Stretch shortening cycle

georgegreece

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Do you use it? The principle is this:

Here a boxer is using it:
mQJ5gn.gif


Update:
After all this has a proper name to it, it's called SSC. Source: https://www.scienceforsport.com/stretch-shortening-cycle/
" The stretch-shortening cycle (SSC) refers to the ‘pre-stretch’ or ‘countermovement’ action that is commonly observed during typical human movements such as jumping. This pre-stretch allows the athlete to produce more force and move quicker.

An abundance of research has demonstrated that stronger athletes have a better ability to store elastic energy over weaker individuals (31, 32, 33). Elite athletes from both power- and endurance-based sports have also been demonstrated to possess a superior ability to store elastic energy (31, 32). Furthermore, efficient utilisation of the SSC during sprinting has shown to recover approximately 60% of total mechanical energy, suggesting the other 40% is recovered by metabolic processes (34, 35). "

I don't think it makes a more powerful punch but it does make punches quicker, I use it by imitating the movement of throwing a baseball to every punch, just don't over extend your elbow.

A leaping lead hook does use some elastic recoil even when it's "textbook" and the gazelle punch but they use way more muscles not just the hands.

The graph kind of makes a point concerning the synchronization of the movement.
Figure-3-Tendon-Force-Deformation-Curve-Toe-Region-Science-for-Sport.png



This could help explain how Mexicans have developed their boxing style.
 
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is that the same as "snapping" a jab or cross? basically trying to hit the target as fast as you can and bring your hand back to position quickly? i think i've seen a few videos saying to do that for straight punches. maybe it was one of john hackleman's youtube videos...
 
It's something like snapping but it involves more of a rotation I think, like throwing a ball. For the straight punches I feel it more in the shoulder and bicep, for the leaping lead hook in the calves , lat and lead pec so it depends on the punch.

This video tries to explain it:

But my hand doesn't snap back like this if I don't want to, I can push with this punch by contracting my fist the moment it hits, it compresses the muscles in the hand when you do that. Having said that I feel it's less powerful than pushing the punch because it has a very short range where you can land the punch but it does save you a lot of energy.


Here he explains how to use the shoulder like I said:


@ 3:30 he explains how to drill for this but what I do is make larger circles with my hands at the maximum range my shoulders can rotate freely.

Pendulum steps use the elastic recoil of the calves to work properly but I find it hard to synchronize both movements, there is a very limited window that maximum power is achieved for any muscle.
Especially when double jabbing with pendulum steps you can feel what I'm saying in the calves.
 
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I am not trying to be a dick but I dont see what the hell you are talking about or how that video you posted relates to punching? The most powerful part of your punch is at the very end of it, when you get full extension. Generally speaking most people tend to crowd their punches, usually by leaning in, wanting to lean into it to generate power, however this actually does the opposite, rather than leaning in, they need to pivot/rotate more. Generating a fast powerful punch boils down to using correct technique or not. The correct technique is not rocket science and theres plenty of info out there explaining it, its just a matter of actually doing it that is difficult.

I feel that your breakdown is overly complicated and makes no sense.

I think that they are not powerful because the elastic recoil is not synchronized with the maximum force output of the muscle travel
 
No actually it's not if tendons have a spring constant that is let's say constant (it's not) then the force applied is linearly proportional to the travel of each muscle group that the tendon is in, the more expanded the tendon is the more power it can generate and this must be synchronized with the optimum position of the muscle fibers, now if you try to use more than one muscle like this you must synchronize all of these together ofcourse you can't think all of this actively , you can let your subconscious do it for you though. I think of it like using one move inside the other(throwing a ball and punching) and exploding more at the moment the punch touches the target.
 
No actually it's not if tendons have a spring constant that is let's say constant (it's not) then the force applied is linearly proportional to the travel of each muscle group that the tendon is in, the more expanded the tendon is the more power it can generate and this must be synchronized with the optimum position of the muscle fibers, now if you try to use more than one muscle like this you must synchronize all of these together ofcourse you can't think all of this actively , you can let your subconscious do it for you though. I think of it like using one move inside the other(throwing a ball and punching) and exploding more at the moment the punch touches the target.

you dont synchronize your tendons and muscles while throwing a punch, maybe the body does it naturally, like brathing or blinking or your heart beating, but to throw a correct punch you dont think ok synchronize my tendons and muscles. You use your hips, pivot the foot, rotation, etc. etc.

Also you say an extended muscle is a weak muscle, and that may very well be true, but the most powerful part of the punch is when it is fully extended, which would mean your muscle is fully extended as well. So all this overly complicated stuff your talking about does not make much sense and contradicts istelf. It is like suggesting how many times you should blink during a fight.

the reason I am pointing this out is not to be a jerk to you, but if your going to give advice it needs to be correct information. A beginner is going to read your post and wonder down some strange rabbit hole you are promoting.
 
you dont synchronize your tendons and muscles while throwing a punch, maybe the body does it naturally, like brathing or blinking or your heart beating, but to throw a correct punch you dont think ok synchronize my tendons and muscles. You use your hips, pivot the foot, rotation, etc. etc.

Also you say an extended muscle is a weak muscle, and that may very well be true, but the most powerful part of the punch is when it is fully extended, which would mean your muscle is fully extended as well. So all this overly complicated stuff your talking about does not make much sense and contradicts istelf. It is like suggesting how many times you should blink during a fight.

the reason I am pointing this out is not to be a jerk to you, but if your going to give advice it needs to be correct information. A beginner is going to read your post and wonder down some strange rabbit hole you are promoting.

When the punch hits you should have aligned your structure so that muscles don't do any work at all. Youtubers call this bone stacking or something.
 
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ok so i have never heard of this stuff before and did a youtube search after you said that. when you punch your using your muscles and tendons regardless. the bone stacking that hes talking about for the shovel hook to the body or for the cross sound like BS to me, i still see body mechanics as far as pivoting, muscles and tendons being used. You cant "bone stack" and not use your muscles and tendons on a punch or you will injure yourself, you throw the cross with a straight arm but not a locked arm. it all sounds like a bunch of over complicated BS internet hype to me. and I would say that just because shane fazen did a video on it doesnt really add any merit to it. I would view this as one of his clickbait videos. I understand the thought and science behind all this but i view it as over complicated BS. Just use proper technique and you will be fine without concerning yourself with elastic bone stacking recoil. hes basically saying you bone stack with a straight punch vs elastic recoil with a hook. so any straight technique such as a jab, side kick or teep, would be bone stacking too. I am not going to remember to bone stack the next time i throw a teep. i will just throw a teep with correct technique.

 
ok so i have never heard of this stuff before and did a youtube search after you said that. when you punch your using your muscles and tendons regardless. the bone stacking that hes talking about for the shovel hook to the body or for the cross sound like BS to me, i still see body mechanics as far as pivoting, muscles and tendons being used. You cant "bone stack" and not use your muscles and tendons on a punch or you will injure yourself, you throw the cross with a straight arm but not a locked arm. it all sounds like a bunch of over complicated BS internet hype to me. and I would say that just because shane fazen did a video on it doesnt really add any merit to it. I would view this as one of his clickbait videos. I understand the thought and science behind all this but i view it as over complicated BS. Just use proper technique and you will be fine without concerning yourself with elastic bone stacking recoil. hes basically saying you bone stack with a straight punch vs elastic recoil with a hook. so any straight technique such as a jab, side kick or teep, would be bone stacking too. I am not going to remember to bone stack the next time i throw a teep. i will just throw a teep with correct technique.


This video explain it a little:

You move everything like when throwing a punch but you delay the movement of each part of your body so that there's a whipping motion throughout your body, you do that even when you use the energy from landing your feet, you feel the power (stretching of tendons) going through your feet to your legs to your pelvis to your torso to the shoulder to bicep and then to the hand.
Oh yes you gotta do it fast enough so you won't telegraph your movements.

So who uses it here?
 
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This video explain it a little:

You move everything like when throwing a punch but you delay the movement of each part of your body so that there's a whipping motion throughout your body, you do that even when you use the energy from landing your feet, you feel the power (stretching of tendons) going through your feet to your legs to your pelvis to your torso to the shoulder to bicep and then to the hand.
Oh yes you gotta do it fast enough so you won't telegraph your movements.

So who uses it here?


so its a over complicated way of explaining how to use proper technique, all this is basically saying is to throw your punches relaxed rather than tense, which is proper technique. I view it as over complicating it however wit JT VANS breakdown, I could see how it could be viewed of a thorough breakdown of how to use technique. I view it as over complicated but I can see how some people may need it explained to them this way to grasp the concept.
 

This guy is using what I'm talking about.
Here
mQJ5gn.gif


He bends the arm milliseconds before hitting the target in order to hit with structure and not muscles i.e. his forearm is aligned with the direction of the punch and the shoulder is internally rotated as to cause maximum isometric contraction of the pec e.t.c.

I wanted to talk about using it vs not using it .


All without sacrificing speed, making openings or telegraphing your movements.
 
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This guy is using what I'm talking about.
Here
mQJ5gn.gif


He bends the arm milliseconds before hitting the target in order to hit with structure and not muscles i.e. his forearm is aligned with the direction of the punch and the shoulder is internally rotated as to cause maximum isometric contraction of the pec e.t.c.

I wanted to talk about using it vs not using it .


All without sacrificing speed, making openings or telegraphing your movements.


the hook was slappy, which is "technically" wrong, you can use slap hooks though.

His cross, regarding the shoulder rotation and everything else you speak of, is correct technique of throwing a cross, I dont really see what there is to talk about though.

Im up for discussing it though, so lets discuss, whats up?
 
the hook was slappy, which is "technically" wrong, you can use slap hooks though.

His cross, regarding the shoulder rotation and everything else you speak of, is correct technique of throwing a cross, I dont really see what there is to talk about though.

Im up for discussing it though, so lets discuss, whats up?

What on earth is a slap hook and how do punches become slappy? <{nope}>
 
Legit, the only people on this forum that I really trust when it comes to talking about biomechanics are Sinister and Sano. Everyone else I take with a large grain of salt.
 
elastic recoil: The inherent resistance of a tissue to changes in shape, and the tendency of tissue to revert to its original shape once deformed.

You lead with your torso/hip twist and your pec will stretch, then recoil into its original shape (regarding the Wilder hook) Much like an elastic band when stretched.

Thats really it. Just your muscles pulling themselves back into place essentially

Edit: i would also think a proper kinetic chain from foot to fist would result in quicker punches than using elastic recoil
 
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Yeah you just can't use what I'm talking about, sorry.
Alright I'll chime in here because this annoys me.

Your understanding of both physiology, biomechanics and boxing technique is way off and you are using terms and phrases wrong. The video in the OP also seems like something translated from russian with google translate or something as it's all over the place. First of all, tendons do not "grow larger" acutely during dynamic, isometric nor ballistic (plyometric) exercise in the way it's proposed. They elongate, and yes they elongate during normal dynamic training as well. During ballistic training, what they describe as running, walking or hopping, the muscles do not isometrically contract, rather they contract dynamically as well. While there is elements of isometric contraction obviously during any concentric-isometric-eccentric phase, it's wrong terminology to use here.

The "elastic recoil" effect you are talking about is the stretch shortening cycle, or myotatic reflex, which in reality means that when tendons are elongated at high speeds energy is build which is released during the concentric muscle action. This has to happen at high velocities, generally around < 200 milliseconds for it to be true plyometrics using the full energy buildup from the stretch reflex, otherwise the energy dissipates.

The "is not synchronized with maximum force output of muscles" is also nonsense and it's highly depending on action and angle. Your point about the maximum amount of crossbridges being avaliable at mid range (meaning when a muscle is roughly in the middle of it's range of motion) is useless in a vacuum and simplified, because it doesn't take into account the biomechanical factors that is used to create power nor the passive force increase during muscle and tendon elongation.

Lastly, yes that is a slapping hook. It has no structure behind it, which is most of the time not how you would be taught a textbook hook. It takes advantage of the stretch reflex, but it doesn't take advantage of proper biomechanics and positioning. If you don't know what a slappy hook is then you don't even have a beginners understanding of boxing, and you definitely don't know anything about biomechanics nor physiology so stop pretending like you do.

Slapping hook:
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UnselfishDisastrousAngora.gif


Not a slapping hook:
8DsjA6P.gif


Obviously, range matters and different weapons have different uses. There is a lot of different ways to generate power as well which works better for some and less for others. Basics are still basics though.
 
elastic recoil: The inherent resistance of a tissue to changes in shape, and the tendency of tissue to revert to its original shape once deformed.

You lead with your torso/hip twist and your pec will stretch, then recoil into its original shape (regarding the Wilder hook) Much like an elastic band when stretched.

Thats really it. Just your muscles pulling themselves back into place essentially

Edit: i would also think a proper kinetic chain from foot to fist would result in quicker punches than using elastic recoil
You always use "elastic recoil" to some extent, even when being tight. It's part of the process. Lower body and upper body.
 
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