Sport BJJ blackbelt vs strong untrained dude who can punch, in a fight with strikes. Who takes it?

What next?

Sport bjj BB does not know how to escape from a standing headlock!

Due to lack of knowledge of the only true Gracie self defense techniques.
 
The Master trains Wing Chun, and "has a background" (though I've found no listed rank) in Judo. Luckily Judo ranks are easily verifiable.



Have you considered going to an MMA class and finding out?

To use your experience, being in BJJ and taking on new comers long enough taught you that you can control them at a certain point. Now you're unsure of how you'd fare against strikes during the TD/other phases. Training for a year or so in an MMA gym will give you that same level of self-awareness with regards to newbies.

Im almost 37..... as it is I am so lucky to be able to train BJJ 5 days a week as it is, and my wife is at her limits with that.

There are a lot of things I regret not doing when I was younger (in my 20s), cross training MMA is one of them. Not even to fight pro or amatuer, just for fun and to become a bettter fighter than average.
 
I mean.... kind of agree? But not really?

At this point I have to ask the old and tired questions : do you train BJJ? Because I used to think EXACTLY that (and made countless topics on this very forum questioning BJJ in a real fight), up until around the time I passed two year mark of training and got my blue belt. Its at that point when I realized that I, a 36 year old former couch potato and exhausted father of 2, has zero issues completely wrapping up and immobilizing brand new guys that walk in that are way bigger, stronger, and younger than me.

I dont pull guard on them, I just sweep, mount, side control, or any other form of control that completely immobilizes their arms and head and body. They struggle and squirm but all they manage to do is burn themselves out.

Now where exactly in that 1.5 seconds it took for me to sweep them and immobalize them would they have had the world-class boxing skills to KO me or even touch me at all? In contrast to your gross underestimation of BJJ, I actually think you are WAY overestimating the average person's ability to throw a proper punch that does any damage at all.

It takes, literally, a split second to sweep someone into an inferior position. BUT herein lies my problem that I STILL question : we start rolls sitting down, in a real fight, how the hell will I get it to the ground?? THAT is where I am extremely deficient. In that case, I CAN easily get kneed or punched or KO right in the face, even against a clueless, flailing average joe.

And again, if you look at my post history you will see a TON of my posts and threads questioning the effectivness of BJJ in a real fight. This is not hubris or over confidence or anything like that, its just my simple, basic, clear as crystal observation from being on the mats day in and day out, against a vastly varied group of opponents of all shapes, ages, and sizes.

I trained Judo for around 6 years in the past. Would have liked to get back into it and get my blackbelt which I believe I could in around 2 years if I could commit to 3 or 4x a week training but have not due to some small nagging injuries.
Also as much as holding the coveted Judo blackbelt would be a personal achievment, this is the MMA era so cross training is more productive in terms of being well rounded if you have limited time to train.

You identify the obvious flaw in sport BJJ- having extremely poor takedown ability and no ability to defend strikes.
On the ground it should be a done deal in theory, but getting mount or side control obviously depends on getting the takedown first.
Again, have you ever rolled on a wooden floor and trained with semi contact punches and slaps on the ground? Try it sometime with a bigger guy and you will see even the surface makes a difference for how you move and apply holds as well as seeing openings for strikes especially in transitions.
 
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I trained Judo for around 6 years in the past. Would have liked to get back into it and get my blackbelt which I believe I could in around 2 years if I could commit to 3 or 4x a week training but have not due to some small nagging injuries.
Also as much as holding the coveted Judo blackbelt would be a personal achievment, this is the MMA era so cross training is more productive in terms of being well rounded if you have limited time to train.

You identify the obvious flaw in sport BJJ- having extremely poor takedown ability and no ability to defend strikes.
On the ground it should be a done deal in theory, but getting mount or side control obviously depends on getting the takedown first.
Again, have you ever rolled on a wooden floor and trained with semi contact punches and slaps on the ground? Try it sometime with a bigger guy and you will see even the surface makes a difference for how you move and apply holds as well as seeing openings for strikes especially in transitions.

Yes, every day we end up off the mats onto the hard wooden floor when I am rolling with someone near the edges. We reset and move back in but its not as big a difference as you make it out to seem. BJJ isn't pro wrestling with body slams or piledrivers :)

Big or small, I've learned that certain sweeps (basic scissor sweep even) work 99.999999% of the time against an untrained opponent. Its just one of those things that unless you are trained to defend it, you will never be able to. Ever. And I am talking about very basic sweeps, in nogi underarm scissor sweep, your head protected from their punches by their own head.

Its basic, beginner BJJ, but foreign to those that dont train
 
Yes, every day we end up off the mats onto the hard wooden floor when I am rolling with someone near the edges. We reset and move back in but its not as big a difference as you make it out to seem. BJJ isn't pro wrestling with body slams or piledrivers :)

Big or small, I've learned that certain sweeps (basic scissor sweep even) work 99.999999% of the time against an untrained opponent. Its just one of those things that unless you are trained to defend it, you will never be able to. Ever. And I am talking about very basic sweeps, in nogi underarm scissor sweep, your head protected from their punches by their own head.

Its basic, beginner BJJ, but foreign to those that dont train

Well I guess if you never train takedowns anyway, you would have a sense that "its not a big difference" o_O

Its true about the sweeps being great against people that never grappled. But like you acknowledged, currently BJJ is like training the support without the actual core system which should be; learning throws, working to clinch against strikes, and then ground holds and submissions, in that order of priority.
 
Well I guess if you never train takedowns anyway, you would have a sense that "its not a big difference" o_O

Its true about the sweeps being great against people that never grappled. But like you acknowledged, currently BJJ is like training the support without the actual core system which should be; learning throws, working to clinch against strikes, and then ground holds and submissions, in that order of priority.
If this is what's important then why are you raving on about judo? Judo doesnt have clinching against strikes, no leg grabbing, doesnt train on hard floor and does mostly gi techniques.
 
If this is what's important then why are you raving on about judo? Judo doesnt have clinching against strikes, no leg grabbing, doesnt train on hard floor and does mostly gi techniques.
He thinks all of the sudden he’s going to be able to pull some slick move on someone trying to punch his face off... it’s the exact same scenario...
 
Please purple belt mauls most people on the ground, a blue belt is dangerous. A black belt smashes. Yes the freeze factor is real. So a black belt who has never been in a street fight and is meek mentally, maybe gets suprised.

Untrained people suck at fighting.
 
I've personally never met a BJJ BB who can't do a basic takedown. Fuck, basically every purple I know had at least a double and single leg, plus some trips. ESPECIALLY a "sport" BJJ guy because, believe it or not, takedowns are actually an important part of competing.

If we were talking about pure hobbyists, then I could see your point (and the same could be said of any martial art). But if we're talking about sport then we're talking about competitors. Even if you're a guard guy, at some point in the YEARS it takes to get your BB, you're going to spend some time on your wrestling.

Are you going to out wrestle a pure wrestler? Probably not.

Are you going to have take downs good enough to ground an untrained person (which is the premise of this thread)? Almost definitely yes.

TBH, this just seems like a weird "my martial art is better than yours!" thread.

You wanna be a complete martial artist? Train MMA. Everything else has holes in it's game. Strikers have no grappling. Grapplers have no striking. It's not fucking rocket science.
 
If this is what's important then why are you raving on about judo? Judo doesnt have clinching against strikes, no leg grabbing, doesnt train on hard floor and does mostly gi techniques.

Judo has its limits also for sure. They could take a leaf from BJJ and spend more time on newaza.
Depending on the school they sometimes do, you can also do leg grabs when you train but they banned moroto gari and leg grabs from competitions because it is basically a double leg and considered a 'cheap' technique where you end up in guard not like the standing throws where you get side control or north south if you follow them to ground. I actually like the rule in a way as it makes it more like greco on the feet and emphsizes grip fighting and upper body control.

The issue is that specialized Judo newaza, which is basically what BJJ is, is only one part of the system. To specialize in that and neglect all the other areas then declare yourself or have the popular image of being the 'ultimate fighting style' is the problem.
Whatever holes GJJ had have been only been magnified in sport BJJ as the years passed. Most people actually dont have time to train more than one style in any case or cross train.

So when your system was based on the rep of being the best individual combat style, and things evolved where it basically became a ground grappling niche sport without the other parts that made it so effective there is an issue.
Am not surprised the old guard GJJ guys called it out, its not just sour grapes they realise the danger and false sense of security when the sport style changed that much from the original and it self defence utility went down greatly.
 
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on paper judo should always win vs wrestler (street fight), but i also know wrestler who beat the shit out of judo guys.

A few years ago, a pruple belt was knocked out ... from a guy who had maybe 2 weeks MT & Boxing here.

Im not saying that MT & Boxing >>> BJJ, but combat sports arent magic.
 
on paper judo should always win vs wrestler (street fight), but i also know wrestler who beat the shit out of judo guys.

A few years ago, a pruple belt was knocked out ... from a guy who had maybe 2 weeks MT & Boxing here.

Im not saying that MT & Boxing >>> BJJ, but combat sports arent magic.

Why would a judo guy win in paper va a wrestler?

I agree though, martial arts aren’t magic nor turn yourself into a movie ninja, the odds are heavy on favor of the grappler prior the fight, yet a punch to the face is a punch to the face, you get hit clean by a good punch, no color on your belt is going to avoid getting ktfo...
 
I've been to many schools where TD's and nogi were practiced so sparsely they were almost a waste of time. Almost all schools also don't practice defending against punches or if they do, it's once again so infrequent or unrealistic that it's also a waste of time.

In my experience, a vast majority of bjj guys have a negligent amount of experience on their feet, even in a grappling context. Couple this with a sport culture that encourages pulling guard and you are giving the puncher the best chance possible both on the feet and on the ground.

I have two instructors, both of whom were black belts under separate equally legit, traditional lineages (if lineage means anything to you. This story will tell you it means little).

1. My first instructor tried to steal something from a super market. He was confronted by loss prevention. I heard my instructor went for a heel hook and got his ass beat by loss prevention guy. Let us assume that loss prevention guy has no experience or at least isn't a black belt. My instructor is a small dude - about 135lbs when I saw him last. He was supposedly a judo brown belt but I never saw him stand up once.

2. My former instructor was apparently "challenged" by a coworker to "hold him down" after discovering he was a black belt. Let's assume the challenger has some wrestling/grappling experience but is also not a black belt. This black belt isn't very good, his stand up is atrocious, and his cardio is garbage. My instructor could not take him down, apparently pulled guard, and went for an armbar. At some point they agree to stop the match but I forget why. My instructor's head looked like it had a leopard pattern - big bruises everywhere - and his elbows were skinned pretty good.

One interesting fact about both instances is that both instructors were self defense instructors. Neither person was prepared for how someone acts outside of a simulated, grappling context.

Dear lord who are you training under lol
 
I don’t understand, you’re basically saying that bjj only beats untrained opponents, but that’s what we’re talking about here. So are you agreeing? Obviously if someone has trained any martial art that is applicable in the real world (western boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, sambo, kickboxing) they’re going to be more of a challenge than an untrained opponent but if jiu-jitsu was just a marketing ploy by the Gracies then why do you still see so much of it in mma to this day. People still get armbarred, triangled, and have their backs taken at least once every card guaranteed. I don’t see any Savate or Kung Fu masters still competing but I see former bjj guys on pretty much every card. Also high level guys (Kron, Vinny, Raphael Lovato Jr.) transition over without much trouble at all relying on bjj as most of their gameplan. I get that a high level wrestler is going to be a handful but outside of them and maybe a few really good sambo guys no one else really has any idea what to do on the ground unless they trained in those arts or bjj. And since about 90-95% of the world trains nothing at all, I’d say even a three or four stripe white belt would have their bases covered as long as their school emphasizes position over submission and to keep a good top game at all costs
 
ill take a blue belt if hes not an idiot and has trained at a decent gym that teaches good self defense things as well
 
Black Belt?

All it would take is a three-stripe white who knows how to close the distance.


years ago sure but today brown belts in bjj dont have the real fight skills 3 stripe white belts use to have lol gracie challenges were almost always won by blues and today us ee vids of browns getting owned by untrained people its very funny to me
 
Watch that Eddie Bravo event where you can throw slaps. Many sport BJJ guys turtle up from them. One guy ate so many from mount without even attempting to escape, because he froze up for a long time, the fight got stopped....from slaps.
lol hipsters cant fight is why
 
Real world example re BJJ takedowns.

My stats:
6'4", 200
BJJ mid to high level purple (I tap browns regularly, blacks occasionally, actually haven't been tapped by a BB other than my coach in a couple years)
Karate red belt, honestly black belt skills but I got sick of the belt testing and kiai shit and I was wrecking most black belts

A couple weeks ago a buddy of a buddy was curious about BJJ. Big dude, Cain Velasquez size, 6'4", 240. Former ski bum and current roofer, so he's athletic and realllllly strong.

We're pummeling, I'm showing him stuff, but he wants to go for it.

Guys, he was strong, but in four tie ups, I got two standing guillotines, one arm drag to the back to a RNC, and a single leg to side control. None of the tie ups lasted much more than 15 seconds.

I'm not a takedown machine by any means. I've done fair amounts of no-gi and have *ok* takedowns for what I am.

Cover, close, clinch, and they are yours.

So my example is a mid level purple giving up 40+ pounds. A good BB giving up 25 will murder the guy as long as they don't hang their chin out in the sky like a piñata.
 
Interesting question for entrtainemt purposes.
Take quick football player in good athletic shape, 220 lbs or more, issue him for example boots used by railroad labourers in work on railroad.
Instruct him how to kick nasty low kicks, including streetwise direct type frotnal kicks to lower leg and some other small shits for 4 - 8 hours drilling.
Then I think, even 2 nd degree belt will not help if he managed to land 2 - 4 decent kicks. Football players can kick with unbelievable even for martial arts trainers force.
 
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