He feels obviously good attacking the feet. It definitely sucks to lose with 3 seconds left but it was a bad ass match.
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Tonon subbed Coop? That's a nice feather in his cap. Tonon is notoriously hard to submit. Watch his matches in the BJJ Kumite. It's ridiculous how many submissions he escapes when they look fully locked.

I don't think his heel hook attempt was as sloppy and half hearted as TS is suggesting (unless he can read minds). I think Kron was also ready for it.
 
I believe he was thinking, "I'm schooling the great Kron Gracie. Damn, I'm gangster. Do the leglock, Gary. It will be super badass.".
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
Tonon subbed Coop? That's a nice feather in his cap. Tonon is notoriously hard to submit. Watch his matches in the BJJ Kumite. It's ridiculous how many submissions he escapes when they look fully locked.

I don't think his heel hook attempt was as sloppy and half hearted as TS is suggesting (unless he can read minds). I think Kron was also ready for it.
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It just struck me as very low-percentage considering the situation, which is why I almost wonder if he somehow thought he was losing considering Kron's earlier dominance that is of course unscored under ADCC's unusual rules. Either way, it was the turning point in the match, which is why I'm so curious about what was going through his head. It's also fascinating to me because it seemed to violate the sacred old school BJJ tenant of position before submission (plus the old school BJJ corollary that you should never give up position unless you're sure you have the sub). Kron, having a decidedly old school game, took full advantage of this violation.
 
SuperSuperRambo said:
Tonon subbed Coop? That's a nice feather in his cap. Tonon is notoriously hard to submit. Watch his matches in the BJJ Kumite. It's ridiculous how many submissions he escapes when they look fully locked.

I don't think his heel hook attempt was as sloppy and half hearted as TS is suggesting (unless he can read minds). I think Kron was also ready for it.
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Yeah man, you should be able to get a free trial. That's what I did. It was basically a nogi sub only, no time limit tournament, and they both subbed 2 people to get to the finals. If you can't see it, it was pretty short. Like I said, Coop spent most of his time on top, trying to bait some kimuras, and attacking some toe holds. He got the mount and I think tried a triangle and then tried dismounting into some darces. Tonon played from the bottom nice and tight, and eventually locked up the legs and got a reverse heel hook.



TheSubmissionCh said:
Link to podcast?

Also, always go for the kill. Always.
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I think it's here with his coach actually

http://www.openmatradio.com/2013/11/01/episode-89-tom-deblass/
 
I had a chat with him soon after this match.

He said he misjudged the time and that he definitely would not have tapped had he known how much time was left.

He is a nice guy and very tough. He even gave Buchecha a hard time and he felt fucked by that point.

I don't have a problem with anyone winning on points if they are actively trying to climb the ladder of positions. If the person gets a sweep or a takedown and then stalls the rest of the match then that isn't cool.

The statistics show that people who are ahead on points are most likely to get the submission. Most of the good guys good up the ladder when getting the submission and don't give up position to do so.

Its easy to slam anyone that wins on points but its not easy when you are ahead and tired as fuck with only a little time left. You can take big risks and perhaps get submitted or losing position and lose or be assured of a win.
 
Tonon beating my man crush definitely elevated him in my book.

Every time I watch Krons ADCC matches I just can't believe he won. He came so close to losing to pull out the last second sub. Those matches are a good example of why you should never cruise in a match
 
I think it is tonon's style. He wants to be in a fight and go for the submission. He doesn't just want to win on points or play it safe.

It was one of the best matches I saw this past year.
 
how come it was 6-0 for him though?
Kron mounted him for a good while, is it that rule that says the first 2 minutes don't count?
 
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