Steroids, what's your take?

Lawblaw

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Obviously if an MMA fighter is taking steroids, he's ridiculed, called a cheater/juice head/etc and can probably lose most of his credibility.

But what do you think of guys who are using steroids just to get jacked? I'm talking about competitive Bodybuilders and even the jacked guy in your local gym.
 
I'm actually pretty amazed at the number of guys at my gym, who are clearly on gear but don't have the physiques to compete. I'd say that out of the 15 regulars I see every morning, maybe 8-10 are enhanced. From the older guy who I guess likes being jaked at 45+ to the 25 yo guy who is clearly jacked as well but doesn't seem to compete, to the big guys who I guess must be competing (otherwise I don't see the point). There are 1 or 2 pros as well, but these guys are in another league in terms of size, barely look human.

I don't have any issue with them using stuff, to each his own, it's just that the risk is not really worth it if you're just building a physique for the beach. If you're a competitor then it's a different matter. I guess it's cheating but I can see why you'd do it.

I've been on a fat loss program for almost a year and I know I'll have to bulk again in the coming months. I don't think I'll be using gear but the idea has certainly crossed my mind. Even if apparently I could get some advice or source from these guys at the gym (although a few have really bad zits on their upper backs, not sure if that's a sign you're not doing it right or what), I'm too scared of wrecking my hormones to do it at the moment.
I was considering TRT at one point but upping my training regimen and improving my diet has really helped so I'm good for now.
 
As someone with extensive research in the matter and studied various supplementation benefits / risks, here are my two cents:

I'm against any/all supplements, including Steroids. The problem starts from things as basic as MultiVitamins, to BCAA, to Creatine, to finally anabolic steroids, hormones, and pre-cursors. We are conditioned and marketed in a way that makes us look for short cuts to results, and shun anyone who doesn't use supplements because we are using them. But there are a few things to consider.

- Are you at such a high level of conditioning, size, and strength that the only thing left to do is manipulate your hormones? Many people get on the Steroid / Supplements bandwagon in hopes to bypass the hard work and time it takes to build a physique worth having. I would understand the mindset of someone that has reached sub-8% bodyfat, maximum strength, and competing in powerlifting or bodybuilding as their life's mission, deciding to take steroids to go to the "next level". But a common gym goer, wanna-be fighter, or average person that is usually below optimal physical conditions is not a candidate for Steroids.

- Many Supplements/Steroids are NOT FDA approved or ethically tested.
To avoid costs and being exposed, supplement companies do not test their products or attain approvals, by purchasing them you are agreeing to the risk you are taking. Aside from the obvious illegality issues, almost 90% of supplements and hormones out there are not tested and can have drastic effects on your immune system (not forgetting to mention your health). The sad truth is that many men take supplements because they think it is the norm for gym-goers and athletes, thinking it will advance their game / body. While it may very well help them lift more, burn more fat, etc, what they don't pay attention to are the long term irreversible effects it will have on your immune system. If you are not a top level athlete, monitored by a team of coaches and doctors, then don't play with things you do not understand. Many steroid users and supplement users (consuming them over 3-5 years) face various physical and internal complications that they convince themselves are not related to supplements. Examples of side effects are: Liver complications, Kidney Stones, IgE increase, developing allergies, food intolerances, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Yeast Overgrowth in Intestinal tracts, Hormonal Imbalance, Urticaria / Hives, poor insulin sensitivity and dependance on supplements... These are just a few of the very real potential effects of supplements.

- Hypertrophy applies to ALL muscles, this includes your Heart Muscle.
When you consume creatine, whey protein, GH, Steroids, and any muscle altering supplements you MUST understand that it does not target your biceps, pecs, delts, legs, and lats alone... These supplements create a rapid growth environment for any and all Muscles in the body, some of which you do NOT want to overgrow. One of those muscles is your heart. When the heart absorbs pure whey protein, pumps blood that is unnaturally high in Iron/Minerals, and is in a state of hypertrophy due to the training under these conditions, it begins to grow. As the heart grows, your heart pumps harder and raises blood pressure, also wearing and tearing all connecting arteries. This leads to heart palpitations, increased blood pressure, and ultimately heart failure.


I know that all the above is not what many want to hear, and I'm sorry to be 'that person'. I hope that by writing this I can help just one person avoid the fate that many unfortunately walk themselves into by trusting supplement companies who are only developing heavily branded products to fatten their pockets and with no concern for your health. This is a highly lucrative industry and I don't care who tells you they care about their customers and are organic / healthy.. It's all bullshit. What else will they say? "We are chemically created to get you results, without regard for the future"? That isn't a strong slogan.

Think deeply about what goes into your body. When you are 60+, muscles don't matter, power is relative, and your bench press doesn't mean shit. You want to be able to walk right, piss without needing a nap afterwards, and enjoy life.

Eat right, train right, stay flexible and take care of your body, it's the only place you have to live in.

Zeid
 
As someone with extensive research in the matter and studied various supplementation benefits / risks, here are my two cents:

I'm against any/all supplements, including Steroids. The problem starts from things as basic as MultiVitamins, to BCAA, to Creatine, to finally anabolic steroids, hormones, and pre-cursors. We are conditioned and marketed in a way that makes us look for short cuts to results, and shun anyone who doesn't use supplements because we are using them. But there are a few things to consider.

- Are you at such a high level of conditioning, size, and strength that the only thing left to do is manipulate your hormones? Many people get on the Steroid / Supplements bandwagon in hopes to bypass the hard work and time it takes to build a physique worth having. I would understand the mindset of someone that has reached sub-8% bodyfat, maximum strength, and competing in powerlifting or bodybuilding as their life's mission, deciding to take steroids to go to the "next level". But a common gym goer, wanna-be fighter, or average person that is usually below optimal physical conditions is not a candidate for Steroids.

- Many Supplements/Steroids are NOT FDA approved or ethically tested.
To avoid costs and being exposed, supplement companies do not test their products or attain approvals, by purchasing them you are agreeing to the risk you are taking. Aside from the obvious illegality issues, almost 90% of supplements and hormones out there are not tested and can have drastic effects on your immune system (not forgetting to mention your health). The sad truth is that many men take supplements because they think it is the norm for gym-goers and athletes, thinking it will advance their game / body. While it may very well help them lift more, burn more fat, etc, what they don't pay attention to are the long term irreversible effects it will have on your immune system. If you are not a top level athlete, monitored by a team of coaches and doctors, then don't play with things you do not understand. Many steroid users and supplement users (consuming them over 3-5 years) face various physical and internal complications that they convince themselves are not related to supplements. Examples of side effects are: Liver complications, Kidney Stones, IgE increase, developing allergies, food intolerances, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Yeast Overgrowth in Intestinal tracts, Hormonal Imbalance, Urticaria / Hives, poor insulin sensitivity and dependance on supplements... These are just a few of the very real potential effects of supplements.

- Hypertrophy applies to ALL muscles, this includes your Heart Muscle.
When you consume creatine, whey protein, GH, Steroids, and any muscle altering supplements you MUST understand that it does not target your biceps, pecs, delts, legs, and lats alone... These supplements create a rapid growth environment for any and all Muscles in the body, some of which you do NOT want to overgrow. One of those muscles is your heart. When the heart absorbs pure whey protein, pumps blood that is unnaturally high in Iron/Minerals, and is in a state of hypertrophy due to the training under these conditions, it begins to grow. As the heart grows, your heart pumps harder and raises blood pressure, also wearing and tearing all connecting arteries. This leads to heart palpitations, increased blood pressure, and ultimately heart failure.


I know that all the above is not what many want to hear, and I'm sorry to be 'that person'. I hope that by writing this I can help just one person avoid the fate that many unfortunately walk themselves into by trusting supplement companies who are only developing heavily branded products to fatten their pockets and with no concern for your health. This is a highly lucrative industry and I don't care who tells you they care about their customers and are organic / healthy.. It's all bullshit. What else will they say? "We are chemically created to get you results, without regard for the future"? That isn't a strong slogan.

Think deeply about what goes into your body. When you are 60+, muscles don't matter, power is relative, and your bench press doesn't mean shit. You want to be able to walk right, piss without needing a nap afterwards, and enjoy life.

Eat right, train right, stay flexible and take care of your body, it's the only place you have to live in.

Zeid

Hi Zeid,


Can you point me in the direction of scientific studies that back up what you are saying, I'm particularly interested in the one referring to pure whey being absorbed by the heart muscle..........

Also the one that talks about whey and creatine causing unnatural heart enlargement, which will ultimately lead to heart failure, if you train whilst taking them..........

What's your take on Pea protein?
 
Hey Bekim,

Sure thing, below is a link that covers "Cardiac Hypertrophy" and how athletes have recurrently faced this problem due to their hypertrophy based training and supplementation, and others on research of creatine and protein on heart muscle:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768197/
http://www.everydayhealth.com/colum...pplementation-with-creatine-do-to-your-heart/
http://nutritionstudies.org/no-whey-man-ill-pass-on-protein-powder/

Hope they clear things up for you. Natural, Whole foods is always the best option. Nobody is too busy for their own health.

As for Pea Protein, I do not have much research into this and cannot definitively comment, but I'll repeat: Supplements are designed to sell and not to help. If they help, great, but the goal is to sell.

To explain, when protein powders are formulated, they boast their "fast absorbing" properties as though that is a good thing. Our muscles (aesthetic muscles) surely benefit by growing and rebuilding faster with fast absorbing proteins, but our bodies internally were not designed for this. The heart and lungs do not want fast absorbing proteins, as they also recruit available protein to grow and rebuild. Natural foods are not quick absorbing because our digestive system was not designed to absorb it like that.

Think about that.

Zeid
 
Hey Bekim,

Sure thing, below is a link that covers "Cardiac Hypertrophy" and how athletes have recurrently faced this problem due to their hypertrophy based training and supplementation, and others on research of creatine and protein on heart muscle:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768197/
http://www.everydayhealth.com/colum...pplementation-with-creatine-do-to-your-heart/
http://nutritionstudies.org/no-whey-man-ill-pass-on-protein-powder/

Hope they clear things up for you. Natural, Whole foods is always the best option. Nobody is too busy for their own health.

As for Pea Protein, I do not have much research into this and cannot definitively comment, but I'll repeat: Supplements are designed to sell and not to help. If they help, great, but the goal is to sell.

To explain, when protein powders are formulated, they boast their "fast absorbing" properties as though that is a good thing. Our muscles (aesthetic muscles) surely benefit by growing and rebuilding faster with fast absorbing proteins, but our bodies internally were not designed for this. The heart and lungs do not want fast absorbing proteins, as they also recruit available protein to grow and rebuild. Natural foods are not quick absorbing because our digestive system was not designed to absorb it like that.

Think about that.

Zeid

Hi Zeid,


The first study is about anabolic steroids..........I did not ask you for this.......

The second one is not a study and uses the China study as one of it's sources..<45>..........and it's written by a person that is very much pro vegan.

Are you a Vegan...........
 
Bekim,

If you want to refute the fact that the cardiac muscle can grow and decrease in size depending on your nutrition / supplementation please go ahead. If you don't want to heed any warnings and gamble your health go right ahead. I'm just supplying a second opinion on the matter and hopefully let readers of this make a more serious decision about their health when they decide to consume their "Mocha Choca Minted Isolate Whey Protein".

For your Vegan comment, I'm not a Vegan and my discussion has nothing to do vegan. Also, there are plenty of garbage supplements disguised as Vegan-friendly.

As for the articles, I supplied you with some quick reads on the matter within a web search to provide you with a starting point, and do not feel the need to go back into notes and re-cite all the medical articles from UCLA, MayoCinic, and Cleveland Clinic that I've read throughout my 8 years studying sports nutrition and actually using and trying various supplements. I am summarizing knowledge and research I've been exposed to for your own use. I also am someone who experienced the side effects of supplements first hand and ended up with a compromised immune system response due to an increased Ferretin absorption, fungal overgrowth from Isolate Protein, and my body wasn't absorbing vitamins properly as a result of dependance on supplements and lead to deficiencies. I had to rebuild my immune system with real food and educating myself.

But if you are just reading this only for arguments' sake, realize that, while I welcome subjective argument and open discussion, I don't have some secret agenda that I'm trying to push. I am simply providing my stand point on something that many of us fighters, athletes, and hobbyists consume easily without considering the very real side effects. Love it or leave it.

I leave you with a nice quote from a much respected fighter who valued his health beyond the supplement industry in discussion:

"The mind is like a parachute, it doesn't work unless it's open"

Wish you the best in health, Bekim. And to the writer of this thread, hope my feedback helps give you a clearer image of the flip side of the coin.

Zeid
 
Bekim,

If you want to refute the fact that the cardiac muscle can grow and decrease in size depending on your nutrition / supplementation please go ahead. If you don't want to heed any warnings and gamble your health go right ahead. I'm just supplying a second opinion on the matter and hopefully let readers of this make a more serious decision about their health when they decide to consume their "Mocha Choca Minted Isolate Whey Protein".

For your Vegan comment, I'm not a Vegan and my discussion has nothing to do vegan. Also, there are plenty of garbage supplements disguised as Vegan-friendly.

As for the articles, I supplied you with some quick reads on the matter within a web search to provide you with a starting point, and do not feel the need to go back into notes and re-cite all the medical articles from UCLA, MayoCinic, and Cleveland Clinic that I've read throughout my 8 years studying sports nutrition and actually using and trying various supplements. I am summarizing knowledge and research I've been exposed to for your own use. I also am someone who experienced the side effects of supplements first hand and ended up with a compromised immune system response due to an increased Ferretin absorption, fungal overgrowth from Isolate Protein, and my body wasn't absorbing vitamins properly as a result of dependance on supplements and lead to deficiencies. I had to rebuild my immune system with real food and educating myself.

But if you are just reading this only for arguments' sake, realize that, while I welcome subjective argument and open discussion, I don't have some secret agenda that I'm trying to push. I am simply providing my stand point on something that many of us fighters, athletes, and hobbyists consume easily without considering the very real side effects. Love it or leave it.

I leave you with a nice quote from a much respected fighter who valued his health beyond the supplement industry in discussion:

"The mind is like a parachute, it doesn't work unless it's open"

Wish you the best in health, Bekim. And to the writer of this thread, hope my feedback helps give you a clearer image of the flip side of the coin.

Zeid

Blah blah blah, show me the studies that I have asked for. I don't need an essay......thanks in advance.

Hugs and kisses

Bekim
 
No problem with them

If someone wants to do them, then let them

Obviously if you're a professional, then you are cheating and if you get caught then take the punishment and admit to it.

But if you're a normal person, do it.
You know the side effects
Just do your research

just don't do coke/steroids

I know a ton of people that do it, they go gym regularly and do steroids
I know a ton of people taht do it, then go the clubs and act like they are tough and then get splattered because steroids don't teach you how to throw a punch
 
Steroid work obviously. But will be diminished if diet and training are lacking.
 
As for the articles, I supplied you with some quick reads on the matter within a web search to provide you with a starting point, and do not feel the need to go back into notes and re-cite all the medical articles from UCLA, MayoCinic, and Cleveland Clinic that I've read throughout my 8 years studying sports nutrition and actually using and trying various supplements. I am summarizing knowledge and research I've been exposed to for your own use. I also am someone who experienced the side effects of supplements first hand and ended up with a compromised immune system response due to an increased Ferretin absorption, fungal overgrowth from Isolate Protein, and my body wasn't absorbing vitamins properly as a result of dependance on supplements and lead to deficiencies. I had to rebuild my immune system with real food and educating myself.

In your spare time? Or did you go to school for this? Reason I'm asking is because I am debating going back to school online and was curious about the nutrition science/dietetics field. I know a degree in dietetics is to become a dietician, but I don't really know if there are good jobs about there with a nutrition science type degree. Any insight?
 
In your spare time? Or did you go to school for this? Reason I'm asking is because I am debating going back to school online and was curious about the nutrition science/dietetics field. I know a degree in dietetics is to become a dietician, but I don't really know if there are good jobs about there with a nutrition science type degree. Any insight?
Hey Wellz6,

Yes, actually went to school for it. I believe there definitely is a good future in it but I recommend specializing yourself in things like sports nutrition, diabetes, and/or going the commercial route of branding yourself in a field and creating your own programs / coaching systems. Nutritionists and Dietitians are not all created equal; how you market yourself and prove your track record is usually more important than your studies unless you are going a medical route. These days online can be a greater income source that a physical job. Worth thinking about :)

Hope that helps.
 
Obviously if an MMA fighter is taking steroids, he's ridiculed, called a cheater/juice head/etc and can probably lose most of his credibility.

But what do you think of guys who are using steroids just to get jacked? I'm talking about competitive Bodybuilders and even the jacked guy in your local gym.

99% of the body building/IFBB pros be it Phil Heath/Arnie or physique guys like Jeff Seid are on GEAR.

TS, are you familiar with FFMI (fat free muscle index)?



http://www.naturalphysiques.com/28/fat-free-mass-index-ffmi

So, in an article; it dictated that about 24.6 was the limited whereby, above, clearly on GEAR. Zyzz for instance was a known user and admittedly. He was @ 25 rating. Arnold Mr Olympia 7x was 27. So called fake natty Simone Panda has a rating of 28 (another words, GEAR between breakfast and brunch).

Jeff Seid was somewhere around 24+ so, basically at the or above the user target. In all likelihood, he uses given he rolls with ChestBrah (Zyzz bro) a known GEAR crusher. Kino was below. Quite a few natty lifters were below but who knows? Many cycle and or may use a little.

I know a woman who is in her middle or late 20s on GEAR. Looks like a dude from the neck down and has a receding hairline. Tell tale sign.


The real question is; what do you want? There is no two ways about it? If you want to be a Pro IFBB, you have no choice. You can be a Natty body builder like L Norton but, these guys get TRT a lot of time so, the so called natty title is questionable at best. Diaz bros called out GEAR in MMA but, I bet its in pro sports. A known drug dealer wrote a book on supplying many athletes and actors/actresses.

Do you think Dwayne Johnson is natty? How about Zac Efron? What about Hugh Jackman? Taylor Lautner when he stacked on "30lbs of muscle?" Kid likely went ham lifting but in all likelihood was using with 24/7 doctors/nutritionists/dieticians etc. For millions, people will do anything.


Lastly, Jeff Seid has better aesthetics at 15/16 then most dudes on GEAR fully grown men. Seid blows Zyzz out of the water but, he is a pro, likely on GEAR, and there is little to combat that with.

hqdefault.jpg


The last one is a tell tale give away lol
What do you want? The fallout is not pretty. Anybody heard about how Ronnie "Light weight baby" Coleman is doing now?

The sad and unfortunate aspect to the conclusion of Ronnie Coleman’s career is not that he is a mere shadow of his former self, will never again display super human strength or the fact that he will once again be a mere mortal (if that was even ever the case), but that at the age of 50 will endure a decreased quality of life as a result of the repercussions of his injuries and surgeries required to alleviate them. He will experience restricted physical function, discomfort and the possibility of chronic pain for the rest of his life.
https://www.ironmanmag.com.au/profiles/profiles/870-ronnie-colemans-injuries-nwas-it-all-worth-it

The fallout is not pretty.



Forever mrrin!

WAR ZYZZ
 
Yeah, people on the internet will believe all sorts of crap, with no scientific evidence to back it......<45>

People even make money out of these people, keep them in the dark and feed them lots of crap.

These online "guru's" should call themselves mushroom farmers........

Making money under false pretence..............bro science, is alive and well on YouTube.
 
Steroid work obviously. But will be diminished if diet and training are lacking.
Agree with this and this is part of the problem.

Most of these "normal gym goer's" that are on steroids don't know much about diet, training, or even how to do a proper steroid cycle.

It's very hard to do steroids right if your not a pro athlete surrounded by professional staff.

Just some random gym scrub doing a steroid cycle isn't going to end well.

I have known a few guys on steroids at the gym I work full time at. I always laugh when I out squat and out deadlift them even though I weight 80lbs less then them....... (thats the problem, alot of these regular joe's on juice haven't even reached half of there natural potential).
 
^ I would say that 20% of the guys on gear at my gym seem to focus on strength, if that. Most are doing it for aesthetic reasons, working on pump and all that stuff. Different goals and all that. Maybe they could out squat you on a 50 squats set or so, if you only train strength with <7 reps sets.

Alas, when on gear I'm not sure your training program is that important. To quote someone very knowledgeable on the topic, "when you're on stuff your training is more or less bullet proof". Of course, if we're talking about elite levels, then training becomes a differentiator.

The diet and knowing how to stack is more important imo. I see bros with zits all over their backs or puffed faces like they're going to explode, they are jacked but I'm guessing they are doing something wrong and might suffer some side effects.
 
^ I would say that 20% of the guys on gear at my gym seem to focus on strength, if that. Most are doing it for aesthetic reasons, working on pump and all that stuff. Different goals and all that. Maybe they could out squat you on a 50 squats set or so, if you only train strength with <7 reps sets.

Alas, when on gear I'm not sure your training program is that important. To quote someone very knowledgeable on the topic, "when you're on stuff your training is more or less bullet proof". Of course, if we're talking about elite levels, then training becomes a differentiator.

The diet and knowing how to stack is more important imo. I see bros with zits all over their backs or puffed faces like they're going to explode, they are jacked but I'm guessing they are doing something wrong and might suffer some side effects.

Look at Jeff Seid. Even someone on GEAR wont have his aesthetics, the striations, the definition, and proportions. No doubt, he uses GEAR between breakfast and Brunch.

Also got to love his flawed logic. Sick cunt still no doubt.
 
I say go for it if it makes you feel better, as long as you are aware of the risk. Athletes and civilians alike.
 
Hey Bekim,

Sure thing, below is a link that covers "Cardiac Hypertrophy" and how athletes have recurrently faced this problem due to their hypertrophy based training and supplementation, and others on research of creatine and protein on heart muscle:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768197/
http://www.everydayhealth.com/colum...pplementation-with-creatine-do-to-your-heart/
http://nutritionstudies.org/no-whey-man-ill-pass-on-protein-powder/

Hope they clear things up for you. Natural, Whole foods is always the best option. Nobody is too busy for their own health.

As for Pea Protein, I do not have much research into this and cannot definitively comment, but I'll repeat: Supplements are designed to sell and not to help. If they help, great, but the goal is to sell.

To explain, when protein powders are formulated, they boast their "fast absorbing" properties as though that is a good thing. Our muscles (aesthetic muscles) surely benefit by growing and rebuilding faster with fast absorbing proteins, but our bodies internally were not designed for this. The heart and lungs do not want fast absorbing proteins, as they also recruit available protein to grow and rebuild. Natural foods are not quick absorbing because our digestive system was not designed to absorb it like that.

Think about that.

Zeid

First study is talking about steroids and heart hypertrophy - no argument there. Steroids can cause this.

The second is a website article opinion-piece quoting some rat studies on creatine supplementation. None of these studies set out to show if creatine harms the heart or causes hypertrophy and therefore cannot show this. Any opinions drawn from studies designed to show something else should be treated with extreme caution since they are prone to p-hacking amongst other problems. At the very least the author should use studies that were designed to show what he's claiming and of course they're rat studies with the rats given large amounts under special circumstances and could very well not be even slightly relevant to normal human use. The article author even says "The authors did not report that the creatine thickened or stiffened the heart. "

The 3rd is website opinion piece by a vegan proponent who's only credentials are some flakey vegan nutrition course, who unsurprisingly isn't a fan of milk-based products.

None of these show that taking whey protein (or even creatine) is bad for the heart. Furthermore, there are studies indicating such supplementaion is good for heart health: https://www.reading.ac.uk/news-and-events/releases/PR703956.aspx
 
Take nothing,never have,if I did,it would be proper gear,as supplements just seem like snake oil to me.
 
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