STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

If you have seen STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI, how would you rate it?


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;)

Because both Rose and Finn are putting their lives on the line for something the believe is right and know they have almost zero chance of surviving, let alone winning. They're both doing it for their friends. They're both abandoning reason.

The difference being we are told Finn won't succeed; you call this bad writing, and that's something I can't really dispute even though I don't agree. I won't stop how you feel about it, but I can say that you're mistaken, which isn't to say you're wrong. It's only meant to alleviate, because, really, I'm on your side.​

Because that's how the story dictated it. You said that yourself.

I don't like badly written movies either, or nonsensical logistics, so let me pull an example from my life to illustrate. I initially hated MAN OF STEEL because it deviated from the core of Superman's ideology of no-killing, so you can imagine how frustrated I was by Superman killing Zod.

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Superman could have done anything else: flown with Zod into space, spun them both around, he'd be fast enough to whisk that family away. For god's sake Zod's just looking with his eyes -- it's SO EASY to prevent that. What you felt about Finn and Rose coming back to the fort, I felt that with this. But during this moment, Superman knows Zod will never stop, well, because he says so and because of this pretty awesome (if on-the-nose) speech:


This is where exposition melds with dialogue. It's his opinion and he's in the heat of the moment -- but it's also the story establishing that if Superman allows Zod to live he'll only kill more people. This is the flip of the Joker Dilemma when Batman asks himself, "How many people have I killed by letting you live?" Still Batman never kills him, and this is, another, flip side of the Jesus theme. Batman takes on the sins of his villains.

This scene from MAN OF STEEL might be poorly written, but it's not nonsense. It provides the groundwork for Superman's decision, which is intended to lead into his overall philosophy. He doesn't want to kill BECAUSE of this experience. This is his learning moment.

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Coming to the appreciation that Snyder's doing something very different with his take on Superman, the movie then became easier to enjoy. I don't know about you, but I like liking things more than I like hating things.​


Yeah the scene was weird and didn't make a lot of rational sense but I still enjoyed it.

You're on dangerous ground here, but don't take that the wrong way. When you said the women look good here I didn't stop to consider what you really meant. To me, looking good is about depiction and in that vein, I'd say Holdo's condescension and her lack of disclosure that led to mutiny don't look good. She wasn't right. Rey doesn't look good either, because she's wrong about Kylo and Luke and makes tons of mistakes. She wasn't right. Rose is fat. That's just wrong.

But, what you mean is the women are meant to look superior, and that's the dangerous ground.

The anti-SJW backlash pretends that STAR WARS is trying to make women look good at the cost of men, but that's not true. STAR WARS is injecting more female characters; that's it.

Now go with me on this: outside of one or two lines of dialogue there's nothing about Rey, Rose, and Holdo that is distinctly female. I mean, yes appearance -- but if you were to switch actors and genders there would be minimal difference to the story. When it comes to the story these characters are incidentally female.

These are characters -- they're not male or female. They are plot devices. We are ASCRIBING onto these characters gender idiosyncrasies, and projecting our fear of inferiority or whatever that is inside of us. Sure the concept of "gender" is bolstered by the use of actresses, yes, but it's a mistake to think that these characters are making some gender-political point that must be acknowledged in real life. A mistake that damages oneself.

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God I love that scene. I swore the film was gonna end just at the showdown, and when it didn't I was like he's going to martyr himself, and when he survived the blasters I was like WTFFFFFFFFF, and it totally had me, then when they did the reveal I went WHOOAAAAAA he fucking made ... shit, he's not going to make it?!? What a roller coaster.​

I didn't read a fucking word of that.


I expect nothing less from you.
 
Where did she say that?
Remember when the movie made you think she was bad or incompetent and then told you that she had a plan the whole time? That was how they said she was right. Then Holdo and Leia acted all condescending toward PoE.
Where we differ is that I don't look at the film from hindsight, when all the secrets have been revealed and the twists and turns fulfilled. I look at the movie as a thing that is happening and during the film Holdo is regarded as an antagonist, an obstacle for our heroes Poe, Finn, and Rose. Holdo does not exist on her own, to me, she is a fixture inside Poe's character arc. Her heroism I apply to Poe.
Why do you think that it being revealed later in the movie makes any difference at all? The movie literally made her a hero. That is what happened. Holdo was only an antagonist for a short period of time because of a weird misunderstanding that also didn't make any sense. It's another example of bad writing that took up a bunch of time in the movie and made it worse. She ultimately was revealed to be a hero in the movie.
It kinda kills me that you're okay with the film saying Poe is just a hot head pilot, words Holdo said, but you're not okay when I say Poe established that Finn won't succeed. You're back and forth on several issues inconsistently.What kinda doesn't make sense, and don't take this too harshly, is your reasoning. The film makes sense. You just don't want to accept it.

There is a very big difference here. I'm not making the claim that Poe is just a hot head pilot. I was using Holdo's quote to make the point about Holdo being made superior to Poe. Talking down to him. When Poe said they weren't going to make it that was how he assessed the situation and he could be right and he could be wrong. We all agree there was a low chance of success. I don't know why that's a big point of contention with you because it changes nothing about my argument in regards to Rose's choice making absolutely no sense. Again, Finn was going to sacrifice his life for the small chance of saving everyone. Rose ended any chance of success to almost certainly kill both of them.​

Any other parts you've failed to understand? I've got a couple of weeks, we could go over the logistics of BB-8's magnetic drive.​
Do you honestly think that you have adequately defended that scene? You thought Rose decision made sense? Was it not a great example of bad writing with an obvious plot hole?
 
Remember when the movie made you think she was bad or incompetent and then told you that she had a plan the whole time? That was how they said she was right. Then Holdo and Leia acted all condescending toward PoE.
I misread what you wrote. You misread what the film wrote. They weren't being condescending. They truly like him, but he disobeyed orders and things had to happen. It got messy for sure.​
Do you honestly think that you have adequately defended that scene? You thought Rose decision made sense? Was it not a great example of bad writing with an obvious plot hole?
Fuckyeah. I've brought up character decisions, exposition. I've delineated other ways you can interpret what you saw. Meanwhile you're hung up on fake distance. Don't get me wrong. It's fine you didn't like it, but I'm not defending anything. Just because you attack something doesn't mean my rebuttal is defense. If I explained to you why you were burned by a fire and how to avoid it, I'm not defending fire. You asked me to respond to specific questions -- don't call my willingness to converse with you "defense." I'm not making any assertions beyond the film or bending things to suit the narrative. That's the narrative. That's the impact. How I felt about the film issn't predicated on some apologistic mental chicanery.​
 
I misread what you wrote. You misread what the film wrote. They weren't being condescending. They truly like him, but he disobeyed orders and things had to happen. It got messy for sure.​

Well, I suppose you could say this comes down to viewer interpretation. One or the other will be objectively true, based on the net combined intentions of writer, director and actor(s). I think the condescension regarding Poe is laid on pretty thick in the conversation between Leia and Holdo, but I've discussed that before. Teachers say the same sorts of things about problem children. I think the intentions of the artists, especially Rian Johnson, are quite clearly a "matronizing" condescension, but I can't prove it mathematically.
 
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While EVERYONE is looking at this, is it unbelievable the two little minority kids could sneak by?

Rose was unconsious, so Finn had to carry her miles, through desert, back to the base, with no cover to hide behind.

Nothing to obsure the view of anyone in the AT-ATs, and nothing to hide behind if they were shot at.

Yet, they conventely weren't shot at.

There's only two explanations as to why this narriative oversight was overlooked - Plot Hole or Plot Armor.
 
I misread what you wrote. You misread what the film wrote. They weren't being condescending. They truly like him, but he disobeyed orders and things had to happen. It got messy for sure.​
It came across as condescending to a lot of fans after everything that had happened. Poe didn't accomplish anything in this sequence. He was supposed to just trust Holdo and ended up making a pointless mutiny which ends with Leia shooting him. Then they say they like him. It was so weird. I would like to see the men looking awesome and not wasting time just to make the women look good.

Fuckyeah. I've brought up character decisions, exposition. I've delineated other ways you can interpret what you saw. Meanwhile you're hung up on fake distance. Don't get me wrong. It's fine you didn't like it, but I'm not defending anything. Just because you attack something doesn't mean my rebuttal is defense. If I explained to you why you were burned by a fire and how to avoid it, I'm not defending fire. You asked me to respond to specific questions -- don't call my willingness to converse with you "defense." I'm not making any assertions beyond the film or bending things to suit the narrative. That's the narrative. That's the impact. How I felt about the film issn't predicated on some apologistic mental chicanery.

I believe I originally asked if you wanted to defend some of the biggest problems in the movie. I don't know what you mean by "fake distance". What they did was simply not believable to anyone paying attention and being honest about it. My position is that this scene had very obvious bad writing in it. If you agree with me then there isn't anything to talk about.
 
There are fans who are still trying to defend this movie?

<AckbarTrap>

I'm pretty sure when that guy takes a shit, he get's as emotional and "moved".

The best part is Marriah Larry thinks he's speaking on some higher plain of movie understanding...Yet all I'm reading is an idiot stretching scene truth's and details to fill plot holes, bad writing and divisive agendas that were scattered all throughout that fuckin movie.

Really if you want to look at entertainment with this much bullshit on your eye glasses, you could talk your way into believing that every episode of "The Golden Girls" was written like Shakespeare.

This guy is a miracle! I hope he keeps posting though.
 
Yet all I'm reading is an idiot stretching scene truth's and details to fill plot holes, bad writing and divisive agendas that were scattered all throughout that fuckin movie

Believe it or not, sometimes that's warranted and excusable.

Screenwriters, directors, and editors sometimes make mistakes from the inside which those of us on the outside interpret as lazy & reckless filmaking.

Put if the otherwise high-quality film is enjoyable, its easily forgivable.

The problem with TLJ, is the ENTIRE FILM is covered and layered with these types of mistakes which requires the viewer to justify & excuse the events of the film.

That's not just flawed filmmaking, that's arrogant filmmaking based on the contempt the filmakers have for the viewers.

"We can make the shittiest Star Wars film ever, and it'll still make over a billion dollars!"
 
I agree with almost all of that, with these few exceptions

1st, the force power stressing him to possible point of death
Kyle tells Rey she can’t be connecting to him by herself, the strain would kill her, this points us to snoke doing it, but also seems like it would be way less of a strain than projecting yourself across the galaxy to a physical form almost. Set the presedent for something of that nature having repercussions

Not a bad theory but weak then in implementation. Most reactions to Luke's death were met with "wait what?" "why??" "oh that's fucking lame!?, is he dead then???" So if you have a device like this new force ability that, when used will/could kill the user, you need to foreshadow that shit with a hammer to your audience.

A recent example of this where it was done well, was in the Avengers movie when, several times and very pointedly it was explained that Thanos could kill half the galaxy with a snap of his fingers. They repeated this very important detail several times and hammered it home to the audience so that we all knew when he did it, what exactly had happened and why everyone was suddenly dissolving.

So while I don't doubt your reasoning, what you are suggesting was again weak writing as it wasn't really hammered home or explained.

2nd,
Watch there “fight” again,she never comes close to beating him or putting him in any danger of loosing , he was half assing it and still blocking everything she had with ease, she grabs a light saber and he backs up out of reach and for the first time in who knows how long uses the force again to stop himself in air.

I’m sure he could have force pulled that lightsaber to him instead at anytime and taken that shit from her. Under first watch I had same feelings until I watched it again and payed more attention to the scene.

From what I remember, he was backing up while she was swinging wildly, blocking all her attacks until she decided to go ham and get the laser sword...causing Luke to stumble and her to stand over top of him in a threatening manner with him at her mercy. Mary Sue strikes again!

Now could he have disarmed her? Maybe? I dunno. Would have been nice if he took control and not let his angry young student hover over top of him with a freakin light saber. Would have been even more special if he used his force to prevent her from getting the light saber to begin with like Snoke did.

A lot of things would have been better than the visual of Rey standing over top of Luke looking victorious and dominate in the scene. But the force is female so this is what we get now.

3rd,
Why does Luke look younger and thinner? We don’t know how force projection works, we don’t know if how everyone sees it is the same, it’s possible you see it as you imagine it, so that was the way he looked the last time Ben and leai saw him, it then how do people who ha e never seen him see him?
Maybe he chose that because that’s how he has seen himself the last time he was around a mirror and doesn’t know how the aging has changed him.
The blue light saber? This threw me for a loop but let me know something was wrong, along with him looking younger. I knew something was amiss. It was the directors way of showing us something wasn’t right, but would have made more sense for him to be older and with the green, and been a bigger shock when we find out it’s a projection.

None of these explanations are wrong the problem here is again, set up. These small details all make no sense because the shitty writer/director failed to explain it to us. So we are all left to interpret what the hell we saw, but the problem here is that at this point, none of these details really matter to dwell on because Luke is dead, Leia is dead...the story's long since moved past that moment so it really doesn't matter. To sum this up, we are left puzzled with these details, but could care less to dig into trying to understand why we saw what we saw...because all the players involved are worthless now to the story moving forward.

4th,
The dice were to be a keep sake of Hans and his way of letting her know he knew he was gone

You are absolutely right about the dice but uhhh, again...shitty fucking set up. The director meant for the dice to be this important symbol of han solo...but I don't really remember the dice in any of 4,5,6 for them to really have any emotional connection for the audience or leia to give gravity to that scene. So they were just kinda tossed in as this "han symbol" that nobody had a connection with.

His BLASTER would have made a better keep sake than a pair of dice nobody really saw before.

So Rian and his bad fucking writing strikes again!
 
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Believe it or not, sometimes that's warranted and excusable.

Screenwriters, directors, and editors sometimes make mistakes from the inside which those of us on the outside interpret as lazy & reckless filmaking.

Put if the otherwise high-quality film is enjoyable, its easily forgivable.

The problem with TLJ, is the ENTIRE FILM is covered and layered with these types of mistakes which requires the viewer to justify & excuse the events of the film.

That's not just flawed filmmaking, that's arrogant filmmaking based on the contempt the filmakers have for the viewers.

"We can make the shittiest Star Wars film ever, and it'll still make over a billion dollars!"

While you are not wrong...my issue is with this checklist for diversity and female empowerment that every fucking film seems to need to have forced into it. It seems to have a higher priority to story telling and character development.

And instead of learning from their mistakes, they are doubling down and calling us who hate bad writing "racist" or "sexist"

One of my favorite action movies was Kill Bill. All fucking female lead cast with all the diversity you could want and yet it didn't jam that fact down my throat.

It was just "fun"
 
Rose was unconsious, so Finn had to carry her miles, through desert, back to the base, with no cover to hide behind.

Nothing to obsure the view of anyone in the AT-ATs, and nothing to hide behind if they were shot at.

Yet, they conventely weren't shot at.

There's only two explanations as to why this narriative oversight was overlooked - Plot Hole or Plot Armor.

Don’t forget the giant red stain allllllllllllll the way back to the base
 
Don’t forget the giant red stain allllllllllllll the way back to the base

And don't forget that Finn miraculously survived the crash completely uninjured, so he was physically capable of carrying Rose (who ain't skinny) all the way back to the base.
 
Are there actually people trying to defend this and saying they enjoyed it? Have they wrote a detailed explanation on why and what they liked? I am genuinely curious..

Because the only one good thing about this film was the scene where the spaceship crashes into the other spaceship in an attempt to save the rebels.

Other than that it was the biggest piece of shit I have ever seen in Star Wars, it made The Phantom Menace seem like A New Hope just because atleast the prequels stayed true to what they were, Star Wars! If you hated them you likely hated Star Wars lore but with this it just scape goats off of the Star Wars name and runs everything into the ground without giving a shit.

Rian Johnson, the guy just don't give two shiny shits, he really don't. I reckon he did it on purpose.
 
Are there actually people trying to defend this and saying they enjoyed it?

I checked out the comments of a few of Mark Hammill's twitter posts, and there are fans who actually consider TLJ to be the BEST Star Wars movie ever.

Yes, they specified its better than Empire Strikes Back.

There are idiots...
There are retards....
And there's now fanboys on twitter.
 
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