SURPRISE! Guess Who Trump Wants Back in the G-7...[It Starts with R and ends with USSIA]

It's a significant distinction. It's not a different means of control. It's theft of land at an international level.

Russia did not annex the Ukraine, the entire country.

They are not being punished for exercising undue influence over the Ukrainian government's decision making.

They are being punished for looking at the Ukraine's borders and saying "We're redrawing the map and your borders no longer exist." So, the natural resources that used to belong to you...now belong to us. The roads that used to belong to you, belong to us. The people who used to call themselves Ukranian are no longer Ukranian. It's wholesale theft at a massive level.

Then its not stealing land in so long as you invade and throw in a puppet government afterwards?
 
Then its not stealing land in so long as you throw in a puppet government?

Is it a puppet government comprised of people who belong to that country? Then no it's not stealing land. It might be undermining autonomy but it's not stealing land.
 
Is it a puppet government comprised of people who belong to that country? Then no it's not stealing land. It might be undermining autonomy but it's not stealing land.

Your last statement is contradictory, no? Possession is dependent on control, and control is dependent on autonomy. So if we're controlling (taking over the autonomy of the countries we've invaded), then how have we not taken over possession and therefore stolen?
 
First, I am saying that your post (#45 itt) was stupid.

In response to the rest of your questions:

Maybe, just maybe, if Russia wants to be back in the G-8 they could... oh, I don't know... give back that part of the Ukraine they stole for which they were kicked out of the G-8.

Crazy talk, I know.

It would also be great if they stopped blatantly meddling with our elections before we started arguing in their interests.

Or maybe, getting them into talks at the G-8 is, you know, a way to do that? Crazy talk, I know.
 
Your last statement is contradictory, no? Possession is dependent on control, and control is dependent on autonomy. So if we're controlling (taking over the autonomy of the countries we've invaded), then how have we not taken over possession and therefore stolen?

Because we don't possess or control. And possibly undermining autonomy is not the same as removing it or replacing it. Emphasis on "possibly" because so long as the "puppet government" has the freedom to buck our suggestions, they are not within our control.
 
Or maybe, getting them into talks at the G-8 is, you know, a way to do that? Crazy talk, I know.
Bobby, you stole your sister's toy, go to time out!...

Oh, on second thought, never mind... Let's just forget about it. Do you want a cookie, Bobby? You're a good boy.

Two minutes later: Hey, Bobby why haven't you given back your sister's toy?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/14/middleeast/iraq-elections-results-intl/index.html
 
Bobby, you stole your sister's toy, go to time out!...

Oh, on second thought, never mind... Let's just forget about it. Do you want a cookie, Bobby? You're a good boy.

Two minutes later: Hey, Bobby why haven't you given back your sister's toy?

There is something wrong with your brain.
 
Law and order. Except for Putin. He totally gets to annex parts of other countries and meddle in our elections with impunity.

If we look at the actions, instead of just words, Trump has arguably been clearly more damaging to Russia than Obama.
1. Trump approved arms deliveries to Ukraine, something Obama adamantly refused to do.
2. Under Trump's presidency the sanctions have gotten much tighter.
3. Trump has allowed oil drillings on ecologically sensitive areas, which has increased the US oil producing potential and thus weakened Russia's position on energy markets.
4. Trump has publicly denounced the New START treaty and rebuked Putin's offer to continue it after 2021.
5. Trump substantially increased the US defense budget and wanted to massively bolster the US nuclear arsenal. Indeed he directly stated that he wants an arms race and Russia is the only country with a nuclear parity with the US currently.
6. Trump broke the Iran deal, which Russia helped to achieve. In fact Obama thanked Putin publicly for it and Putin has continued to call for the US to respect the treaty. An US attack on Iran would likely be pretty awful for Russia, despite giving a spike to oil prices, as Iran plays a crucial role in enabling Russian presence and operations in Syria. (Russia tranfers its combat aircraft to and from Syria for example through Iranian airspace, and there are no realistic alternatives)
7. Trump twice attacked Russian ally Syria and continues to occupy Syrian territory.

All these things doesn't prove that there wasn't anything funny going on between Trump and the Russians, but it would probably be healthy to be cognizant of this side of the story too.

Just to make an obvious point about punishing countries.
The world (or any elements in the US internally) didn't sanction Bush for committing far greater and more destructive crime in attacking Iraq than anything done by Putin. Nor did it punish Obama for destroying Libya and criminally supporting illegal armed groups in Syria, flaming the awful situation into even greater bloodshed.
Sanctioning Russia has nothing to do with upholding the law or punishing bad behavior. It has to do with weakening a competitor. We know this for fact, because the same behavior gets totally different reactions depending on the actor. Just compare how the US treats Saudi Arabia and Russia. The US actually actively supports the destructive Saudi attack on Yemen. And this isn't any new development either. In fact Russia itself has been consistently sanctioned since the times of Russian Empire. Good example is of course Saddam Hussein. The US supported him through the worst crimes (massively destructive aggression against Iran and chemical attacks against the Kurds, the US actually publicly blamed Iran for the chemical attack, despite knowing that it was Saddam (no great mystery why the Iranians don't like America very much)), and only turned against him after he crossed the US itself by attacking a US ally.
 
They are being punished for looking at the Ukraine's borders and saying "We're redrawing the map and your borders no longer exist." So, the natural resources that used to belong to you...now belong to us. The roads that used to belong to you, belong to us. The people who used to call themselves Ukranian are no longer Ukranian. It's wholesale theft at a massive level.

Russia did get only light sanctions, because of Crimea. Mainly targeting individual persons. The more serious sanctions came for the Russian involvement in the Donbass war. And it is consistently repeated at least in Europe, that if Russia implements the Minsk II, then the sanctions go. The Minsk agreements have exactly zero to do with Crimea, they focus solely on the Donbass situation. Also the US sanctions for the election meddling are far more serious than the ones for Crimea. Crimea isn't such a big deal for the West as you make it out to be. Indeed it is hard to argue that it was any way more serious crime than Iraq, Libya or various parties' actions in Syria. All the western run polls show that vast majority of Crimeans prefer Russia to Ukraine, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, as Russia is both much richer than Ukraine and Crimeans are ethnically majority Russians. And historically Crimea had nothing to do with Ukraine until 1954, and even then being part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic didn't mean very much, as the power center was still Moscow.
 
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I acknowledge their economic standing. That isn't the reason they were kicked out though. They got kicked out over Crimea. So with that said, what leg does the US have to stand on with their history? Who are they to call anyone out, and vote countries out of the group based on questionable military actions?

Well, for one thing I am pretty sure the last time The United States Government annexed lands through military invasion was World War 2. Say what you will about American military history over the last 50 years, I am certainly not going to defend it, but there is a distinct difference between annexation and invasion.
 
France an Canada want to create a G6 for economic trade talks without the US.
 
You're downplaying what the US has done over the years.

Are you seriously suggesting that what Russia did to Crimea is worse than anything the US has ever done in the last 25 years, or so?
If the US is so bad then why do you worship its fat orange leader?
 
Russia did get only light sanctions, because of Crimea. Mainly targeting individual persons. The more serious sanctions came for the Russian involvement in the Donbass war. And it is consistently repeated at least in Europe, that if Russia implements the Minsk II, then the sanctions go. The Minsk agreements have exactly zero to do with Crimea, they focus solely on the Donbass situation. Also the US sanctions for the election meddling are far more serious than the ones for Crimea. Crimea isn't such a big deal for the West as you make it out to be. Indeed it is hard to argue that it was any way more serious crime than Iraq, Libya or various parties' actions in Syria. All the western run polls show that vast majority of Crimeans prefer Russia to Ukraine, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, as Russia is both much richer than Ukraine and Crimeans are ethnically majority Russians. And historically Crimea had nothing to do with Ukraine until 1954, and even then being part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic didn't mean very much, as the power center was still Moscow.
Good points, all.

You should post more.
 
Lol your tin foil hat is too tight

russia isnt a g7 level country. theres no reason for them to be in it over about 10 other up and coming countries. russia fell, and has never really come back. so either trump is trolling, or hes bought with moves like this.
 
Exactly lol. I'm all about RealPolitik and American power, don't get me wrong, but it's absolutely crazy that no one talks about how we are held to no standard. It's great for America, but Russia did a super mild invasion of part of the Ukraine. America invades the shit out of several countries, completely overtaking their sovereignty as well as going on a world bombing tour on a daily basis and no one says boo.

America absolutely runs the world.

so we should let russia join us?
 
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