International Syria Conflict: Bombs away boys. (Israel openly admits to bombing Iranian bases in Syria)

[whougonnacall]

Throne isnt illegitimate, its still the internationally recognized government of Syria.

Maybe the US shouldnt had blown its wad to oust Assad early on so that there would be things to actually negotiate with him, but since the US already did all it could to topple Assad without a serious alternative to his government his leverage outside of bombing is zero.

But then again you are the guy who called ISIS the lesser of two evils.

Legitimised only by force of arms

They havent done all they could to oust him (hed be gone if they chose to)
we have literaly just seen them toss aside a pretext and left him alone! In many times have been critical to his survival despite the half ased support for his enemies

Rod il could take that as your utter surrender of trying to present a case if you have to rely on an outright lie...?............ or il chalk it up to bad memory
Never said isis were the lesser evil or assad.....equaly evil!

 

[Rod1]

Legitimised only by force of arms

And international law.

They havent done all they could to oust him (hed be gone if they chose to)

Without military intervention, yes the US did all it could to oust him.

we have literaly just seen them toss aside a pretext and left him alone! In many times have been critical to his survival despite the half ased support for his enemies

You want the US to get embroiled in armed conflict to oust Assad, that was not going to happen during Obama and its not going to happen with Russia there.

Rod il could take that as your utter surrender of trying to present a case if you have to rely on an outright lie...?............ or il chalk it up to bad memory
Never said isis were the lesser evil or assad.....equaly evil!

My case its already present, the Syrian government is still represented by Assad and there is no better alternative to back up.

Your idea of a solution is to oust Assad and let Syrians come up with something after decades of war.

And you cheered for ISIS along with all the neocons until ISIS went cartoon evil, then you said "But Assad..." as if anybody would lay down their arms to jihadists.

 

[Madmick]

And international law.



Without military intervention, yes the US did all it could to oust him.



You want the US to get embroiled in armed conflict to oust Assad, that was not going to happen during Obama and its not going to happen with Russia there.



My case its already present, the Syrian government is still represented by Assad and there is no better alternative to back up.

Your idea of a solution is to oust Assad and let Syrians come up with something after decades of war.

And you cheered for ISIS along with all the neocons until ISIS went cartoon evil, then you said "But Assad..." as if anybody would lay down their arms to jihadists.

Not even fucking close.

 

[VivaRevolution]

One, you say, @VivaRevolution. Just one, my boy? Okay, let's bring a key footnote this time, one with a face on it, to add to the four different sources I've already cited (each which is itself citing multiple instances of debunked social media and photos indicating a "staged" attack):
Assad claims iconic photo of bloodied Syrian boy is fake

Yeah. This is the guy you're in bed with. This is the narrative Russia is slinging.

This poor kid was just one more "staged" Western puppet.

Yeah, our government lied us into a war in Iraq. That is the people you are in bed with.

Get it?

The point isn't that Assad or the Russians are the good guys, the point is that there is plenty of evidence against the white hats that hasn't been debunked.

Maybe you honestly think I am an idiot and don't approach these topics with critical thinking, but you are wrong.

Both sides are completely full of shit.

Of course I'm not the one supporting bombing based on believing one sides BS.

 

[whougonnacall]

And international law.



Without military intervention, yes the US did all it could to oust him.



You want the US to get embroiled in armed conflict to oust Assad, that was not going to happen during Obama and its not going to happen with Russia there.



My case its already present, the Syrian government is still represented by Assad and there is no better alternative to back up.
Your idea of a solution is to oust Assad and let Syrians come up with something after decades of war.

And you cheered for ISIS along with all the neocons until ISIS went cartoon evil, then you said "But Assad..." as if anybody would lay down their arms to jihadists.

Lol are we really citing int law in syria where war crimes are now the norm?

No it didnt we actualy turned off rebel arms suplies at times and kept them stingy when we were suppling the very few we chose to (Literaly bullet rationing), blocked stingers as best we could, and forced them to obey the peace deals desined to allow assads outnumbered militas to fight the rebels peicemeal

It could easily still occur my friemd amd russia has no awnser to our vastly superior tech and the sheer imbalance in power projection in the m.e

Funny there was no alternative to hitler and germany seemed to get along fine , many rebel enclaves has working democratic cou cils ie local democracy runnibg things just fine despite daily bombardements and some in siege conditions so yeah theres loads of alternatives to a hated tyrant whos presence wil just allow isis 2.0 to fester somewhere

Never cheered for isis as you well know rod they ae as evil as assad
i openly supported arming the rebels to the teeth and backing them with air support as far back when they almost extinguished isis for good

 

[whougonnacall]

Yeah, our government lied us into a war in Iraq. That is the people you are in bed with.

Get it?

As opposed to the utterly tustworthy russian goverment yeah?
Wouldnt that make you in bed with them? And the likes of assad and hezbollah and iran?

 

[Rod1]

Not even fucking close.

What else could the US do to oust Assad? sanctions, refusing to recognize the country and funneling arms and resources to jihadist groups through the GCC countries.

The US did all it could without the use of arms to oust Assad, it destroyed all possible leverage besides threatening military force which was thrown out of the window when Russia moved its forces in.

 

[Rod1]

Lol are we really citing int law in syria where war crimes are now the norm?

Yes, and its not Syria, its the entire middle east.

No it didnt we actualy turned off rebel arms suplies at times and kept them stingy when we were suppling the very few we chose to (Literaly bullet rationing), blocked stingers as best we could, and forced them to obey the peace deals desined to allow assads outnumbered militas to fight the rebels peicemeal

You are talking about the rebels that the US could openly support, ignoring the rebels who the US tacitly supported through the GCC.

It could easily still occur my friemd amd russia has no awnser to our vastly superior tech and the sheer imbalance in power projection in the m.e

The US wont poke Russian ego, even if its a 1% chance of things escalating to a general confrontation, the US wont escalate to a point where it will target Russian troops.

Funny there was no alternative to hitler and germany seemed to get along fine , many rebel enclaves has working democratic cou cils ie local democracy runnibg things just fine despite daily bombardements and some in siege conditions so yeah theres loads of alternatives to a hated tyrant whos presence wil just allow isis 2.0 to fester somewhere

There was an alternative to Hitler, it was called the Flensburg government and they wanted unconditional surrender to the west in order to stop soviet advance.

Tons of suffering would had been prevented if Eisenhower had accepted the Flensburg terms of surrender.

Never cheered for isis as you well know rod they ae as evil as assad
i openly supported arming the rebels to the teeth and backing them with air support as far back when they almost extinguished isis for good

Sure, after it was clear that the ISIS pitbull was not helping your oust Assad agenda, when they were attacking government or iranian forces you became a cheerleader.

 

[VivaRevolution]

As opposed to the utterly tustworthy russian goverment yeah?
Wouldnt that make you in bed with them? And the likes of assad and hezbollah and iran?

I don't believe anyone's bull shit. Some bull shit I find more credible then other BS.

I don't want to pick any sides in any conflict because I know it is all BS.

I promise you if Iran, or Russia or anyone else attacks US territory I will sing a different tune.

 

[Madmick]

What else could the US do to oust Assad? sanctions, refusing to recognize the country and funneling arms and resources to jihadist groups through the GCC countries.

The US did all it could without the use of arms to oust Assad, it destroyed all possible leverage besides threatening military force which was thrown out of the window when Russia moved its forces in.

Spend more money. You have such a limited imagination if you believe we've exhausted every possibility or trick at our disposal. We are an empire. Our concerns are not this narrow.

Nevertheless, I'm dealing with a highly concrete and important slurry of propaganda, right now, and am not at all interested in a zero-stakes derail of mental masturbation postulating pointless, ignorant hypothetical nonsense. If we wanted him out, he'd be out, so the fact he isn't accounts for other strategies and considerations. Speculation beyond that is meaningless fiction.

 

[whougonnacall]

I don't believe anyone's bull shit. Some bull shit I find more credible then other BS.

I don't want to pick any sides in any conflict because I know it is all BS.

I promise you if Iran, or Russia or anyone else attacks US territory I will sing a different tune.

Well you dont see enormous holds of credibility in the russian story? The fact they keep altering it alone and their obstruction to the opcws mission etc

 

[VivaRevolution]

Well you dont see enormous holds of credibility in the russian story? The fact they keep altering it alone and their obstruction to the opcws mission etc

The other sides story is just as full of holes.

Do I believe the Russians? Lol, No! Putin is a KGB spook gangster. He is what would happen if you crossed obama's Chicago gangster friends with Bush Sr's CIA credentials.

I certainly don't believe the Orange Saudi Zionist though either.

 

[whougonnacall]

Yes, and its not Syria, its the entire middle east.



You are talking about the rebels that the US could openly support, ignoring the rebels who the US tacitly supported through the GCC.



The US wont poke Russian ego, even if its a 1% chance of things escalating to a general confrontation, the US wont escalate to a point where it will target Russian troops.



There was an alternative to Hitler, it was called the Flensburg government and they wanted unconditional surrender to the west in order to stop soviet advance.
Tons of suffering would had been prevented if Eisenhower had accepted the Flensburg terms of surrender.



Sure, after it was clear that the ISIS pitbull was not helping your oust Assad agenda, when they were attacking government or iranian forces you became a cheerleader.

So int borders are more important than the people living there? Ok got it

We pretty much put a choke on them supporting as much as they wanted to ..obama officals openly wanted assad poked to co operate not ousted...trump hasnt a clue what he wants

Id counter argue russia has farr more chance of not wanting things to escalate with the u.s or even israel and turkey , nor does the u.s have to target russian troops to dethrone assad either


Rebels have an alternative goverment too remember plus at a local level they have had large areas run by democratic councils
Shit al nursra is the worst of the rebel groups and they at least allow protesting .....not so much in irans new vassal state


Rod iv allowed you to continue on this so now im openly calling you out
Post a single post of mine where iv been an isis 'cheerleader' ...il wait
Iv been as opposed to isis as assad
Plus your argument makes no sense as isis and assad wernt really fighting outside of deir el zour for most of the early conflict, if anything they worked as unspokem allies vs the rebels with vast borders with no fighting for years
Theres even a twitter account '(notaspy i belive is his name) where satelite footage shows when isis pushed rebels out of territory nearby assad forces removed walls and checkpoints !!

 

[whougonnacall]

The other sides story is just as full of holes.

Do I believe the Russians? Lol, No! Putin is a KGB spook gangster. He is what would happen if you crossed obama's Chicago gangster friends with Bush Sr's CIA credentials.

I certainly don't believe the Orange Saudi Zionist though either.

Not even remotely similar

 

[VivaRevolution]

No, I'm citing an example that I already knew existed before I'd even looked it up.

Why? Because we went through this very same thing the last few times. In fact, even the MSM has covered this numerous times in the past several years due to the ongoing Facebook "fake news" saga. This is it. This is the actual fake news. The bonafide thing.

Finally, spare me your nonsense about "one thing". I fucking unloaded on you the past two times we got into this, with a dizzying array of dozens of sources, and dozens of points of sources for each one, and you came back with "Seymour Hersh" (who couldn't substantiate his claims and hid behind "protecting" his anonymous sources as a refusal to do so). You are singularly the most culpable person on this forum of ignoring all contradictory evidence and tunneling on the tiniest splinter of indication reinforcing your pre-existing belief about who did it; a bias I've already gotten you to explicitly concede in this thread.

Lmao!

You are mister appeal to authority. Sorry if when you use bloggers, that I hold you to your own standards.

 

[Rod1]

Spend more money. You have such a limited imagination if you believe we've exhausted every possibility or trick at our disposal. We are an empire. Our concerns are not this narrow.

Your concerns are incredibly narrow and fickle because in the end foreign policy is almost exclusively at the whims and fancy of an elected individual in a country where elections have become incredibly politicized.

As to propaganda, i dont subscribe to it, and to be honest i havent even read whether the chemical attack happened as it was or not, im arguing from the position that it did.

But then again when you have a country that ran with a lie that Iran gassed the Kurds for almost a decade and that Iraq was developing nukes, then yes, a little skepticism goes a long way.

Not that you should take Russian fake news at face value either.

 

[Rod1]

So int borders are more important than the people livinv there? Ok got it

We pretty much put a choke on thm supporting as much as they wanted to ..obama openky wanted assad poked to co operate not ousted...trump hasnt a clue what he wants

Obama wanted cooperation when it was clear that the GCC strategy of bribing military officers and funneling money to jihadists backfired.

Early on in 2011 the US did all it could to ensure Assad was going to go the Gaddafi route.

Id counter argue russia has farr more chance of not wanting things to escalate with the u.s or even israel and turkey , nor does the u.s have to target russian troops to dethrone assad either

Neither wants things to escalate, but Russia knows that it cant simply let the US push it over.

I think it would take something like the US recognizing the annexation of Crimea in order for Putin to throw Assad under the bus.

Rebels have an alternative goverment too remember plus at a local level they have had large areas run by democratic councils
Shit al nursra is the worsr of the rebel groups and they at least allow protesting .....not so much in irans new vassal state

Dellusional.

 

[mcveteran81]

Damn. How will I ever survive weakass ad hominem counterpunches like this?

Oh, yeah, that's right, I'm not a Rusbot who ignorantly presumed that was it...
How Syria's White Helmets became victims of an online propaganda machine
Signature Russian propaganda.

Pfft Damn. How will *I* ever survive weak-ass ad hominem counter punches like this from @Madmick ?

Congratulations let's fight *propaganda* with wait for it..........Western Propaganda!

Ah yes the Guardian signature Western Propaganda. (The Guardian is a British daily newspaper) Because the UK has no skin in the game what so ever now. Yeah whoops.

Let's see what Syrians think about Assad. Oh wait what?

Link Source (Al Jaazera) : https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/bashar-al-assad-power-180414061304833.html

Internal support
Despite widespread opposition to his rule, Assad continues to maintain significant levels of support within Syria.

Such support extends beyond his own Alawite community, and also includes members of the Sunni community who have benefited financially during his rule and have little interest in changing the status quo.

What do Syrians think of Bashar al-Assad?

Link Source (Quora) : https://www.quora.com/What-do-Syrians-think-of-Bashar-al-Assad

As someone who has spent a lot of time in Syria before and during the conflict, I have taken many opportunities to ask this question. Let me begin my response by asking you: What do the people of your country think of your Head of State? Does every single one of you have exactly the same opinion? I am guessing -no. It's the same all over the world, including Syria.

The Western media have given the image of Syria as being a black and white, straight down the middle, for or against, simplistic portrayal of the country, it's leader and it's people.

Here is a brief list of all the different opinions I have come across from Syrians about Assad.

Love the man - Adore him (genuinely)

Regard him as an astute politician.

Had great expectation and hope about him when he first came into power, then he lost the goodwill of the people after he came down heavy at the start of the 'Arab Spring'.

Had negative feelings about him before, but now love the guy because of what he is doing against ISIS

Reluctantly like/respect/tolerate the man because he is the only current answer in the fight against ISIS

Believe Assad is not the problem - it's the politicians behind him. This is usually followed with something on the lines of: We need to change the system, not just the man.

Assad is a politician - and all politicians deserved to be disliked. He is no better or worse than Obama, Clinton, etc.

He is not as bad as his father. He made some changes, but not enough.

He is as bad as his father.

He is worse than his father.

Hate and loathing of the man.

A rebel (who the West are supporting) once told me: We will use the Americans to kill Assad and then we will kill the Americans.

A Syrian soldier (who the West are against) once told me "All politicians - bad. All people - Good."

The real world is not simplistic and Muslims/Syrians are not robots programmed to think one thing. They are as complex in their thoughts and opinions as people from your country.

----------------

Btfo and Gtfo. But, please oh please, follow up with your limp dick appeal to *international community organisations, watch dogs and chemical inspector authorities* Who of course fall in line with western thinking and propaganda.

Lol like the UN, NATO or any other western state / inspectors are going to go against the U.S.

Oh and before I get accused of being a Russian sympathizer. I still *love* my country and support my citizens and fellow Service men and women. I'm just not such a fucking intellectual hack to believe the stupidity of my countries political and propaganda machine.

 

[whougonnacall]

Obama wanted cooperation when it was clear that the GCC strategy of bribing military officers and funneling money to jihadists backfired.
Early on in 2011 the US did all it could to ensure Assad was going to go the Gaddafi route.



Neither wants things to escalate, but Russia knows that it cant simply let the US push it over.
I think it would take something like the US recognizing the annexation of Crimea in order for Putin to throw Assad under the bus.



Dellusional.

No they didnt if theyd did all they could hed be gone ...the early reponse was providing mostly non lethal aid when a huge amout of ammo and srms early and often would have toppled him

Russia has no choice any confontation with the u.s would be short and utterly humiliating for putin , a mw does not pick a fight with a hw if they csn avoid it
Also this stage assad is a thorn for russia who want this expensive excursion wrapped up but hes not easily replaceable for them

Lol so we ignore facts that dont suit us
Il also note you ignore my calling you out over saying i supported isis

 

[whougonnacall]

Pfft Damn. How will *I* ever survive weak-ass ad hominem counter punches like this from @Madmick ?

Congratulations let's fight *propaganda* with wait for it..........Western Propaganda!

Ah yes the Guardian signature Western Propaganda. (The Guardian is a British daily newspaper) Because the UK has no skin in the game what so ever now. Yeah whoops.

Let's see what Syrians think about Assad. Oh wait what?

Link Source (Al Jaazera) : https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/04/bashar-al-assad-power-180414061304833.html

Internal support
Despite widespread opposition to his rule, Assad continues to maintain significant levels of support within Syria.

Such support extends beyond his own Alawite community, and also includes members of the Sunni community who have benefited financially during his rule and have little interest in changing the status quo.

What do Syrians think of Bashar al-Assad?

Link Source (Quora) : https://www.quora.com/What-do-Syrians-think-of-Bashar-al-Assad

As someone who has spent a lot of time in Syria before and during the conflict, I have taken many opportunities to ask this question. Let me begin my response by asking you: What do the people of your country think of your Head of State? Does every single one of you have exactly the same opinion? I am guessing -no. It's the same all over the world, including Syria.

The Western media have given the image of Syria as being a black and white, straight down the middle, for or against, simplistic portrayal of the country, it's leader and it's people.

Here is a brief list of all the different opinions I have come across from Syrians about Assad.

Love the man - Adore him (genuinely)

Regard him as an astute politician.

Had great expectation and hope about him when he first came into power, then he lost the goodwill of the people after he came down heavy at the start of the 'Arab Spring'.

Had negative feelings about him before, but now love the guy because of what he is doing against ISIS

Reluctantly like/respect/tolerate the man because he is the only current answer in the fight against ISIS

Believe Assad is not the problem - it's the politicians behind him. This is usually followed with something on the lines of: We need to change the system, not just the man.

Assad is a politician - and all politicians deserved to be disliked. He is no better or worse than Obama, Clinton, etc.

He is not as bad as his father. He made some changes, but not enough.

He is as bad as his father.

He is worse than his father.

Hate and loathing of the man.

A rebel (who the West are supporting) once told me: We will use the Americans to kill Assad and then we will kill the Americans.

A Syrian soldier (who the West are against) once told me "All politicians - bad. All people - Good."

The real world is not simplistic and Muslims/Syrians are not robots programmed to think one thing. They are as complex in their thoughts and opinions as people from your country.

----------------

Btfo and Gtfo. But, please oh please, follow up with your limp dick appeal to *international community organisations, watch dogs and chemical inspector authorities* Who of course fall in line with western thinking and propaganda.

Lol like the UN, NATO or any other western state / inspectors are going to go against the U.S.

By the same retarded criteria i suppose kim in north korea is also popular no? Lol