STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

If you have seen STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI, how would you rate it?


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I literally walked out of THE LAST JEDI loving everything about it, and was flabbergasted by such audience division. It was fascinating.

I do find that very interesting. So far I have found most of the defenses of this movie to come off as pretty irrational. Perhaps you would be interested in giving a defense for some of the worst parts of the movie that the people who dislike it have brought up?
 
I do find that very interesting. So far I have found most of the defenses of this movie to come off as pretty irrational. Perhaps you would be interested in giving a defense for some of the worst parts of the movie that the people who dislike it have brought up?
I see that people didn't like the way Luke was handled, but I don't agree that any of it's out of line with the courageous Jedi who came in unarmed to save his father's soul. Not only did I feel it was true to his character, I really enjoyed the new chapter of his arc because he felt like he was living out a new part of his life. Something I'd never really seen before, and so I just wanted to follow him to see where he went. STAR WARS is familiar to me as my childhood and in some ways WAS my childhood when I factor in playing with toys. And this felt new and fresh, but also familiar and not just because it's Mark Hamill. I really liked Luke in this. He was bad ass. I wanted to be there with him at the end, and I thought this was a glorious end. Save the Rebellion single-handedly, using the Force, embarking on a journey that veered into the Dark Side to come out the other side with purpose, proficiency and finally peace. He fought and was almost defeated by the only foe who could match the might of Luke Skywalker: himself. He surmounted inner demons, as must we all, and gained even more nobility and cemented his already immortal status. He died alone, yet he died for something bigger than any of us. He knew he would die, and he did it anyway. How do I not call that a hero? How is that a slap in the face? I don't really know.

I get that people wanted more chop-socky, but there's also the fact that we want drama-based action. With his two fight scenes, I think people place too much importance on the notion that, yes, each one is essentially a glorified sparring match. It's just the dramatic and emotional stakes were very high. Both Rey and Luke are teetering on the Dark Side when they fight. People say Rey is OP and defeated Luke, but that's not anywhere close to the truth. It's just that Luke doesn't have to move much that it seems like he's not doing much, but watch:

He only looks like he's defeated beneath the glare of the laser sword. This sequence is a direct homage to the RETURN, with Rey standing where Luke was, and Luke assuming the visage of his father. Both are momentarily blinded by rage but manage to keep themselves in check. He's not defeated -- he's finally forced to face himself and knows he needs to do something and not just resign himself to death.

I can't believe people don't like his duel with Krylo. How the music and imagery swells from his entrance on Crait to squaring off against the remaining First Order? What more did they want?!

Earlier Mike cited how I talked about subverting expectation, and I get the sense he's thinking more about character direction and story left-turns. When you expect one thing to happen but another things happens instead. Sometimes these twists are arbitrary and hollow, and I get that antipathy for them.

What I really mean about subverting expectation is DAT FEEL of not knowing how it's going to turn out, and how the film's events make my brain go back and forth screaming, "WHAT THE FUCK IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN? IS HE GOING TO DIE? IS HE GOING TO LIVE?" As I said, SW is as familiar as old houses so this intense not-knowing while steeped deep in the mythos was exhilarating to me. The music is phenomenal and he's walking through a fiery, bloody giant vagina. Reborn.

Fucking phenomenarr. You didn't like that shit? Fuck outta here.


What else? Rose? The space chase plot? There's so much that people hate it's hard to know what you're looking for.​
 
What else? Rose? The space chase plot? There's so much that people hate it's hard to know what you're looking for.​

Wow I'm sorry I wasn't meaning for you to start discussing a bunch of stuff in the movie at random. If you were interested I was going to link you to a point I had brought up earlier that was never responded to. Then if you want to continue I would only do one point at a time. I feel that's easier than doing a ton of stuff at once and writing lots of paragraphs.

When I think about everything I dislike about this movie including every example of bad writing and every plot hole......this scene and sequence stands out to me as one of the worst offenders. It's such poor writing and such drivel. Finn gets emotional being the last speeder trying to stop the first order. He has a real character moment when he decides to sacrifice himself for what he really cares about. This was a decent moment until Rose comes out of nowhere and slams her speeder into his because she wanted to save his life. Anyone with any amount of common sense can immediately see the problem with that. First off she could have killed both of them by doing that. Do the writers of this movie think that their characters are complete morons? Do they think the audience is nothing but children who don't see how ridiculous this scene is? Then even if both survive they are OUT FAR FROM THE BASE RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE ENEMY. How the hell could Rose think that they would surivive? How do the writers think that they would survive? Then she delivers that stupid line "I saved you, that's how we are going to win, not fighting what we hate, saving what we love". Finn was on his way to try to save what he loves. Save his friends. Save the resistance, and Rose puts their lives in grave danger and STOPS him from the chance of saving what he loves. Roses very sister died because she was saving what she loved. Now Rose disregads the mission and it's importance. She isn't thinking about all of the people that will die if that cannon goes off. She just wants to slam a speeder into Finn right in front of the enemy that just shot down all of the other speeders. WTF. I can't believe anyone thought this would be a good scene to put into this movie. It is absolute nonsense.

THEN you have this huge plot hole of how they make it all the way back to the base. Did you see how far away they are from that base? We are supposed to believe that Finn DRAGGED Rose all the way back without the enemy blasting them? That just isn't possible and the film gives no indication of how it could have been done. If you look at the distance to the base it would take hours to drag someone that far. Absolutely ridiculous. The movie essentially just teleported them back. No worries about plot holes right?

Here is a youtube video detailing the above points. Time stampped
 
Ooh, they put the standalone films on-hold.

<bball2><bball1>

If you were interested I was going to link you to a point I had brought up earlier that was never responded to.
I did address this point upthread. I don't know if it was directed at you, because I recall my concentrating on Poe's involvement of the scene. Let me see if I can find it, and expand if necessary.

Okay, now reading the quote over, I was clearly talking to someone else.

One problem is injecting real world physics into a story. While it's true that details should be real enough to sell the story, it's the story that we must follow and not the physical reality of it. If we are told XYZ happens, that's what happens. We're not supposed to go, "but but but he's standing too far away" or "it would have been better had another thing happened." You can't demonize a film for something it didn't do. Criticism must apply TO a film, not rewrite it.

But anyway, think about all the physical impossibilities that you've accepted in film -- punches that sound like treetrunks breaking, bullets that send people flying, a punctual woman. If we let impossibilities get in the way of storytelling, there's no story. The story is what helps you accept the details, not the other way around.

Chucksglassjaw made the analogy that such contrivances are acceptable only if the story is good, and that's a rather shitty argument, given how many people rely on the "shitty" details to support their own dislike for the story. Plus, what's good to someone can clearly be bad to someone else. There is no right answer, only support for one's own opinion. My issue with haters is usually the support for their opinion exists outside of the film.

So here's where we are: you hate the story point of Rose saving Finn. You think that what she says makes no sense and even undermines the actions of other characters. And maybe you think Finn was on his way to doing the only redeemable thing the Rebellion's been able to manage this entire dismal picture. Yes? No?

Here is what I see. Finn and the audience are told he has no chance surviving the battering ram laser, and he's blinded by his own sense of obligations -- something that he's been wrestling with through two films, more acutely here -- and that's why this scene and its words are so vital.

The truth is being willing to die is not martyrdom but foolishness. Rose says it. Killing and dying by themselves solve nothing. Saving a life means something, if only to extend it by only one second. As audience members in front of a film knowing the heroes will win, to us extending life by just one second is silly and minuscule. But to the character, in the moment, one more second is a CHANCE. Rose is laying down her life to save Finn -- yes it could have killed them both and it very nearly killed her. But she's not doing it for nothing. She's doing it for him. It's the precursor to Luke's sacrifice. A converse example to this concept would be IRREVERSIBLE, which ends on such a horrid note because the wrong person was murdered; someone died for the wrong reason.

Finn was too wrapped up in himself to adhere to the importance of life, even after he's saved by Rose he still doesn't quite get the lesson. He's willing to die out there with Luke, not realizing Luke is there to SAVE him. Over and over again JEDI repeats the same theme: The Force is not about the person, the self, the individual -- because all that we are is what we mean to other people.​
 
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The truth is being willing to die is not martyrdom but foolishness. Rose says it. Killing and dying by themselves solve nothing. Saving a life means something, if only to extend it by only one second. As audience members in front of a film knowing the heroes will win, to us extending life by just one second is silly and minuscule. But to the character, in the moment, one more second is a CHANCE. Rose is laying down her life to save Finn -- yes it could have killed them both and it very nearly killed her. But she's not doing it for nothing. She's doing it for him. It's the precursor to Luke's sacrifice. A converse example to this concept would be IRREVERSIBLE, which ends on such a horrid note because the wrong person was murdered; someone died for the wrong reason.

Finn was too wrapped up in himself to adhere to the importance of life, even after he's saved by Rose he still doesn't quite get the lesson. He's willing to die out there with Luke, not realizing Luke is there to SAVE him. Over and over again JEDI repeats the same theme: The Force is not about the person, the self, the individual -- because all that we are is what we mean to other people.​

Martyrdom is not foolish if it's in the right context. Did anyone think the girls martyrdom at the beginning when she dropped the bombs on the ship was foolish? I certainly didn't have a problem with her doing that. Maybe issues with the bomber itself but not what she did. Hodo's martyrdom in itself wasn't foolish either as long as there was a great need for it. Now there is a gripe that an autopilot or robot could have done it as well but that is really a separate issue. Martyrdom is not foolish and is one of the greatest things any character can do. To give your life for the cause that you love.

The argument that martyrdom is foolishness is so strange in this context. These people are in a war. Fighting and risking your life or giving your life is the entire point. Some will have to die to save everyone else. You say that saving a life means something but that is exactly what Finn was doing! He wanted to save the lives of everyone in that fort. He wanted to keep the canon from going off.

Rose was NOT laying down her life to save Finn. She was very obviously risking both of their lives by the crash and how they were way out by themselves in front of the enemy. It is also a glaring plot hole that Finn somehow carried her all the way back without dying. That just isn't possible. The enemy not killing or capturing them just isn't possible. It's just too silly to take seriously.
 
He wanted to keep the canon from going off.
He would have failed, hence: foolish.

For no reason. Remember that part of it.​

Rose was NOT laying down her life to save Finn.
{<huh}

Except... She saved his life. And nearly died. It literally happened. I'll give you that it's a tough sell with Finn hauling Rose back to the fort .. what, past Luke? But shit like that doesn't bother me when this is onscreen instead:

image_8ec8e519.jpg


While EVERYONE is looking at this, is it unbelievable the two little minority kids could sneak by?​
 
He would have failed, hence: foolish.

For no reason. Remember that part of it.

It's irrelevant whether he ends up succeeding or not. He doesn't know the future. We as viewers didn't know the future and whether he would succeed. The point of the mission was to stop the cannon and he wanted to save everyone. That is simply not foolish. You are trying to say it was foolish because he wouldn't succeed but then claim that what Rose did makes sense even though it was likely to kill them both (AND not stop the canon? That just doesn't make any sense.

Except... She saved his life. And nearly died. It literally happened. I'll give you that it's a tough sell with Finn hauling Rose back to the fort .. what, past Luke?

Finn and Rose ended up surviving because the plot dictated it. How on Earth could Rose know that they would live? This makes absolutely no sense in the context of what was going on and what she did.

But shit like that doesn't bother me when this is onscreen instead:


image_8ec8e519.jpg


While EVERYONE is looking at this, is it unbelievable the two little minority kids could sneak by?

Finn carrying Rose would have taken hours. Did you see how far they traveled on SPEEDERS? It's absurd and again Rose put both their lives and everyone elses in danger crashing her speeder into his. There were a ton of enemies there and it would have been quick and easy to kill Finn and Rose. Luke would have been far off at the time.
 
It's irrelevant whether he ends up succeeding or not. He doesn't know the future. We as viewers didn't know the future and whether he would succeed. The point of the mission was to stop the cannon and he wanted to save everyone. That is simply not foolish. You are trying to say it was foolish because he wouldn't succeed but then claim that what Rose did makes sense even though it was likely to kill them both (AND not stop the canon? That just doesn't make any sense.
It's because Poe said there was no chance; that's exposition. That's the story TELLING YOU it would be futile. Rose and Finn and Grace are not the same and the same things are not intended to happen to them. Here's the problem with a lot of you people. You're looking at this in absolutes and overarching laws. That if one thing happens here then so it must follow that the same thing happens there, and to diverge otherwise is an inconsistency or a plot hole. This is wrong. Well, not wrong, more unhelpful.

Kinda irrational.

I'm dealing with the specifics of what's going on within each scene. This is what this scene does. This is what this scene means. It has something to do with the other scenes, but I'm talking about THIS scene. "Scene" is an interchangeable word. Here's a real life example. If you said, "Hey I met a woman who turned out to be a tranny" and I said "Bullshit, anyone with a penis is a man," you can kind of see how the statements are related but really have nothing to do with each other. You're talking about a specific woman you met, and I'm just talking about generalities. They don't really line up in terms of context.

The hard part about this film is that Rey, Poe, Finn, and even Luke are largely wrong through most of it. They've made the wrong choices and are thus put through the crucible in order to learn and gain wisdom. It's not easy watching our heroes make choices we know are wrong, so we fault the film for being poorly written. But that's wrong, too.

Unhelpful.

Finn and Rose ended up surviving because the plot dictated it. How on Earth could Rose know that they would live? This makes absolutely no sense in the context of what was going on and what she did.
Here's why. We know, Poe knows, she knows that Finn is meeting his certain death. At this point in his commitment he's going to die. Martyr, right? That's where we agree. He's going to die.

Listen to the music swell for him:


Rose gambled her life to save him. She doesn't know anything except wanting to save him. If they both die she changes nothing for Finn who is already going to die. But she saved him, yay, and didn't die (bonus).​


Finn carrying Rose would have taken hours. Did you see how far they traveled on SPEEDERS? It's absurd and again Rose put both their lives and everyone elses in danger crashing her speeder into his.
Now who's being irrational.

Did you see when Forrest Gump ran across the United States like a hundred times on some pussy? Listen, you asked. I'm not trying to convince you. But above is the truth. What you said makes a lot of sense too, because for you it didn't work. I get that. And the truth also is: it's not that it makes no sense, but rather YOU don't see the sense in it.

I do, which isn't to say the movie makes any more sense for you than it did five seconds ago. I think that's a pretty rational thought. What do you think?​
 
It's because Poe said there was no chance; that's exposition. That's the story TELLING YOU it would be futile.

Poe saying it doesn't mean the story is telling us there is no chance. It just means Poe thinks there is no chance. But anyway Finn obviously believed there was a chance which he wanted to take. Given his character that scene and decision does make sense. How many characters from other movies can we name that are willing to attempt to give up their lives just or the chance to stop the enemy from killing their friends? That isn't crazy. What doesn't make sense is Rose trying to stop him. Does Rose not care about the mission? Protecting the other people? Why does Rose think that doing what she did would keep them alive? It's nonsensical.

Rose and Finn and Grace are not the same and the same things are not intended to happen to them. Here's the problem with a lot of you people. You're looking at this in absolutes and overarching laws. That if one thing happens here then so it must follow that the same thing happens there, and to diverge otherwise is an inconsistency or a plot hole. This is wrong. Well, not wrong, more unhelpful.

I never made that claim in any way. I never said that Finn HAD to martyr himself at all. I was saying the scene made some sense until Rose slammed into him. They could have taken that plot out completely or done it in many different ways. What they did do was ridiculous. The only thing I called a plot hole was Finn dragging Rose an absurd distance without the enemy caring. They were essentially teleported by the plot.

I'm dealing with the specifics of what's going on within each scene. This is what this scene does. This is what this scene means. It has something to do with the other scenes, but I'm talking about THIS scene. "Scene" is an interchangeable word. Here's a real life example. If you said, "Hey I met a woman who turned out to be a tranny" and I said "Bullshit, anyone with a penis is a man," you can kind of see how the statements are related but really have nothing to do with each other. You're talking about a specific woman you met, and I'm just talking about generalities. They don't really line up in terms of context.

I don't really see what the above has to do with my points about this scene.

The hard part about this film is that Rey, Poe, Finn, and even Luke are largely wrong through most of it. They've made the wrong choices and are thus put through the crucible in order to learn and gain wisdom. It's not easy watching our heroes make choices we know are wrong, so we fault the film for being poorly written. But that's wrong, too.


The film is poorly written when scenes make no sense. It doesn't have much to do with any of them being "wrong". Glaring plot holes shows poor writing. Characters making ludicrous decisions like slamming a vehicle into another vehicle in order to "save him" makes no sense and is therefore poor writing.
Here's why. We know, Poe knows, she knows that Finn is meeting his certain death. At this point in his commitment he's going to die. Martyr, right? That's where we agree. He's going to die.

Listen to the music swell for him:
Rose gambled her life to save him. She doesn't know anything except wanting to save him. If they both die she changes nothing for Finn who is already going to die. But she saved him, yay, and didn't die (bonus).​
No, she gambled both their lives in more ways than one not caring about the mission. Instead of one guy giving his life for the chance of saving everyone we now have two characters who should most certainly die with zero chance of saving everyone. There is no reason to believe they would survive what she did.​
Now who's being irrational.

Did you see when Forrest Gump ran across the United States like a hundred times on some pussy? Listen, you asked. I'm not trying to convince you. But above is the truth. What you said makes a lot of sense too, because for you it didn't work. I get that. And the truth also is: it's not that it makes no sense, but rather YOU don't see the sense in it.
The scene literally doesn't make sense. You can clearly see how far away they are from the base and you also saw how far it was for them on speeders. Finn dragging Rose all the way back that fast without the enemy killing them makes zero sense. It's an obvious plot hole.

I do, which isn't to say the movie makes any more sense for you than it did five seconds ago. I think that's a pretty rational thought. What do you think?
I think it was a terrible scene and plot point that shouldn't have been in the movie at all. The movie seemed to waste so much time trying to make the females look good in this movie at the expense of the men. Poe was bogged down with that terrible plot with Holdo. Finn tries to do something heroic and gets stopped by Rose in a completely illogical way. Rey hardly gets any kind of interesting character development, she is just awesome at everything right away while Luke acts like a bitter old man most of the time.
 
Poe saying it doesn't mean the story is telling us there is no chance. It just means Poe thinks there is no chance. But anyway Finn obviously believed there was a chance which he wanted to take. Given his character that scene and decision does make sense. How many characters from other movies can we name that are willing to attempt to give up their lives just or the chance to stop the enemy from killing their friends? That isn't crazy. What doesn't make sense is Rose trying to stop him. Does Rose not care about the mission? Protecting the other people? Why does Rose think that doing what she did would keep them alive? It's nonsensical.
This is curious to me. It seems like Finn and Rose are doing the exact same thing from the way you've couched their motivations, but Finn's is acceptable whereas Rose's isn't. Are you not cherry-picking? Because it seems like you're doing that.

There was no chance. Not just Poe's expository statement, but also the shoddiness of the construction, Finn establishing the battering ram as have Death Star technology, the fact that he's flying to a laser ....

How bow from this movie? Rose, Grace, Luke; Finn does it like forty-eight times.

I never made that claim in any way. I never said that Finn HAD to martyr himself at all. I was saying the scene made some sense until Rose slammed into him. They could have taken that plot out completely or done it in many different ways. What they did do was ridiculous. The only thing I called a plot hole was Finn dragging Rose an absurd distance without the enemy caring. They were essentially teleported by the plot.

I don't really see what the above has to do with my points about this scene.

Essentially you're right. I was going off on a tangent.
The film is poorly written when scenes make no sense. It doesn't have much to do with any of them being "wrong". Glaring plot holes shows poor writing. Characters making ludicrous decisions like slamming a vehicle into another vehicle in order to "save him" makes no sense and is therefore poor writing.

But if they made sense to me, what then? Does, does this mean I'm a poor audience? I accept things too easily? I was wrong for being entertained?​

I think it was a terrible scene and plot point that shouldn't have been in the movie at all. The movie seemed to waste so much time trying to make the females look good in this movie at the expense of the men.
I don't buy that at all. Namely because they women DON'T look all that good.​
 
This is curious to me. It seems like Finn and Rose are doing the exact same thing from the way you've couched their motivations,


I don't know where you are getting that from. What Finn is doing is completely different than what Rose is doing. Finn's actually makes some sense given the situation.

but Finn's is acceptable whereas Rose's isn't. Are you not cherry-picking? Because it seems like you're doing that.

I haven no idea how you can come to that conclusion when I have clearly explained how Rose's choice makes absolutely no sense in that situation.

There was no chance. Not just Poe's expository statement, but also the shoddiness of the construction, Finn establishing the battering ram as have Death Star technology, the fact that he's flying to a laser ....

So why are you saying there was no chance for Finn to get to the laser but you are ignoring how impossible it is for Finn to drag rose back to the base? There was definitely a low chance of Finn succeeding but there was still a chance and there isn't anything to point to say there was absolutely no chance. All that has to happen is the enemies miss the speeder until he rams the canon. It's unlikely but possible.

But if they made sense to me, what then? Does, does this mean I'm a poor audience? I accept things too easily? I was wrong for being entertained?

People like or accept different things. I like movies that have issues with writing and such as well. I was just looking for you to say "yeah the scene was weird and didn't make a lot of rational sense but I still enjoyed it". I would be fine with that.
I don't buy that at all. Namely because they women DON'T look all that good.​

They had holdo end up being "right" and talk down about Poe then she got to martyr herself. Rey always looks good. Rose got to "save Finn" if that's what you want to call it. I just didn't' see the men do much in this movie. Luke did end up doing something at the end but it wasn't nearly as good as I wanted it to be. Tricking Kylo would have made so much more sense if Luke survived into the next movie. If he was going to die then a real battle with him actually there would have been better.
 
I see that people didn't like the way Luke was handled, but I don't agree that any of it's out of line with the courageous Jedi who came in unarmed to save his father's soul. Not only did I feel it was true to his character, I really enjoyed the new chapter of his arc because he felt like he was living out a new part of his life. Something I'd never really seen before, and so I just wanted to follow him to see where he went. STAR WARS is familiar to me as my childhood and in some ways WAS my childhood when I factor in playing with toys. And this felt new and fresh, but also familiar and not just because it's Mark Hamill. I really liked Luke in this. He was bad ass. I wanted to be there with him at the end, and I thought this was a glorious end. Save the Rebellion single-handedly, using the Force, embarking on a journey that veered into the Dark Side to come out the other side with purpose, proficiency and finally peace. He fought and was almost defeated by the only foe who could match the might of Luke Skywalker: himself. He surmounted inner demons, as must we all, and gained even more nobility and cemented his already immortal status. He died alone, yet he died for something bigger than any of us. He knew he would die, and he did it anyway. How do I not call that a hero? How is that a slap in the face? I don't really know.

I get that people wanted more chop-socky, but there's also the fact that we want drama-based action. With his two fight scenes, I think people place too much importance on the notion that, yes, each one is essentially a glorified sparring match. It's just the dramatic and emotional stakes were very high. Both Rey and Luke are teetering on the Dark Side when they fight. People say Rey is OP and defeated Luke, but that's not anywhere close to the truth. It's just that Luke doesn't have to move much that it seems like he's not doing much, but watch:

He only looks like he's defeated beneath the glare of the laser sword. This sequence is a direct homage to the RETURN, with Rey standing where Luke was, and Luke assuming the visage of his father. Both are momentarily blinded by rage but manage to keep themselves in check. He's not defeated -- he's finally forced to face himself and knows he needs to do something and not just resign himself to death.

I can't believe people don't like his duel with Krylo. How the music and imagery swells from his entrance on Crait to squaring off against the remaining First Order? What more did they want?!

Earlier Mike cited how I talked about subverting expectation, and I get the sense he's thinking more about character direction and story left-turns. When you expect one thing to happen but another things happens instead. Sometimes these twists are arbitrary and hollow, and I get that antipathy for them.

What I really mean about subverting expectation is DAT FEEL of not knowing how it's going to turn out, and how the film's events make my brain go back and forth screaming, "WHAT THE FUCK IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN? IS HE GOING TO DIE? IS HE GOING TO LIVE?" As I said, SW is as familiar as old houses so this intense not-knowing while steeped deep in the mythos was exhilarating to me. The music is phenomenal and he's walking through a fiery, bloody giant vagina. Reborn.

Fucking phenomenarr. You didn't like that shit? Fuck outta here.


What else? Rose? The space chase plot? There's so much that people hate it's hard to know what you're looking for.​


What a load of shit.

If you found a way to twist amd bend and invent details to make thisnstory work for you, knock yourself out.

But it was bad story telling with large gaps amd details left out to help bring the viewer to understand exactly how the hell luke went feom being the most hopeful, heroic person in the galaxy to this crusty old hateful defeated thing he was on that rock in ireland.

Why make a map so people can find you if you went there to die? Why did han say luke was looking for the last jedi temple?

Why wouldnt you have a character momemt with luke (your main character) when hes finally reunited with his fathers light saber???

What was his reaction when he found out his best friend and brother in law had died???

What were his three lessons?

What was the purpose of the green milk scene?

Why didnt we the audience get a proper set up with the force power luke used im the climax of this movie so we know what the hell was going on and what the stakes were for his using it?

How do rey, somone who didnt even know the force was a real thing a week ago, defeat luke skywalker the most powerful jedi in the galaxy in a sparring match?

Why did luke act annoyed at the sight of the yoda ghost? Does he visit often or something?

Why was luke going to burn down those ancient jedi texts?

Why did luke suddenly want to kill a family member under a suspicion of going to the darkside after he just risked everything to redeem his father because he believed their might be a sliver of good left in him?

Why was luke miserable yet making jokes?

Why did luke swing to the other side of the mountain to fish? He just raised the pole and put it down in roughly the same spot.

Why did luke look younger and thinner im his force projection? And why use that blue lightsaber and not the green one? And why didnt ren see that and know what was up?

What was the point of the dice?

How could luke kiss leia as a force projection?

All these questions can be answered with “ bad writing bad direction”

Even the actor playing luke hated this movie and hia character in it. That should tell you something.
 
What a load of shit.

If you found a way to twist amd bend and invent details to make thisnstory work for you, knock yourself out.

But it was bad story telling with large gaps amd details left out to help bring the viewer to understand exactly how the hell luke went feom being the most hopeful, heroic person in the galaxy to this crusty old hateful defeated thing he was on that rock in ireland.

Why make a map so people can find you if you went there to die? Why did han say luke was looking for the last jedi temple?

Why wouldnt you have a character momemt with luke (your main character) when hes finally reunited with his fathers light saber???

What was his reaction when he found out his best friend and brother in law had died???

What were his three lessons?

What was the purpose of the green milk scene?

Why didnt we the audience get a proper set up with the force power luke used im the climax of this movie so we know what the hell was going on and what the stakes were for his using it?

How do rey, somone who didnt even know the force was a real thing a week ago, defeat luke skywalker the most powerful jedi in the galaxy in a sparring match?

Why did luke act annoyed at the sight of the yoda ghost? Does he visit often or something?

Why was luke going to burn down those ancient jedi texts?

Why did luke suddenly want to kill a family member under a suspicion of going to the darkside after he just risked everything to redeem his father because he believed their might be a sliver of good left in him?

Why was luke miserable yet making jokes?

Why did luke swing to the other side of the mountain to fish? He just raised the pole and put it down in roughly the same spot.

Why did luke look younger and thinner im his force projection? And why use that blue lightsaber and not the green one? And why didnt ren see that and know what was up?

What was the point of the dice?

How could luke kiss leia as a force projection?

All these questions can be answered with “ bad writing bad direction”

Even the actor playing luke hated this movie and hia character in it. That should tell you something.

I agree with almost all of that, with these few exceptions

1st, the force power stressing him to possible point of death
Kyle tells Rey she can’t be connecting to him by herself, the strain would kill her, this points us to snoke doing it, but also seems like it would be way less of a strain than projecting yourself across the galaxy to a physical form almost. Set the presedent for something of that nature having repercussions

2nd,
Watch there “fight” again,she never comes close to beating him or putting him in any danger of loosing , he was half assing it and still blocking everything she had with ease, she grabs a light saber and he backs up out of reach and for the first time in who knows how long uses the force again to stop himself in air.

I’m sure he could have force pulled that lightsaber to him instead at anytime and taken that shit from her. Under first watch I had same feelings until I watched it again and payed more attention to the scene.

3rd,
Why does Luke look younger and thinner? We don’t know how force projection works, we don’t know if how everyone sees it is the same, it’s possible you see it as you imagine it, so that was the way he looked the last time Ben and leai saw him, it then how do people who ha e never seen him see him?
Maybe he chose that because that’s how he has seen himself the last time he was around a mirror and doesn’t know how the aging has changed him.
The blue light saber? This threw me for a loop but let me know something was wrong, along with him looking younger. I knew something was amiss. It was the directors way of showing us something wasn’t right, but would have made more sense for him to be older and with the green, and been a bigger shock when we find out it’s a projection.

4th,
The dice were to be a keep sake of Hans and his way of letting her know he knew he was gone

Those are my takes on it though
 
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I don't know where you are getting that from. What Finn is doing is completely different than what Rose is doing. Finn's actually makes some sense given the situation. I haven no idea how you can come to that conclusion when I have clearly explained how Rose's choice makes absolutely no sense in that situation.
Because both Rose and Finn are putting their lives on the line for something the believe is right and know they have almost zero chance of surviving, let alone winning. They're both doing it for their friends. They're both abandoning reason.

The difference being we are told Finn won't succeed; you call this bad writing, and that's something I can't really dispute even though I don't agree. I won't stop how you feel about it, but I can say that you're mistaken, which isn't to say you're wrong. It's only meant to alleviate, because, really, I'm on your side.​
So why are you saying there was no chance for Finn to get to the laser but you are ignoring how impossible it is for Finn to drag rose back to the base? There was definitely a low chance of Finn succeeding but there was still a chance and there isn't anything to point to say there was absolutely no chance. All that has to happen is the enemies miss the speeder until he rams the canon. It's unlikely but possible.
Because that's how the story dictated it. You said that yourself.

I don't like badly written movies either, or nonsensical logistics, so let me pull an example from my life to illustrate. I initially hated MAN OF STEEL because it deviated from the core of Superman's ideology of no-killing, so you can imagine how frustrated I was by Superman killing Zod.

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Superman could have done anything else: flown with Zod into space, spun them both around, he'd be fast enough to whisk that family away. For god's sake Zod's just looking with his eyes -- it's SO EASY to prevent that. What you felt about Finn and Rose coming back to the fort, I felt that with this. But during this moment, Superman knows Zod will never stop, well, because he says so and because of this pretty awesome (if on-the-nose) speech:


This is where exposition melds with dialogue. It's his opinion and he's in the heat of the moment -- but it's also the story establishing that if Superman allows Zod to live he'll only kill more people. This is the flip of the Joker Dilemma when Batman asks himself, "How many people have I killed by letting you live?" Still Batman never kills him, and this is, another, flip side of the Jesus theme. Batman takes on the sins of his villains.

This scene from MAN OF STEEL might be poorly written, but it's not nonsense. It provides the groundwork for Superman's decision, which is intended to lead into his overall philosophy. He doesn't want to kill BECAUSE of this experience. This is his learning moment.

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Coming to the appreciation that Snyder's doing something very different with his take on Superman, the movie then became easier to enjoy. I don't know about you, but I like liking things more than I like hating things.​

People like or accept different things. I like movies that have issues with writing and such as well. I was just looking for you to say "yeah the scene was weird and didn't make a lot of rational sense but I still enjoyed it". I would be fine with that.
Yeah the scene was weird and didn't make a lot of rational sense but I still enjoyed it.
They had holdo end up being "right" and talk down about Poe then she got to martyr herself. Rey always looks good. Rose got to "save Finn" if that's what you want to call it. I just didn't' see the men do much in this movie.
You're on dangerous ground here, but don't take that the wrong way. When you said the women look good here I didn't stop to consider what you really meant. To me, looking good is about depiction and in that vein, I'd say Holdo's condescension and her lack of disclosure that led to mutiny don't look good. She wasn't right. Rey doesn't look good either, because she's wrong about Kylo and Luke and makes tons of mistakes. She wasn't right. Rose is fat. That's just wrong.

But, what you mean is the women are meant to look superior, and that's the dangerous ground.

The anti-SJW backlash pretends that STAR WARS is trying to make women look good at the cost of men, but that's not true. STAR WARS is injecting more female characters; that's it.

Now go with me on this: outside of one or two lines of dialogue there's nothing about Rey, Rose, and Holdo that is distinctly female. I mean, yes appearance -- but if you were to switch actors and genders there would be minimal difference to the story. When it comes to the story these characters are incidentally female.

These are characters -- they're not male or female. They are plot devices. We are ASCRIBING onto these characters gender idiosyncrasies, and projecting our fear of inferiority or whatever that is inside of us. Sure the concept of "gender" is bolstered by the use of actresses, yes, but it's a mistake to think that these characters are making some gender-political point that must be acknowledged in real life. A mistake that damages oneself.

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Luke did end up doing something at the end but it wasn't nearly as good as I wanted it to be. Tricking Kylo would have made so much more sense if Luke survived into the next movie. If he was going to die then a real battle with him actually there would have been better.
God I love that scene. I swore the film was gonna end just at the showdown, and when it didn't I was like he's going to martyr himself, and when he survived the blasters I was like WTFFFFFFFFF, and it totally had me, then when they did the reveal I went WHOOAAAAAA he fucking made ... shit, he's not going to make it?!? What a roller coaster.​
What a load of shit.

If you found a way to twist amd bend and invent details to make thisnstory work for you, knock yourself out.

But it was bad story telling with large gaps amd details left out to help bring the viewer to understand exactly how the hell luke went feom being the most hopeful, heroic person in the galaxy to this crusty old hateful defeated thing he was on that rock in ireland.

Why make a map so people can find you if you went there to die? Why did han say luke was looking for the last jedi temple?

Why wouldnt you have a character momemt with luke (your main character) when hes finally reunited with his fathers light saber???

What was his reaction when he found out his best friend and brother in law had died???

What were his three lessons?

What was the purpose of the green milk scene?

Why didnt we the audience get a proper set up with the force power luke used im the climax of this movie so we know what the hell was going on and what the stakes were for his using it?

How do rey, somone who didnt even know the force was a real thing a week ago, defeat luke skywalker the most powerful jedi in the galaxy in a sparring match?

Why did luke act annoyed at the sight of the yoda ghost? Does he visit often or something?

Why was luke going to burn down those ancient jedi texts?

Why did luke suddenly want to kill a family member under a suspicion of going to the darkside after he just risked everything to redeem his father because he believed their might be a sliver of good left in him?

Why was luke miserable yet making jokes?

Why did luke swing to the other side of the mountain to fish? He just raised the pole and put it down in roughly the same spot.

Why did luke look younger and thinner im his force projection? And why use that blue lightsaber and not the green one? And why didnt ren see that and know what was up?

What was the point of the dice?

How could luke kiss leia as a force projection?

All these questions can be answered with “ bad writing bad direction”

Even the actor playing luke hated this movie and hia character in it. That should tell you something.
I didn't read a fucking word of that.
 
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Because both Rose and Finn are putting their lives on the line for something the believe is right and know they have almost zero chance of surviving, let alone winning. They're both doing it for their friends. They're both abandoning reason.​
Putting your life on the line for the chance of saving everyone you love on a mission for that purpose is a noble thing. Finn isn't directly risking someone elses life for a selfish reason. He is risking his own life to save others. Rose didn't do that AT ALL. She ruined Finn's chance of saving others on the mission that she should care about and she did it for the dumbest reason ever. She wants to "save him" by almost certainly killing him. That is pure nonsense.

The difference being we are told Finn won't succeed; you call this bad writing, and that's something I can't really dispute even though I don't agree. I won't stop how you feel about it, but I can say that you're mistaken, which isn't to say you're wrong. It's only meant to alleviate, because, really, I'm on your side.

We are not told that Finn won't succeed.

Because that's how the story dictated it. You said that yourself.
I don't like badly written movies either, or nonsensical logistics, so let me pull an example from my life to illustrate. I initially hated MAN OF STEEL because it deviated from the core of Superman's ideology of no-killing, so you can imagine how frustrated I was by Superman killing Zod.

Superman could have done anything else: flown with Zod into space, spun them both around, he'd be fast enough to whisk that family away. For god's sake Zod's just looking with his eyes -- it's SO EASY to prevent that. What you felt about Finn and Rose coming back to the fort, I felt that with this. But during this moment, Superman knows Zod will never stop, well, because he says so and because of this pretty awesome (if on-the-nose) speech:
Superman killing Zod might be slightly weird for fans who believe superman never kills anyone. But that critique is no where near what happened with Finn and Rose. A scene that made no sense on any level.
Yeah the scene was weird and didn't make a lot of rational sense but I still enjoyed it.
You're on dangerous ground here, but don't take that the wrong way. When you said the women look good here I didn't stop to consider what you really meant. To me, looking good is about depiction and in that vein, I'd say Holdo's condescension and her lack of disclosure that led to mutiny don't look good. She wasn't right. Rey doesn't look good either, because she's wrong about Kylo and Luke and makes tons of mistakes. She wasn't right. Rose is fat. That's just wrong.​
Holdo only looks bad when you dissect the character and demonstrate how it's bad and poor writing. The movie ended up making her into the hero. The person smarter and better than Poe who the movie says is just a hot head pilot. Holdo had a plan the whole time. She wasn't the bad guy that Poe thought she was. She in the end the movie said she was right.
But, what you mean is the women are meant to look superior, and that's the dangerous ground.
The anti-SJW backlash pretends that STAR WARS is trying to make women look good at the cost of men, but that's not true. STAR WARS is injecting more female characters; that's it.

The women certainly looked superior from how the movie was portraying them. If the movie was only injecting more female characters that wouldn't be a problem but there is just too any issues with how they did it for it to be a coincidence. The men just look bad and weak overall. Holdo is superior over Poe. Rose is shown to "save" Finn and makes a moral moment out of it. Rey just dominates anyone and everyone she meets because she is the ultimate Mary Sue. Luke hardly teaches her anything. If anything Luke is the one that has to learn some kind of lesson because he is just being whiny bitch sitting on that planet.

Now go with me on this: outside of one or two lines of dialogue there's nothing about Rey, Rose, and Holdo that is distinctly female. I mean, yes appearance -- but if you were to switch actors and genders there would be minimal difference to the story. When it comes to the story these characters are incidentally female.

I'm really not following whatever point you are trying to make her. It doesn't really matter how much they "act female" whatever that means. It just matters that they are female.

These are characters -- they're not male or female.

No. Just no. They were written as male or female for distinct purposes from the writers.

God I love that scene. I swore the film was gonna end just at the showdown, and when it didn't I was like he's going to martyr himself, and when he survived the blasters I was like WTFFFFFFFFF, and it totally had me, then when they did the reveal I went WHOOAAAAAA he fucking made ... shit, he's not going to make it?!? What a roller coaster.

I don't know how anyone could enjoy him dying. He had no need to die at all.

We didn't even get a real fight scene. It was just some exposition and Luke dodging a lot. The trick would have paid off a lot if it really meant something but it didn't. I can't believe the writers and director thought this was good.
 
We are not told that Finn won't succeed.
Jesus.​
Holdo only looks bad when you dissect the character and demonstrate how it's bad and poor writing. The movie ended up making her into the hero. The person smarter and better than Poe who the movie says is just a hot head pilot. Holdo had a plan the whole time. She wasn't the bad guy that Poe thought she was. She in the end the movie said she was right.
Where did she say that?

Where we differ is that I don't look at the film from hindsight, when all the secrets have been revealed and the twists and turns fulfilled. I look at the movie as a thing that is happening and during the film Holdo is regarded as an antagonist, an obstacle for our heroes Poe, Finn, and Rose. Holdo does not exist on her own, to me, she is a fixture inside Poe's character arc. Her heroism I apply to Poe.

It kinda kills me that you're okay with the film saying Poe is just a hot head pilot, words Holdo said, but you're not okay when I say Poe established that Finn won't succeed. You're back and forth on several issues inconsistently.What kinda doesn't make sense, and don't take this too harshly, is your reasoning. The film makes sense. You just don't want to accept it.​
No. Just no. They were written as male or female for distinct purposes from the writers.

God Bless You.

I don't know how anyone could enjoy him dying. He had no need to die at all.
I wept and cheered and wept and was filled with awe.

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Any other parts you've failed to understand? I've got a couple of weeks, we could go over the logistics of BB-8's magnetic drive.​
 
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