technique over power.

[spacetime]

Muhammed Ali did not have both speed and technique?

 

[aerius]

Muhammed Ali did not have both speed and technique?

If you have to ask the answer is no.

 

[CoolKnees]

Personally I'm not a stickler for "perfect technique". What's perfect technique anyways? Who decides that? As far as I'm concerned, if it works, it works. You will never know what perfect technique is because it doesn't exist. You'll only know what's "garbage" technique because you're either 1. not going to land that strike or 2. going to get exploited and punished.

Manny Pacquiao is a fighter that has garbage form yet is easily an A++ fighter. When he throws punches he always looks like he's off balance, yet he generates so much speed and power and rarely gets countered. Critics would say for years that he was vulnerable on the right because he always drops his right hand when throwing a left. Yet remarkably, the only one to ever seriously hit (and KO) him with it was Marquez, and it took Marquez 4 fights to do it.

Muhammed Ali was another fighter who was always criticized for having poor form. Every time he threw a jab, he kept his right hand low. He didn't know how to throw a proper uppercut. He slipped punches going backwards. These are tendencies well known by his opponents yet Ali would somehow always stay on the winning side. Hmm?

 

[spacetime]

If you have to ask the answer is no.

I don't know what you said no to.

 

[eternaldarkness]

Personally I'm not a stickler for "perfect technique". What's perfect technique anyways? Who decides that? As far as I'm concerned, if it works, it works. You will never know what perfect technique is because it doesn't exist. You'll only know what's "garbage" technique because you're either 1. not going to land that strike or 2. going to get exploited and punished.

Manny Pacquiao is a fighter that has garbage form yet is easily an A++ fighter. When he throws punches he always looks like he's off balance, yet he generates so much speed and power and rarely gets countered. Critics would say for years that he was vulnerable on the right because he always drops his right hand when throwing a left. Yet remarkably, the only one to ever seriously hit (and KO) him with it was Marquez, and it took Marquez 4 fights to do it.

Muhammed Ali was another fighter who was always criticized for having poor form. Every time he threw a jab, he kept his right hand low. He didn't know how to throw a proper uppercut. He slipped punches going backwards. These are tendencies well known by his opponents yet Ali would somehow always stay on the winning side. Hmm?

i agree completely. there is no such thing as perfect. it depends on what your gaols are to what sort of technique you use. are you trying to maximise defence or power?

 

[The Don]

did they travel in a wide circle ? Is that what you mean by loop?

so you mean not a short concise hook like they teach sometimes, you mean a long armed hook a hook that travels in a circular way but the arm is wide open?

Sorry to intrude in your conversation, but to be fair Foreman does throw some wide hooks and sometimes really sloppy right hands.

 

[Hotora86]

true but their is nothing mystical about it. and the technique would improve through repetition with out any technical instruction. it might take a little longer though.

Of course there is nothing mystical about repetition. I come from a Karate background where you would normally repeat simple punches on every session for your entire life. Naturally, your technique improves.
You might as well do the same without instruction and through trial and error but, as you yourself admit, it might take a little longer.

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

Sorry to intrude in your conversation, but to be fair Foreman does throw some wide hooks and sometimes really sloppy right hands.

show me when? Ive never seen any

 

[panamaican]

Then why wasn't Muhammed Ali a particular heavy puncher? He had both.

Who says he wasn't? At his height and weight, what's the standard for being a "heavy puncher"? Considering that power exists on a gradient, to say that someone isn't a heavy puncher would mean that they're falling on the bottom third of the power scale for their specific body dimensions. I've never heard that of Ali.

Just because someone isn't the heaviest puncher in their division doesn't mean they lack power. Similarly, just because someone isn't the fastest person in the world doesn't mean that they're slow. These are relative things, not absolutes.

 

[The Don]

show me when? Ive never seen any

I will post a few instances when I'm on my desktop. If you find time before I do, check his fight against Holyfield. You can see Foreman throw sloppy straight right hands where it seems like it just goes limp midway through! As for wide body shots, I can't seem to remember which fight it was where George threw slow, looping body shots numerous times, although I will look for it.

 

[eternaldarkness]

show me when? Ive never seen any

have you seen many foreman fights? he is the only boxer i have seen the feints by dropping his hand down and any from the body.

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

have you seen many foreman fights? he is the only boxer i have seen the feints by dropping his hand down and any from the body.

drawing them in , ud do that too if u were as hard headed powerful and slow as foreman, smart tactic tailored to his genes

thats the problem with guys like foreman or roy jones jr etc the smartest thing for them to do is not at all a bright thing to do for a normal boxer and so people wrongly conclude they are not fighting smart when they are

 

[eternaldarkness]

drawing them in , ud do that too if u were as hard headed powerful and slow as foreman, smart tactic tailored to his genes

don't get me wrong foreman is one of my favourite boxers. i just cracks me up that he punched so hard that he got use tactics like that. it is not exactly the usual way boxers fake punches.

 

[The Don]

show me when? Ive never seen any

Here are the examples of Foreman throwing wide hooks to the body. I'd recommend slowing down the video to it's slowest setting on Youtube. This is one of many wide hooks Foreman threw in the fight. Of course, Foreman doesn't throw everything like this, but he is no exception in throwing with bad form from time to time.



Another wide hook that leaves Big George wide open:


A looping right that puts Foreman off balance.
Although not the right I was referring to where it seems to just lose its power and go "Limp" halfway through:



Again, I suggest you watch the whole fight if you haven't already and if you have, I suggest watch it again! You can see the right hands I'm referring too. It seems like he throws the straight right hand but the rest of his body doesn't seem to follow through and it just becomes almost like an arm punch. Plus, it's a great fight!

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

Here are the examples of Foreman throwing wide hooks to the body. I'd recommend slowing down the video to it's slowest setting on Youtube. This is one of many wide hooks Foreman threw in the fight. Of course, Foreman doesn't throw everything like this, but he is no exception in throwing with bad form from time to time.



Another wide hook that leaves Big George wide open:


A looping right that puts Foreman off balance.
Although not the right I was referring to where it seems to just lose its power and go "Limp" halfway through:



Again, I suggest you watch the whole fight if you haven't already and if you have, I suggest watch it again! You can see the right hands I'm referring too. It seems like he throws the straight right hand but the rest of his body doesn't seem to follow through and it just becomes almost like an arm punch. Plus, it's a great fight!

No theres nothing wrong with his technique it is still a long hook, a good technique, he is using it properly not getting it wrong, sugar ray Robinson uses it too all the time, the long hook does have its downsides its disadvantages it does leave you open if you miss, it is slow, it easier to avoid usually, thats what they are pointing out he has made no error in technique.

As long as the elbow is slightly bent its still a legitimate long hook and not a swing you can still get power on it loads of other pro boxers do the same as george, look at how long the left hook was that Sugar Ray Robinson used

here is roy doing it to the body , some people call them slaps because theres not much structural support behind the shot those people are ignorant

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

Spacetime you can show me a faulty punch either I asked for 1 instance 1 piece of footage and you wont answer because you know you are ignorant and have got this wrong you thought he was throwing right loops when they were straight, and you were disgusted by his long hooks to the body saying it was bar room stuff when its good boxing technique. Admit you are an ignoramus !

 

[The Don]

No theres nothing wrong with his technique it is still a long hook, a good technique, he is using it properly not getting it wrong, sugar ray Robinson uses it too all the time, the long hook does have its downsides its disadvantages it does leave you open if you miss, it is slow, it easier to avoid usually, thats what they are pointing out he has made no error in technique.

As long as the elbow is slightly bent its still a legitimate long hook and not a swing you can still get power on it loads of other pro boxers do the same as george, look at how long the left hook was that Sugar Ray Robinson used

here is roy doing it to the body , some people call them slaps because theres not much structural support behind the shot those people are ignorant

This friendly argument will boil down to personal preference and opinion. Long hooks are fine, but wide hooks like Foreman is throwing is not. He's out of balance in those instances I showed you, and wide open. They're not compact by any means and his upper body is leaning forward.

The first GIF featuring Robinson is a beautiful "long" hook, but it isn't wide. It's compact and he still maintains a bladed stance, unlike Foreman and RJJ where their stance are squared off.

Edit!: I reviewed the links and I may have exaggerated Foreman's stance, it wasn't as squared off as I thought it was, but still wide and off balance nonetheless.

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

This friendly argument will boil down to personal preference and opinion. Long hooks are fine, but wide hooks like Foreman is throwing is not. He's out of balance in those instances I showed you, and wide open. They're not compact by any means and his upper body is leaning forward.

The first GIF featuring Robinson is a beautiful "long" hook, but it isn't wide. It's compact and he still maintains a bladed stance, unlike Foreman and RJJ where their stance are squared off.

They r square /wide open because they are using full hip rotation, SSR does that too just the same. The reason he wasnt wide open was because it was a left hook from stance without any loading and very little hip rotation, he does it fully open fully loaded and with full hip rotation and openness too.

SRR and RJJ is doing what you call a "wide open" long hook and the are 2 of the best of all time.

Sugar Ray Lenard too and Mayweather

It may or may not be opinion but all the very best are doing what you think is wrong and bad

 

[BringBackTRTforFairness]

Every1 likes to shit on Foremans skill, but hes very skillful, hes just not orthodox

Same thing happens to Fedor in MMA where people and even commentators like to shit on his hands because he likes to use alot of long hooks, he has some of the best technical hands in MMA

Hell people even shit on Tysons skill suggesting hes some kind of brawler because he uses alot of hooks, hes one of the most technical HWs of all time

 

[The Don]

They r square /wide open because they are using full hip rotation, SSR does that too just the same. The reason he wasnt wide open was because it was a left hook from stance without any loading and very little hip rotation, he does it fully open fully loaded and with full hip rotation and openness too.

SRR and RJJ is doing what you call a "wide open" long hook and the are 2 of the best of all time.

Sugar Ray Lenard too and Mayweather

It may or may not be opinion but all the very best are doing what you think is wrong and bad

The first is an overhand right, is it not?

Also, the second GIF is of Leonard! He always throws his hooks in that fashion, almost like how Ali used to throw his hooks when in close. (If you're referring to his flashy flurry)

Also, you can't expect the best to always be on point and do everything by the book, nor should we expect them too. It's such an unrealistic expectation. I'm simply pointing out that Foreman has thrown a wide hook. And in 81 fights I find it hard to believe he has not thrown a wide hook or a single strike with bad form.

Incorrect form will always be incorrect form regardless of who performs it or how high they are in the rankings.

As for the Mayweather GIF, I don't think that's as wide as Foreman's hooks, and I don't think Floyd can make that right hook any narrower even if he wanted too at that distance.