Spain to Push for European Recognition of Palestine: We May Go It Alone if That Fails

I provided you a source which even links to Yitzkhak Rabin's account where he openly admits that he was ordered to expel tens of thousands of Palestinians in two towns. No doubt many of them left due to the fighting but there's also no doubt that hundreds of thousands were expelled.

Honestly you've shown time and time again that you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to this conflict. Maybe just bow out before you embarrass yourself even more.


"The 700,000 Palestinians who were displaced came from the villages and urban neighborhoods that had served as bases of the militia and irregulars who had for months assaulted Jewish convoys and settlements. They were seen as an existential threat and, when conquered, their villages were leveled. Subsequently, Israel, with a total of about 750,000 Jews, refused to allow back the displaced Palestinians, many of whom had fought against it and would have constituted a massive potential fifth column. Denied absorption in the host Arab states, they became, and remain, along with their descendants, "refugees.""
 
No, I was answering your question.

You said: "I'm wondering what you believe is the origins and basis of Judaism?"

And I did not find your answer to be clear. How do you view the events that come after Moses dies? Was Joshua wrong to invade Canaan? And what do you do with the other major figures of the Tanakh? Was King David not the King of Israel or was he just not legitimate?

That is because you support the establishment of racial colonies on land that has been occupied by another people for centuries. I saw what happened when Hitler tried this. It didn't go well.

Jews are not a race. And Arab-Israelis which comprise 21% of the population have full rights. As for Hitler I do not advocate genocide or racial abuse. The problem is that the arabs want to destroy Israel and I have not confidence that they will treat non-arabs well if they ever succeed. If I had any hope that they truly wanted peace then I would be on board, but they don't.
 
Again, overview of Palestine's demographics as of 1931:
. Jews: 175,000
. Christians: 89,000
. Muslims: 760,000

Map showing Jewish-owned land as of 31 December 1944, including land owned in full. This constituted 6% of the total land area.
583px-Palestine_Index_to_Villages_and_Settlements%2C_showing_Land_in_Jewish_Possession_as_at_31.12.44.jpg
 
"The 700,000 Palestinians who were displaced came from the villages and urban neighborhoods that had served as bases of the militia and irregulars who had for months assaulted Jewish convoys and settlements. They were seen as an existential threat and, when conquered, their villages were leveled. Subsequently, Israel, with a total of about 750,000 Jews, refused to allow back the displaced Palestinians, many of whom had fought against it and would have constituted a massive potential fifth column. Denied absorption in the host Arab states, they became, and remain, along with their descendants, "refugees.""
It doesn't matter how you justify it, it was still the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were overwhelmingly non-combatants. Calling them a fifth column doesn't justify their ethnic cleansing, in fact that's often the justification for ethnic cleansing and genocide. That view is not unlike how the Turks saw the Armenians, as a dangerous fifth column. I guess the Turks had a point in your view right? Its only natural to use mass violence against non-combatants if some tiny portion of them are combatants that find support among the population under this logic

Oh and Jordan absorbed them and gave them citizenship so more fake news from you. Like I said, maybe you should stop embarrassing yourself. Also citation needed.
 


* The Tanakh, or Hebrew Bible, is also the textual source for the Christian Old Testament.


I'm well aware of that. My question was not about the origins of the religions, but her beliefs. I'm really curious about what she believes, and how it fuels her motivations and posting. I find it bizarre that a genuine Jew who accepts the Tanakh as authoritative could be so vehemently anti-Israel.
 
It doesn't matter how you justify it, it was still the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were overwhelmingly non-combatants. Calling them a fifth column doesn't justify their ethnic cleansing, in fact that's often the justification for ethnic cleansing and genocide. That view is not unlike how the Turks saw the Armenians, as a dangerous fifth column. I guess the Turks had a point in your view right? Its only natural to use mass violence against non-combatants if some tiny portion of them are combatants that find support among the population under this logic

Oh and Jordan absorbed them and gave them citizenship so more fake news from you. Like I said, maybe you should stop embarrassing yourself.

What do you think of the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands in the wake of Israel declaring independence? Or the various documented (and more than likely many more undocumented) pogroms against Jews in Arab countries over the centuries, such as the Farhud?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-prosor/the-middle-easts-greatest-untold-story_b_1652777.html
At the end of World War II, 850,000 Jews lived in Arab countries. Just 8,500 remain today. Their departure was no accident. After Arab leaders failed to annihilate Israel militarily in 1948, they launched a war of terror, incitement, and expulsion to decimate their own ancient Jewish communities.

In Iraq Jewish businessman Shafiq Adas, then the country’s wealthiest citizen, was immediately arrested on trumped-up charges and publicly lynched. This was followed by bombings targeting Jewish institutions, arbitrary arrests of Jewish leaders, and massive government seizures of property. Within years virtually all of Iraq’s 2,500-year-old Jewish community had fled, emptying the country of many of its greatest artists, musicians, and businessmen.

Similar scenes played out across the region, from Egypt to Syria to Libya to Yemen. State-sanctioned pogroms descended on Jewish neighborhoods, killing innocents and destroying ancient synagogues and Jewish cemeteries. New, draconian laws prevented Jews from public worship, forced them to carry Jewish identity cards, and seized billions of dollars in their property and assets. The total area of land confiscated from Jews in Arab countries amounts to nearly 40,000 square miles — about five times the size of Israel’s entire land mass.

And if Palestinians all have citizenship in Jordan then how are 2 million of them refugees?
 
There is a global right wing loose movement that wants see each other succeed. Italy sucking Trump dick and going to align with Visegrad group. Then rich Russians funding right wingers in europe. Yeah Le Pen and her type are not Israel lovers but that is 1 country. Orban and Visegrad is different. Then look at the nationalists in brazil and argentina.

Are you saying there is a global nationalist movement? I hope you see the irony of that.

The only dick Italy sucks is German. Because the evil Merkel is the one with the bailout money. Half of the Visegrad group current leadership has to undermine their own democracy to desperately stay in power. You seem to misunderstand one policy they have in common. With a global movement. Italiens 4 start movement is like a green party in a lot of ways.
Why on earth would German nationalist want to see America to succeed you know they still blame them for WW2 right? Or the Visegrad group. Those people consider them illegally occupying German lands.
 
Are you ignoring the right wing in latin america or canada and australia and USA? Who all want to move embassies to jerusalem? The canadian conservative party just approved resolution to move embassy to Jerusalem if they get into power.
Your talking ot your ass now. You are German and you think the rest of continent acts like Germany not true.

Poland
Hungary
Czech
Romania

Are 4 countries attended the Israel US embassy opening snd have parliaments that love Israel and people. Romania to. Czech approved the movr as did romania it was only the presidents who said hold on wait because they are afraid to anger the French and German ruled EU. Then you have geert wilders in Nederlands and his new EU led party.

Of course, those countries are on Israel's side because they currently illegally occupy German land.
They can't exactly demand from Israel to give the stolen land back.

Those countries know full well it's just a matter until the boys in "feldgrauen ehrenkleid:" are going to take back the German lands once again :).
 
It doesn't matter how you justify it, it was still the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were overwhelmingly non-combatants. Calling them a fifth column doesn't justify their ethnic cleansing, in fact that's often the justification for ethnic cleansing and genocide. That view is not unlike how the Turks saw the Armenians, as a dangerous fifth column. I guess the Turks had a point in your view right? Its only natural to use mass violence against non-combatants if some tiny portion of them are combatants that find support among the population under this logic

Oh and Jordan absorbed them and gave them citizenship so more fake news from you. Like I said, maybe you should stop embarrassing yourself. Also citation needed.

They got pushed out as a result of the violent fighting. Same thing happened in Felujah

You're just getting mad because Palestinians have been getting their shit pushed in EVERY time they try to do anything. They've never been a nation and likely never will on that piece of land

"However, since 1988, and especially over the past few years, the Jordanian government has been arbitrarily and without notice withdrawing Jordanian nationality from its citizens of Palestinian origin, making them stateless."

https://www.hrw.org/report/2010/02/...-origin-jordanians-deprived-their-nationality
 
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What do you think of the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands in the wake of Israel declaring independence? Or the various documented (and more than likely many more undocumented) pogroms against Jews in Arab countries over the centuries, such as the Farhud?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-prosor/the-middle-easts-greatest-untold-story_b_1652777.html
That's obviously wrong as well. Its a cliche but its true; two wrongs don't make a right. Many of them obviously left of their own volition to the state of Israel, a dream come true for many of them. In fact the Israelis even organized a lot their transportation such as in the case of the Yemeni Jews.

But there's no doubt that varying levels of state and mob violence and oppression was responsible as well. Zionists ethnically cleansing Palestinians doesn't justify Arabs ethnically cleansing Jews. People should held to account for that as well, at the very least there should be some sort of reconciliation tribunal for that sort of thing so its at least all brought out into the open and the perpetrators shamed before history.

See, not hard to condemn ethnic cleansing.
And if Palestinians all have citizenship in Jordan then how are 2 million of them refugees?
Did you read your own link?
Most Palestine refugees in Jordan, but not all, have full citizenship. There are ten recognized Palestine refugee camps throughout the country, which accommodate nearly 370,000 Palestine refugees, or 18 per cent of the country total. Jordan hosts the largest number of Palestine refugees of all of the UNWRA fields.
Most Palestinians and Jordanians of Palestinian descent are integrated and have citizenship. Many of the ones in the refugee camps date from the 1967 war.
 
They got pushed out as a result of the violent fighting. Same thing happened in Felujah.
No, they got pushed out as a result of a deliberate campaign of ethnic cleansing which even your earlier post admitted to, though it merely tried to disgustingly justifiy the ethnic cleansing on the basis of the idea that the Palestinians were seen as a fifth column.
You're just getting mad because Palestinians have been getting their shit pushed in EVERY time they try to do anything. They've never been a nation and likely never will on that piece of land.

They got pushed out of the land for fighting with Israel like the source posted above said. They got their shit pushed in sodom and gomorrah style.

"However, since 1988, and especially over the past few years, the Jordanian government has been arbitrarily and without notice withdrawing Jordanian nationality from its citizens of Palestinian origin, making them stateless."

https://www.hrw.org/report/2010/02/...-origin-jordanians-deprived-their-nationality
I'm not mad, not sure why you'd think I am. Thankfully I am not Palestinian nor do I know any so I am not really personally affected by this. I'm just stating the truth and while you decide to ignore it and peddle an ideologically motivated revision of history. I even posted a link to a memoir by an Israeli Prime Minister who was directly complicit in the expulsion and admitted to it and yet you pretend its not there.

You are right that they will likely never become a nation. The Zionists have all but gotten away with the historic injustice they committed against the Palestinians. They continue to ethnically cleanse them and take more and more of their land and pushing them onto ever smaller patches of ever less productive land until one day, most likely, the Palestinians will find themselves on reservations not unlike what the Native Americans find themselves on today in the US. That is if the Palestinians aren't completely pushed out of their historic homeland.

The difference is most Americans can admit that what happened to Native Americans was an injustice while Zionists like yourself can't admit the injustice done to the Palestinians

Doesn't seem like you have anything else to say on the matter, certainly nothing of value or based in truth. I'm done wasting my time with you, have the last word and have a nice day.
 
That's obviously wrong as well. Its a cliche but its true; two wrongs don't make a right. Many of them obviously left of their own volition to the state of Israel, a dream come true for many of them. In fact the Israelis even organized a lot their transportation such as in the case of the Yemeni Jews.

But there's no doubt that varying levels of state and mob violence and oppression was responsible as well. Zionists ethnically cleansing Palestinians doesn't justify Arabs ethnically cleansing Jews. People should held to account for that as well, at the very least there should be some sort of reconciliation tribunal for that sort of thing so its at least all brought out into the open and the perpetrators shamed before history.

See, not hard to condemn ethnic cleansing.

Did you read your own link?

Most Palestinians and Jordanians of Palestinian descent are integrated and have citizenship. Many of the ones in the refugee camps date from the 1967 war.

Good that you are being consistent, but my point is that this situation is being driven by Arab (and other) aggression toward Jews. There is a pattern of behavior in the Arab world where Jews have lived as second class citizens in most cases, and have to worry about the next outbreak of violence against them. What reason do I have to believe that things will be different now if only Israel would give the Palestinians everything they want?
 
No, they got pushed out as a result of a deliberate campaign of ethnic cleansing which even your earlier post admitted to, though it merely tried to disgustingly justifiy the ethnic cleansing on the basis of the idea that the Palestinians were seen as a fifth column.

It was the towns where the attacks were coming from. They got rid of the towns. If it's called ethnic cleansing to take out 2 towns that are the staging place for military attacks, then I'm all for it.

I even posted a link to a memoir by an Israeli Prime Minister who was directly complicit in the expulsion and admitted to it and yet you pretend its not there.

I pretended it's not there as Im discussing it with you? You called it ethnic cleansing. I think calling it that is silly. Fuck outta here with that pretending it's not there nonsense.

They continue to ethnically cleanse them and take more and more of their land and pushing them

Lmfao you're still with this bullshit? Palestinians can own land in Israel. Meanwhile it is a crime punishable by death for a Palestinian to sell a jewish man land. Yet its Israel ethnically cleansing the Palestinians? Lo fucking l
 
And I did not find your answer to be clear. How do you view the events that come after Moses dies? Was Joshua wrong to invade Canaan? And what do you do with the other major figures of the Tanakh? Was King David not the King of Israel or was he just not legitimate?
I explained what it was to be a Jew. I don't have time to have the discussion you are attempting here. You are trying to on the one hand to discus history while on the other hand using religious texts as source material. Historians don't do this, nor do religious scholars. It must be one or the other, and again, it doesn't matter here.

I think I have responded to everything relevant. Can you now answer to:

How crazy is it to claim land some relation to you might have had 3000 years ago?

Ridiculous, right?

I mean does that mean all of us who came over here from Asia 1000s of years ago can now go steal homes in China?
 
Good that you are being consistent, but my point is that this situation is being driven by Arab (and other) aggression toward Jews. There is a pattern of behavior in the Arab world where Jews have lived as second class citizens in most cases, and have to worry about the next outbreak of violence against them. What reason do I have to believe that things will be different now if only Israel would give the Palestinians everything they want?
I don't think that's true, to me the root of the issue is the injustice committed by the Zionists against the Palestinians which started from the beginning of the Zionist project.

I don't think Israel should give the Palestinians everything they want because they want all of historic Palestine just as Zionists want all of it for Israel. They should give them a contiguous state in the occupied territories because its the just thing to do but also because not doing so will means maintaining a permanent, low level conflict that has a toxic effect on Israeli society given the population of Arabs within Israel.

But I do have to admit that the Israelis are close to total victory. Even their former enemies like Egypt and Saudi Arabia are now trying to strong arm the Palestinians into a shit deal. Most likely, as I said earlier, the Israelis will get away with the deep injustice they've committed to the Palestinians and push them onto tiny reservations.

If you don't care about the Palestinians at all and are okay with Israel fucking them over completely then there really is little reason for Israel to concede any sort of fair deal to the Palestinians.
 
How crazy is it to claim land some relation to you might have had 3000 years ago?

Ridiculous, right?

I mean does that mean all of us who came over here from Asia 1000s of years ago can now g

That's not the only reason though. There is no other jewish state for these people to have a homeland. That is their original homeland and it was vacant at the time (ottoman empire disbanded).
 
There is no other jewish state for these people to have a homeland.
This, in a roundabout way is exactly what I have been trying to get you to see. Jews do not want a state, let alone a military. This is zionism. This is what you support, not Jews.

To further illustrate my point, and I have put this challenge out there several times, find me any of our Rabbis or Sages, prior to zionism, who even suggested taking the Holy Land by force. Which ones said to go there as a wall and to build a strong military, let alone to go ethnically cleanse God's children?

See my point?

Be aware that I can find multiple quotes directly from our Rabbis and Sages throughout history, and from within our Torah that says exactly the opposite. Judaism has been clear on this throughout our diaspora and Judaism doesn't change because you said so.

That is their original homeland and it was vacant at the time (ottoman empire disbanded).
Wait, what? So you do think all of us who came over here from Asia 1000s of years ago can now go steal homes in China?
 
I explained what it was to be a Jew. I don't have time to have the discussion you are attempting here. You are trying to on the one hand to discus history while on the other hand using religious texts as source material. Historians don't do this, nor do religious scholars. It must be one or the other, and again, it doesn't matter here.

If those religious texts have no historical basis then your Judaism might as well be based on the Teletubbies. You are LARPing Judaism.

I think I have responded to everything relevant. Can you now answer to:

No, but I only have so much energy to devote to these discussions so whatever.

How crazy is it to claim land some relation to you might have had 3000 years ago?

Ridiculous, right?

I mean does that mean all of us who came over here from Asia 1000s of years ago can now go steal homes in China?

You have to delete a lot of facts to use that very flawed analogy.

If China was never a country, but a region administered by outside imperial powers for centuries.

And named after a historical invader from the outside (Palestinian is derived from the name used for the invaders from the Aegean, the Philistines).

And I moved there and legally bought land from Chinese.

Then they tried to kill me and in fighting them off I take even more land, then it's mine.

If they never make peace with me but keep attacking me and each time I defend myself and take even more land, then that land is also mine.
 
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