Spain to Push for European Recognition of Palestine: We May Go It Alone if That Fails

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

nobody "deserves" a homeland..... thats as stupid as the "Israel has a right to exist" statement. No nation has a right to exist, it either exists or it doesnt.

I get what you're saying and I actually kind of agree. Israel has solidified their position in the world since then though.

 

[Islam Imamate]

You mean after every nation around them got their shit kicked in for starting shit? Yeah when you lose a war, sometimes you lose a little land.

Unless you're referring to something else?

The nations around them didn't start shit, they intervened in the 1948 Palestine war because the Zionists were ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. Of course they had ulterior motives, both when it comes to Palestine and their neighbors, but their official and unified reason was to protect the Palestinians from the ethnic cleansing of the Zionists.

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

The entire movement for the creation of a homeland for the Jews is known as Zionism, that is what you don't seem to understand. They are one and the same. You can't dislike Zionism, the movement for the creation of a homeland for the Jews, but support their goal. Its nonsensical.

Maybe I so often hear people use Zionist in a derrogtary manner that I distance myself from certain actions taken? I can support Israel becoming a nation without supporting everything they've done in the process. We on the same page now?

Doesn't matter if there's never been a nation-state there.

I guess because you say so....

When you later refer to the quasi state. Was it known as the kingdom of Palestine?

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

The nations around them didn't start shit, they intervened in the 1948 Palestine war because the Zionists were ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. Of course they had ulterior motives, both when it comes to Palestine and their neighbors, but their official and unified reason was to protect the Palestinians from the ethnic cleansing of the Zionists.

On 15 May 1948, the ongoing civil war transformed into an inter-state conflict between Israel and the Arab states, following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day. A combined invasion by Egypt, Jordan and Syria, together with expeditionary forces from Iraq, entered Palestine.

Yeah they all enter Palestine the day after Israel declares its independence. It's totally due to ethnic cleansing tho...

 

[ocfightfan]

Interesting, @oleDirtyBast4rd would not answer these two simple questions. Maybe you would like a shot.

Do you deny that in 450 BC, Herodotus referred to the area between Egypt and Phoenicia as Palestine?

Do you further deny that around 340 BC, Aristotle referred to the Dead Sea as "a lake in Palestine?"

Do you deny that in 1208 BC the Egyptians called the land Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

Or the fact that in 800 BC the Moabites called the land Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele

And followup questions. The Arabs control 99%+ of the land in the M.E., why do you believe that the world needs another Arab state? Do you think when Israel is eliminated and the paleostinians are running things that the world will really be a better place? Will palestine be a peaceful and prosperous arab democracy where minority rights are fully protected? (LOL)

And what happens to the Jews who currently live in Israel? Ejected to become refugees and second class citizens in other countries? Second class citizens in another fucked up arab state where they can be killed at any moment if the larger population needs to vent it's frustrations? Exterminated?

You love bashing Israel and indicting Zionists, but you never say what will happen if you get your way. Do you even know?

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

Do you deny that in 1208 BC the Egyptians called the land Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

Or the fact that in 800 BC the Moabites called the land Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele

And followup questions. The Arabs control 99%+ of the land in the M.E., why do you believe that the world needs another Arab state? Do you think when Israel is eliminated and the paleostinians are running things that the world will really be a better place? Will palestine be a peaceful and prosperous arab democracy where minority rights are fully protected? (LOL)

And what happens to the Jews who currently live in Israel? Ejected to become refugees and second class citizens in other countries? Second class citizens in another fucked up arab state where they can be killed at any moment if the larger population needs to vent it's frustrations? Exterminated?

You love bashing Israel and indicting Zionists, but you never say what will happen if you get your way. Do you even know?

Great post

 

[Islam Imamate]

Maybe I so often hear people use Zionist in a derrogtary manner that I distance myself from certain actions taken? I can support Israel becoming a nation without supporting everything they've done in the process. We on the same page now?

Israel becoming a nation required the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, that's why the entire project was morally bankrupt to begin with. To support the former means to support the latter.

I guess because you say so....

You're free to make an argument to the contrary if you'd like

When you later refer to the quasi state. Was it known as the kingdom of Palestine?

It was a quasi-state because for most of its existence it was formally a part of the Ottoman Empire but real authority was exercised by Zahir. He even defeated Ottoman forces multiple times before the revolt, he just never declared outright independence until he had the support of the Russians and al Kabir.

On 15 May 1948, the ongoing civil war transformed into an inter-state conflict between Israel and the Arab states, following the Israeli Declaration of Independence the previous day. A combined invasion by Egypt, Jordan and Syria, together with expeditionary forces from Iraq, entered Palestine.

Yeah they all enter Palestine the day after Israel declares its independence. It's totally due to ethnic cleansing tho...

It was

May 14 marks the 70th anniversary of Israel’s founding; May 15 is a day Palestinians know as their nakba, or “catastrophe,” the traumatic expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes in 1948 by Israelis.

To understand the nakba is to first confront its sheer scale and totality. Before the nakba, there was a large, deeply rooted, and essentially ancient Arab society in most of what, within a few months, became the Jewish state of Israel. In effect, one day it was there, as it had been for living memory, and the next day it was gone. An entire society, with the exception of relatively small groups in a few places, simply vanished.

Fighting intensified in January 1948, and the Palestinian exodus began. Up to 100,000 Palestinians, mainly from the upper and middle classes, fled the cities and towns which were the epicenter of the fighting. Until then, expulsions were rare. But in April 1948, the Jewish forces launched a more concerted campaign of massacre and forced displacement, including the notorious Deir Yassin massacre of about 100 Palestinians on April 9. This spread panic among Palestinians, encouraging them to flee.

When terror didn’t do the trick, Palestinians were forced out by Jewish militias. Early April saw the launch of the “Plan Dalet” military campaign, which sought, in part, the ethnic cleansing of most or all of the Arab inhabitants from areas claimed for a Jewish state. As the British withdrew from Palestine in early May 1948, Israel declared its establishment, and the war intensified with the intervention of several Arab armies. The process of Palestinian displacement also intensified. Yitzhak Rabin, then a young Jewish commander, would later write in his memoir of how he was ordered by David Ben-Gurion—literally with the wave of a hand—to “drive out” the 50,000 civilians in the towns of Lydda and Ramla on June 10 and 11.

 

[abiG]

Do you deny that in 1208 BC the Egyptians called the land Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

Or the fact that in 800 BC the Moabites called the land Israel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele

And followup questions. The Arabs control 99%+ of the land in the M.E., why do you believe that the world needs another Arab state? Do you think when Israel is eliminated and the paleostinians are running things that the world will really be a better place? Will palestine be a peaceful and prosperous arab democracy where minority rights are fully protected? (LOL)

And what happens to the Jews who currently live in Israel? Ejected to become refugees and second class citizens in other countries? Second class citizens in another fucked up arab state where they can be killed at any moment if the larger population needs to vent it's frustrations? Exterminated?

You love bashing Israel and indicting Zionists, but you never say what will happen if you get your way. Do you even know?

From your link:

"Israel"
Petrie called upon Wilhelm Spiegelberg, a German philologist in his archaeological team, to translate the inscription. Spiegelberg was puzzled by one symbol towards the end, that of a people or tribe whom Merneptah (also written Merenptah) had victoriously smitten—I.si.ri.ar? Petrie quickly suggested that it read "Israel!" Spiegelberg agreed that this translation must be correct.[1] "Won't the reverends be pleased?" remarked Petrie. At dinner that evening, Petrie who realized the importance of the find said: "This stele will be better known in the world than anything else I have found." The news of its discovery made headlines when it reached the English papers.[1]

Whatever. And wiki is NOT an encyclopedia. It is edited by anyone for crying out loud.

Look, there are multiple EXTRA-BIBLICAL LEGITIMATE references to Palestine going back 1000s of years. Israel, well, just no.

But you fools do this on every thread and it's dumb as fuck.

I must ask again, how crazy it is to claim land some relation to you might have had 3000 years ago? Ridiculous, right? I mean does that mean all of us who came over here from Asia 1000s of years ago can now go steal homes in China?

 

[ocfightfan]

The entire movement for the creation of a homeland for the Jews is known as Zionism, that is what you don't seem to understand. They are one and the same. You can't dislike Zionism, the movement for the creation of a homeland for the Jews, but support their goal. Its nonsensical.

The existence of the Palestinian people. The territory was controlled by the Ottomans but do you really think the people living on the land thought of themselves as Ottomans? Do you think they spoke the Palestinian dialect of Arabic or Ottoman Turkish?

The official reason for the creation of the Mandate of Palestine was to facilitate the eventual self-determination of the people living there. Unfortunately the British horribly mismanaged the mandate and that sowed the seeds of the perpetual conflict to this day, only one among many lies peddled by the European colonialists that have reverberations in the region to this day.

Doesn't matter if there's never been a nation-state there. Nation-states are a relatively recent phenomenon and in the vast majority of cases they are unprecedented but emerged from the cultural milieu of a preexisting people. The Kingdom of Israel was itself not a nation-state so the same applies to Israel. There existed a Palestinian people who were promised a nation-state by the British, therefore there should be a Palestine.

But since you're so preoccupied with the idea of a state there was in fact a quasi-autonomous state in the region under the control of Zahir al Umar who even attempted a revolt with the support of the Russian Empire and the ruler of Egypt, Ali Bey al Kabir, thus briefly creating an independent state in historic Palestine. The Zaydani clan from which he hailed still lives in Palestine today.

So you only count the historical period between ancient Israels end, and modern Israels beginning as valid, interesting. And the fact that there were always Jews living in the land under the occupation of the Greeks, Romans, and Arabs means nothing.

The Arabs got the land by conquest, and that's okay, but if the Jews take it back by conquest that's wrong. Though I would point out that a majority of the gains have come from either legal purchases (until the paleostinians made it a capital offense to sell land to Jews) or from fighting off attacks by the Arabs that were powered by genocidal intent.

What makes you think that the "Palestinians", if they were to get their land back, would be peaceful and equipped to run things in a way that would provide for and respect the rights of their own people and minorities? What documentation and behavior can you cite from them that would be a basis for thinking so?





They haven't even shown that they can treat their own people well, much less Jews who would be a minority if they took over.

 

[abiG]

And followup questions. The Arabs control 99%+ of the land in the M.E., why do you believe that the world needs another Arab state?

I don't even look at it like that; zionists do.

To me this is a simple and obvious human rights issue. It's pathetic how the zionists drag all the religious bullshit in and make Jews look like inhumane monsters, but here we are.

Do you think when Israel is eliminated and the paleostinians are running things that the world will really be a better place? Will palestine be a peaceful and prosperous arab democracy where minority rights are fully protected? (LOL)

And what happens to the Jews who currently live in Israel? Ejected to become refugees and second class citizens in other countries? Second class citizens in another fucked up arab state where they can be killed at any moment if the larger population needs to vent it's frustrations? Exterminated?

You love bashing Israel and indicting Zionists, but you never say what will happen if you get your way. Do you even know?

My way, as explained here more thn a few times is the same solution many of our Rabbis support. In short, one democratic state after a peaceful dismantling of the zionist regime. Internationally administered and secured elections must follow immediately (hopefully they can do better there than we do here).

And you don't get it. The rest of the world is clear on Palestine. Only Israel and her vassals are left.

Note that Columbia is now in so South America is 100% on board.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-palestine-as-a-state/?utm_term=.4e3200065e6a

 

[ocfightfan]

From your link:

"Israel"
Petrie called upon Wilhelm Spiegelberg, a German philologist in his archaeological team, to translate the inscription. Spiegelberg was puzzled by one symbol towards the end, that of a people or tribe whom Merneptah (also written Merenptah) had victoriously smitten—I.si.ri.ar? Petrie quickly suggested that it read "Israel!" Spiegelberg agreed that this translation must be correct.[1] "Won't the reverends be pleased?" remarked Petrie. At dinner that evening, Petrie who realized the importance of the find said: "This stele will be better known in the world than anything else I have found." The news of its discovery made headlines when it reached the English papers.[1]

Whatever. And wiki is NOT an encyclopedia. It is edited by anyone for crying out loud.

Look, there are multiple EXTRA-BIBLICAL LEGITIMATE references to Palestine going back 1000s of years. Israel, well, just no.

But you fools do this on every thread and it's dumb as fuck.

I must ask again, how crazy it is to claim land some relation to you might have had 3000 years ago? Ridiculous, right? I mean does that mean all of us who came over here from Asia 1000s of years ago can now go steal homes in China?

Your capacity for rationalization when it comes to Israel is quite remarkable. The quote you cite does not invalidate the conclusion, and Wikipedia has links to scholarly sources, which also do not invalidate it.

And where exactly do you think the idea of a historical Israel comes from? Do you think a pack of rabbis in Europe dreamed it up in the 19th century? Christian traditions which go back to at least the late first century assume Israel had been there for a very long time. You claim to be Jewish but have nothing but relentless attacks on anything tied to the origins of Judaism, so I'm wondering what you believe is the origins and basis of Judaism?

I also notice that for all your complaining about people not answering your questions you don't answer theirs. Despite this I will ask you again, but in a different way. What is your plan? If you get your way then what happens to the non-Arabs that currently live in "Palestine"?

 

[abiG]

I'm wondering what you believe is the origins and basis of Judaism?

I will answer this since you whined. Just kidding, this is important and I have gone over this before as well

To be a Jew is one thing and one thing only. It simply means that one has accepted the Torah on Mt. Sinai. And God gave this gift to every Mother there that day, that forever, their children and the children of all the mothers to come would give this to their children.

That's it. Today of course, you can even convert, but at some point you have to accept that Torah into your soul.

Now, just maybe you can understand how important it is that we stop the conflation of Judaism with zionism.

 

[Islam Imamate]

So you only count the historical period between ancient Israels end, and modern Israels beginning as valid, interesting. And the fact that there were always Jews living in the land under the occupation of the Greeks, Romans, and Arabs means nothing.

Of course I don't count events of 3,000 years ago, else we'd be talking about creating an Assyrian and Babylonian state as well. The Assyrians probably had a stronger claim than the Zionists tbh.

The fact that there was a Jewish population that lived there continuously doesn't justify the ethnic cleansing of the gentiles at the hands of European Jews who only moved there in the late 19th and early 20th century. That population of Middle Eastern Jews was just as entitled to that land as their Muslim and Christian neighbors though.

The Arabs got the land by conquest, and that's okay, but if the Jews take it back by conquest that's wrong. Though I would point out that a majority of the gains have come from either legal purchases (until the paleostinians made it a capital offense to sell land to Jews) or from fighting off attacks by the Arabs that were powered by genocidal intent.

The Arab conquests happened in the 7th century, a bit past the statue of limitations as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to complain about the Reconquista either and demand a state for Moors in the Cordoba province of Spain, no one alive even has great-grandparents who remembered that event. On the other hand the Nakba is within living memory.

And no, most of the gains came in the wake of the Nakba. The surrounding countries were responding to the Nakba though of course they each also had ulterior motives.

What makes you think that the "Palestinians", if they were to get their land back, would be peaceful and equipped to run things in a way that would provide for and respect the rights of their own people and minorities? What documentation and behavior can you cite from them that would be a basis for thinking so?





They haven't even shown that they can treat their own people well, much less Jews who would be a minority if they took over.

I never said they should get it all back though, in fact I said the opposite earlier ITT.

This basically for me. The creation of the state of Israel was done through a historical injustice and that has to be recognized. But to entirely undo it would require another historical injustice.

I think all the settlements in the occupied territories should be disbanded though, or at least integrated into the state of Palestine should there ever be one.

They should get all of the occupied territories though. Won't happen because the Zionists have US diplomatic cover and are committed to ethnically cleansing as many Palestinians as possible.

 

[oleDirtyBast4rd]

Israel becoming a nation required the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, that's why the entire project was morally bankrupt to begin with. To support the former means to support the latter.

You're free to make an argument to the contrary if you'd like

It was a quasi-state because for most of its existence it was formally a part of the Ottoman Empire but real authority was exercised by Zahir. He even defeated Ottoman forces multiple times before the revolt, he just never declared outright independence until he had the support of the Russians and al Kabir.

It was

Palestinians left due to the fighting. Lol @ your revisionist history

 

[ocfightfan]

I will answer this since you whined.

Just kidding,

You know there are times when I really want to like you because we actually seem to agree on a lot. But we are cats and dogs on this issue.

this is important and I have gone over this before as well

To be a Jew is one thing and one thing only. It simply means that one has accepted the Torah on Mt. Sinai. And God gave this gift to every Mother there that day, that forever, their children and the children of all the mothers to come would give this to their children.

That's it. Today of course, you can even convert, but at some point you have to accept that Torah into your soul.

Now, just maybe you can understand how important it is that we stop the conflation of Judaism with zionism.

I'm afraid I don't fully understand. Are you saying that you only accept the five books of Moses? You do not accept the rest of the Tanakh?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Palestinians left due to the fighting. Lol @ your revisionist history

I provided you a source which even links to Yitzkhak Rabin's account where he openly admits that he was ordered to expel tens of thousands of Palestinians in two towns. No doubt many of them left due to the fighting but there's also no doubt that hundreds of thousands were expelled.

Honestly you've shown time and time again that you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to this conflict. Maybe just bow out before you embarrass yourself even more.

 

[abiG]

I'm afraid I don't fully understand. Are you saying that you only accept the five books of Moses? You do not accept the rest of the Tanakh?

No, I was answering your question.

You said: "I'm wondering what you believe is the origins and basis of Judaism?"

You know there are times when I really want to like you because we actually seem to agree on a lot. But we are cats and dogs on this issue.

That is because you support the establishment of racial colonies on land that has been occupied by another people for centuries. I saw what happened when Hitler tried this. It didn't go well.

 

[Phr3121]

Nothing new here...

"On 15 December 1988, the State of Palestine's declaration of independence of November 1988 was acknowledged in the General Assembly with Resolution 43/177. As of 3 August 2018, 137 (71%) of the 193 member states of the United Nations have recognized the State of Palestine."

 

[Swoliosis]

Catalonians be like .........

 

[Phr3121]

I'm afraid I don't fully understand. Are you saying that you only accept the five books of Moses? You do not accept the rest of the Tanakh?

* The Tanakh, or Hebrew Bible, is also the textual source for the Christian Old Testament.