STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Clippy]

It's because they're looking at aspects beyond story, and some of the hardcore fans suffer for the developments to the mythos.

I don't think TLJ could have done a much better job in the sense of making Luke a badass, which he totally is, as he is, now. His chief antagonist being none other than himself, his own Dark Side. If he was more of a typical ass-kicker we'd have the same fannish quibbles a la: "If he's so great now, why was he missing in TFA?" or "Does no one know about his Secret Mission?" When you think about the possibility of his being on a secret mission, or stranded somewhere, you start to see his impact being diminished. Already people think Rey is more powerful than Luke, but what will they think when Luke has to recruit younger guys to fight for him, or the Secret Panacea that indicates he needs help. I don't want to see Luke with Stormbringer made by the giant midget.

Luke himself is the deus ex machina -- the ultimate weapon. He needs no one and else nothing else to conquer his enemies.

It was a terrible mistake not to feature Luke more prominently in TFA, and it's unfair TLJ suffers for it.

TFA played it toooo safe

Were too afraid to give Luke any lines and used him as a major hook to lure ppl into sequel

TLJ went full retard in it's opening scene where Luke throws the light saber and locks himself in a room like a teenage girl not a badass

Honestly the tonal shift between the end and beginning of these movies

Watching it back to back must be painful

TFA provided all this buildup and TLJ binded you up with no release

 

[hillelslovak87]

Don’t you dare...

Captain America would be taking a dump the entire movie, Tony Stark would be a depressed single dad, and Bruce Banner would be taking anger management classes and keeping his life under control.

 

[D Train]

It's because they're looking at aspects beyond story, and some of the hardcore fans suffer for the developments to the mythos.

I don't think TLJ could have done a much better job in the sense of making Luke a badass, which he totally is, as he is, now. His chief antagonist being none other than himself, his own Dark Side. If he was more of a typical ass-kicker we'd have the same fannish quibbles a la: "If he's so great now, why was he missing in TFA?" or "Does no one know about his Secret Mission?" When you think about the possibility of his being on a secret mission, or stranded somewhere, you start to see his impact being diminished. Already people think Rey is more powerful than Luke, but what will they think when Luke has to recruit younger guys to fight for him, or the Secret Panacea that indicates he needs help. I don't want to see Luke with Stormbringer made by the giant midget.

Luke himself is the deus ex machina -- the ultimate weapon. He needs no one and nothing else to conquer his enemies.

It was a terrible mistake not to feature Luke more prominently in TFA, and it's unfair TLJ suffers for it.

We've talked about this before I believe. I just disagree that Johnson made Luke a badass. He got knocked down by a girl with a stick and never had an actual fight. I was so hyped to see him be awesome. When I saw him step up to the First Order on Hoth 2.0 I was like, “YESSSSS.” Then I realized it was just a trick and I literally felt empty. Then he died and I felt cheated. I would never get to see him be awesome.
You’re probably right in that people would have found something else to complain about, but I think there wouldn’t be such derision.

 

[minute bull]

Captain America would be taking a dump the entire movie, Tony Stark would be a depressed single dad, and Bruce Banner would be taking anger management classes and keeping his life under control.

Performance Anxiety Hulk is what we got, tho. And depressed single dad you say?

BTW, Fury, wtf WAS Steve the entire film???

Watching it back to back must be painful

Considering how deflated TFA ends, nope. It staggers like a faltering foal worse than RETURN OF THE KING once Kylo starts losing to Rey.

This is their introduction to each other. Most people talk about Mary Sue Rey in terms of powers, and I say the same thing in terms of acceptance.

DON'T YOU FUCCIN' TOUCH HER, SCAVENGER SCUM.

TFA provided all this buildup and TLJ binded you up with no release

I don't really buy into people who say there's nothing to look forward to in the next ones. It's fucking STAR WARS, what don't you expect anymore? (No one cares.) It's the STAR WARS. You come for the STAR WARS. You don't like the STAR WARS you watch the next STAR WARS. Don't tell me you won't watch the STAR WARS you'll watch the STAR WARS stop lying about the STAR WARS.

You’re probably right in that people would have found something else to complain about, but I think there wouldn’t be such derision.

It's not the film's fault people got act the fool because they don't get they way, but I think we understand each other.

 

[D Train]

Captain America would be taking a dump the entire movie, Tony Stark would be a depressed single dad, and Bruce Banner would be taking anger management classes and keeping his life under control.

Serious question, you think Cap’s digestive tract is so efficient that he doesn’t have to poop? I’ve been wondering about this.

 

[hillelslovak87]

Serious question, you think Cap’s digestive tract is so efficient that he doesn’t have to poop? I’ve been wondering about this.

No, that's Captain Korea. Captain America has IBM, considering he can't take the sugar and fat content of 21st century food. It's been a hard adjustment.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

@Myrddin Wild You're talking about my stamina? You're a machine on here, you awe me. There should be a Rocky-style montage for you and the tiny handful of people sticking by this film. I come in and out and have a fun rant when I feel motivated enough, but I can only engage in small doses/sprints.

How cool would it have been if they had a Plageus moment, or a clip showing the 1srt order's rise to power. THere's some rich lore in there. This on the Prequels missed opportunity level. Palpatine's charade could have been incredibly compelling if George didn't have so many yes men sucking his turkey neck.

Speaking of missed opportunites...How KK and JJ didn't see the value of a Luke, Leia and Han reunion is mind boggling. At least 2/3 of the audience (if not more) who helped them make $2 billion wanted to see that. What a bunch of idiots. Despite its shortfalls though, the TFA still left us hungry for more. After TLJ, I don't think many give a shit.

I put the blame of that solely on KK, she cleared that POS and is in charge. Regardless, nothing takes away from Rian making a terrible film. In fact, from what I recall, the only thing he blamed KK for was Leia Poppins.

THis is why I hoped they had a planned trilogy (I think JJ did) they tried to stick to. You know there's a cool story in there. Rian ruined the trilogy's continuity with his bizarro version of SW, it feels so out place.

btw I'm a hater in a circle jerk? That's a pretty big circle lol, no crossing streams plz...It wouldn't matter if I was the only one balls out though. I hated what they did to SW.

I appreciate your light heartedness & nice thingz you said about me... but yes, if you think your point of view is the "majority" then you are being fooled by the circle jerk.

You have to understand that people who like the film are long gone... they are living their lives & enjoying thingz they like & talking about thingz they enjoy & smelling flowers & fooking 10's n stuff while the resistance is still talking about their heartbreak.

I get it... that Star Wars has become a deep part of their psychology after 40 yearz has gone by & we all wanted Luke to rock up & be the ultimate hero, & we all would've enjoyed the 3 getting together... & those are missed opportunities to do a major fan service film, but that's not what they did.

On the real, TFA waz a major fan service film & all the dipsh*ts that dissed it for being that probably helped cause this rift. Maybe they went a little overboard in the opposite direction, but it's not that big of a deal. it really is a great film. You just gotta be able to get past your pretense to recognize it. Drop the "not my Luke" stuff & you're well over half way there, as I honestly believe that if you had the same movie... except that Luke was just hanging out on Ahch-To & was happy to see Rey & eagerly trained her but couldn't go because one of the caretakers was about to have his baby... but he shows up a force projection (just like he did in the actual movie)... then all this resistance about the movie as a whole would be swept under the rug. I mean, people are really bringing up a lot of sh*t that doesn't matter & making it out like it's a major movie flaw. Meanwhile they salivate over other movies with flaws, but they aren't breaking them down. "not my luke" started a rift that made everyone "hyper-critical."

"not my Luke" is what pissed people off so much that they couldn't enjoy anything else & so now they're digging into every single little thing they can & vibing with stupid hater videos who's agenda is to feed off the people who are upset... & the whole thing is getting blown out of proportion.

Anywayz... that's my little rant... but it's exactly the way I see it. It waz an interesting day when one of my broz pointed out that the resistance is just so adamant because they loved the original trilogy so much, & they felt "subverted." So it's really a labor of love the resistance is engaged in. So that said, I have more appreciation with their point of view but I just ask that they can hold back their full on blackout of their beloved universe in order to let them finish telling the fooking story. FFS lets all just chill for a minute & realize the story is only 2/3rds told.

This whole Snoke backstory could go down in Ep. 9 & after 3 minutes of screen time revealing Snoke is Plageus could bring that super richness into the story, & then they tie it in with unexpected ways... & everyone all of a sudden understandz why they held that back for the finale.

Everyone just take a deep breath & chill... & lets just finish watching the story.

 

[Otto!]

I appreciate your light heartedness & nice thingz you said about me... but yes, if you think your point of view is the "majority" then you are being fooled by the circle jerk.

You have to understand that people who like the film are long gone... they are living their lives & enjoying thingz they like & talking about thingz they enjoy & smelling flowers & fooking 10's n stuff while the resistance is still talking about their heartbreak.

I get it... that Star Wars has become a deep part of their psychology after 40 yearz has gone by & we all wanted Luke to rock up & be the ultimate hero, & we all would've enjoyed the 3 getting together... & those are missed opportunities to do a major fan service film, but that's not what they did.

On the real, TFA waz a major fan service film & all the dipsh*ts that dissed it for being that probably helped cause this rift. Maybe they went a little overboard in the opposite direction, but it's not that big of a deal. it really is a great film. You just gotta be able to get past your pretense to recognize it. Drop the "not my Luke" stuff & you're well over half way there, as I honestly believe that if you had the same movie... except that Luke was just hanging out on Ahch-To & was happy to see Rey & eagerly trained her but couldn't go because one of the caretakers was about to have his baby... but he shows up a force projection (just like he did in the actual movie)... then all this resistance about the movie as a whole would be swept under the rug. I mean, people are really bringing up a lot of sh*t that doesn't matter & making it out like it's a major movie flaw. Meanwhile they salivate over other movies with flaws, but they aren't breaking them down. "not my luke" started a rift that made everyone "hyper-critical."

"not my Luke" is what pissed people off so much that they couldn't enjoy anything else & so now they're digging into every single little thing they can & vibing with stupid hater videos who's agenda is to feed off the people who are upset... & the whole thing is getting blown out of proportion.

Anywayz... that's my little rant... but it's exactly the way I see it. It waz an interesting day when one of my broz pointed out that the resistance is just so adamant because they loved the original trilogy so much, & they felt "subverted." So it's really a labor of love the resistance is engaged in. So that said, I have more appreciation with their point of view & I just ask that they can hold back their full on blackout of their beloved universe in order to let them finish telling the fooking story. FFS lets all just chill for a minute & realize the story is only 2/3rds told.

This whole Snoke backstory could go down in Ep. 9 & after 3 minutes of screen time revealing Snoke is Plageus could bring that super richness into the story, & then they tie it in with unexpected ways... & everyone all of a sudden understandz why they held that back for the finale.

Everyone just take a deep breath & chill... & lets finish watching the story.

Well said.

 

[Eusung]

People, even though they acknowledged that TFA was a rehash of ANH, were not that harsh on the film.

The criticism was relatively tame, and most people understood why Lucasfilm chose that direction.

TLJ actually does rehash the OT, but in a different and weird way...it pretty much mimics sets designs and story beats from Empire, and a couple scenes from A New Hope and ROTJ

-Opening scene: evacuating rebel base just as soon as the Empire finds it...except wait, this time there is no ground battle

-Luke and Rey: Luke being an old hermit in exile...but wait, this time he doesn't really train her!!! (just lectures few a few times)

-Rey facing the darkness: It's like Luke in Empire...except instead of seeing himself under the Vader mask, Rey sees herself in mirrors.

-Crate: It LOOKS like the Hoth battle, except wait...it's salt, not snow!!

-Throne room: Rian flat out ripped the dialogue straight out of ROTJ: "I feel the conflict in you"....but wait, this time it's a young girl trying to turn a young Skywalker...and this time the dark Skywalker kills the older Sith Lord type before the protagonist is near dead.

-Canto Bight: Cloud City was often seen as "Space Vegas"

-Luke on Crate: The mentor sacrificing himself to buy time for the good guys...except wait, this time he isn't actually there....but he still vanishes into nothing like Obiwan did.

-The whole theme of "failure is the best teacher" -We've already been there! That's what Luke went through when he went to Cloud City and learned his lesson the hard way....to have Yoda teach him that again 35 years later is just...redundant.

So to me, nothing about TLJ felt fresh. More like getting familiar pizzas that you are used to...but with a few toppings you don't expect on them.

Bladerunner 2049: Now THAT is how you expand on a beloved 1980s story by adding fresh and new lore to it while also feeling true to the spirit of the original.

 

[Clippy]

So to me, nothing about TLJ felt fresh. More like getting familiar pizzas that you are used to...but with a few toppings you don't expect on them.

And the toppings subverted your expectations in bad ways - like some of the toppings were radishes, marshmallows, pine cones - etc etc

 

[TrueBias]

We've talked about this before I believe. I just disagree that Johnson made a Luke a badass. He got knocked down by a girl with a stick and never had an actual fight. I was so hyped to see him be awesome. When I saw him step up to the First Order on Hoth 2.0 I was like, “YESSSSS.” Then I realized it was just a trick and I literally felt empty. Then he died and I felt cheated. I would never get to see him be awesome.
You’re probably right in that people would have found something else to complain about, but I think there wouldn’t be such derision.

To rehash old times, i was feeling bored as fuck in the movie, looked over at my date, asked "do you like this shit, " she shrugs, then luke arrives ..and im like, ohhhhh yeah, finally! A saving grace.

And they fucked that up too.

Damn, come to think of it, they really did manage to fuck up maybe every single element that could be interesting or what could've furthered the story.

Children with the force outside the Skywalker blood line? Who gives a shit! Qui gon, obi wan, sidious, maul, even yoda had the force, fuck the kids.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

At no point in the Movie did it tell us that Rey learned all that shit when she was inside Kylo’s mind.

I actually got this on first viewing. When Rey could manipulate the storm trooper's mind... & she even fumbled the attempt at first... it just clicked with me that she learned that while in Kylo's mind. I actually recognized that Rey was reading Kylo's mind during his mind meld. I mean that's all just really obvious from the movie alone right? He's in her mind... & so she can now read his. This is literally spelled out in the movie. Maybe you didn't get it because of being distraught by "not my Luke" or not really being focused on the movie for whatever reason, but this was a very obvious click for me. The novel just spells it out.

So while we are arguing about things we do not like about the movie, bringing up the later supporting documentation does not help us like the holes we see in the movie itself.

On your points about Rian and JJ and the story, I’ve watched many interviews with Daisy’s, JJ and Rian all talking about these things and Hamill some as well but most of his are just salty from being pissed on.

they all read the script before they acted it out. I have a problem with this thing that the actor's pov is somehow worth more than ours. We've been privy to this universe for 4 decades & so by this time the actors most certainly don't know more than we do. I think it's arguable that an actor of a minor roll might trump what I personally feel about something... so this pov is very flawed imo.

A little bit later when I can get on my PC instead of my phone I’ll revisit this and put together for you what I have seen, and also rewatch and reread it myself(since it has been some time) and we can discuss from there.

Just posting tid bits now I don’t think would put it together correctly.

did you ever do this? I've been working a lot lately... which is why it took me this long to reply to this. I had it cued up but didn't have time to properly respond till now.

As far as the Jedi order stuff I’m sure they had that in mind, it’s been the direction I think they’ve been moving with as shown from some episodes in Rebels and clone wars.

Very good. I will expect your pov moving forward to reflect that you do understand they had an overall direction & that Rian was not this rogue agent who Disney for some silly reason turned over their 4 billion dollar investement over & told him to do wtf he wanted while they were micromanaging Solo & changing directors. The whole convo is just silly. It's not even close to plausable.

no snoke backstory, no parents for Rey

You're saying you think they didn't bring this in from corporate... but I disagree. I think the Snoke reveal is being saved for the finale for a specific purspose. I find it equally silly to think that their 4 billion dollar asset put a main character in place in their main story & somehow a rogue writer waz allowed to give Rey no parents without it fitting into the agenda.

 

[Amerikuracana]

TFA has perhaps the worst rewatchability of any star wars movie.. Including PM. Although, I haven't watched TLJ on tv either, and have had chances.

 

[Amerikuracana]

I actually got this on first viewing. When Rey could manipulate the storm trooper's mind... & she even fumbled the attempt at first... it just clicked with me that she learned that while in Kylo's mind. I actually recognized that Rey was reading Kylo's mind during his mind meld. I mean that's all just really obvious from the movie alone right? He's in her mind... & so she can now read his. This is literally spelled out in the movie. Maybe you didn't get it because of being distraught by "not my Luke" or not really being focused on the movie for whatever reason, but this was a very obvious click for me. The novel just spells it out.



they all read the script before they acted it out. I have a problem with this thing that the actor's pov is somehow worth more than ours. We've been privy to this universe for 4 decades & so by this time the actors most certainly don't know more than we do. I think it's arguable that an actor of a minor roll might trump what I personally feel about something... so this pov is very flawed imo.

did you ever do this? I've been working a lot lately... which is why it took me this long to reply to this. I had it cued up but didn't have time to properly respond till now.

Very good. I will expect your pov moving forward to reflect that you do understand they had an overall direction & that Rian was not this rogue agent who Disney for some silly reason turned over their 4 billion dollar investement over & told him to do wtf he wanted while they were micromanaging Solo & changing directors. The whole convo is just silly. It's not even close to plausable.

You're saying you think they didn't bring this in from corporate... but I disagree. I think the Snoke reveal is being saved for the finale for a specific purspose. I find it equally silly to think that their 4 billion dollar asset put a main character in place in their main story & somehow a rogue writer waz allowed to give Rey no parents without it fitting into the agenda.

It's possible to make TLJ interesting to some degree, depending on what they do going forward. Unlikely, but possible.

 

[Eusung]

TFA has perhaps the worst rewatchability of any star wars movie.. Including PM. Although, I haven't watched TLJ on tv either, and have had chances.

Probably because it mirrors A New Hope so much.

The Last Jedi on the other hand...just kind of frustrating or even depressing on rewatch. I just keep thinking "WTF" or "Man...what could have been" the whole time.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

"Hey remember that time when we decided a great idea would be Luke Skywalker doing next to nothing in a movie when every single long time fan on earth (you know the people who funded this shit for 30 years) wanted him to be exceptional."

-executives

 

[Eusung]

"Hey remember that time when we decided a great idea would be Luke Skywalker doing next to nothing in a movie when every single long time fan on earth (you know the people who funded this shit for 30 years) wanted him to be exceptional."

-executives

Seriously, they clearly built him up by making him the Macguffin in TFA...making the fans even more thirsty for a bad ass Luke.

With the Luke we got in TLJ, you just wonder..in TFA the Resistance was desperate to get Luke back because apparently he is like..their only hope. The First Order recognizes this and "will not rest until Skywalker is destroyed".

I would have been fine with Luke being very powerful, but not as powerful as Snoke...and that he "vanished" because Snoke + the Knights of Ren combined was just too much for him alone...so he went to the Jedi Temple to gain more understanding of Snoke and how his powers work.

And it could have been cool to see Luke not just by himself, but with his few remaining students who are still being trained under him....to prepare for the end game, that end game being Snoke and the Knights of Ren....so much potential there.

The original ending of TFA showed Luke with big boulders levitating around him. Rian Johnson asked JJ Abrams to remove it. Ugh...

 

[Clear Winner]

Seriously, they clearly built him up by making him the Macguffin in TFA...making the fans even more thirsty for a bad ass Luke.

And the straw man argument: "You just wanted "Godly OP Luke from the EU novels" is such BS. Fans would have been satisfied with seeing Luke as kind of like Gandalf - powerful enough to stand out from the rest of the crowd...but not OP to the point where he is taking on enemy armies all by himself.

The original ending of TFA showed Luke with big boulders levitating around him. Rian Johnson asked JJ Abrams to remove it. Ugh...

Would've been hilarious if he used those boulders to smash the crap out of the light sabre Rey just gave him.

 

[Eusung]

Also, I thought this BEFORE I saw the Last Jedi....

They didn't NEED to have Luke being only on that tiny island. Nothing in TFA made it concrete that he was stuck on that tiny island the whole time. Would have been cool to see him and a couple young Jedi completing their training for the end game...the end game being Snoke.

Maybe there are other threats to the New Republic and the Resistance that Luke was fighting against for the past 6 years....like the Knights of Ren or if not them...then an organization separate from The First Order. Maybe when Luke left, this group was the bigger threat, and he underestimated how fast the First Order could grow. Remember, in the outside canon sources, it is stated that the Republic thought Leia was paranoid about the First Order. Maybe Luke thought she was overreacting as well and didn't realize how devastating his absence would be....then he senses those 5 planets being obliterated and realizes he made a grave mistake.

 

[GearSolidMetal]