The All-Purpose Motorsports Thread

[snakedafunky]

Ferrari wants the manufacturers trophy and the points from both cars count for that so they needed both to finish in the points. Last year they could count on a Honda blowing up. I could understand one bad stop, but two is pretty unbelievable. When you have one mistake that costs you a car out of the race, taking the extra time to get the second one right would be imperative. Something that never happens, happening twice to the same team within minutes is difficult to believe. The fact that it benefited the company that supplies Haas with their powerplants is just to convenient.

So how does this work? Ferrari calls Hass and tells them to not screw on a wheel correctly? That doesn't work so they tell them to do it again?
How many of the engineer from Hass are involved? And how would you even screw on a wheel wrong so that you can plan where to stop on the track?
And why did they do it wrong the first time? I mean that must be the worst way to fix a race by having the pitstop crew put the tires on wrong not once but twice.
You can't possibly believe that?

 

[Graves The Elder]

hm, really doubting Haas would acquiesce to such a devious plan just to aid their engine supplier. ferrari supplies several teams with engines and I've never suspected they've made mistakes on purpose to help scuderia.

that's like believing espn intentionally provided shit coverage to force ppl into paying for the F1 channel,
if it even ever materializes.

if you noticed, at one point after both failed pit stops, a mechanic was seen removing the air gun from it's holder in pit lane and taking it. I assume they discover a malfunction either in the gun or the compressor that supplies it with air.

unless of course, the gun was tampered with to make it fail and it was taken to hide the evidence of a conspiracy. lol

 

[ralphc1]

So how does this work? Ferrari calls Hass and tells them to not screw on a wheel correctly? That doesn't work so they tell them to do it again?
How many of the engineer from Hass are involved? And how would you even screw on a wheel wrong so that you can plan where to stop on the track?
And why did they do it wrong the first time? I mean that must be the worst way to fix a race by having the pitstop crew put the tires on wrong not once but twice.
You can't possibly believe that?

Did you see the interview with Vettel after qualifying? He was saying that Lewis could enjoy his party then but they had something for them in the race. Why leave Vettel out so long? If they didn't get the virtual safety car he would have been in third or maybe even fourth when he came out of the pit under a green condition. If Vettel is in third behind Raikonnen, they can have Raikkonen slow to let Vettel finish second to get more points. If Vettel dropped to fourth because he stayed out too long the third place car isn't going to let him pass easily.

Haas blaming it on a lack of practice is even harder to believe. I'm sure those guys practice every day.

It's like the guy who gets caught by the police with drugs in his pocket who claims they aren't his pants.

 

[ralphc1]

hm, really doubting Haas would acquiesce to such a devious plan just to aid their engine supplier. ferrari supplies several teams with engines and I've never suspected they've made mistakes on purpose to help scuderia.

that's like believing espn intentionally provided shit coverage to force ppl into paying for the F1 channel,
if it even ever materializes.

if you noticed, at one point after both failed pit stops, a mechanic was seen removing the air gun from it's holder in pit lane and taking it. I assume they discover a malfunction either in the gun or the compressor that supplies it with air.

unless of course, the gun was tampered with to make it fail and it was taken to hide the evidence of a conspiracy. lol

They have to make it look good. It certainly wasn't something planned at the last minute. They likely studied all winter to see what the timing had to be. The first car only got a local yellow, it took the second to get the virtual safety car.

 

[Graves The Elder]

hm, dunno ralph.
I'm gonna have to be skeptical of the whole conspiracy theory scenario involving Ferrari and Haas in this race.
perhaps more info will come to light in the coming days regarding the whole debacle.

 

[snakedafunky]

Did you see the interview with Vettel after qualifying? He was saying that Lewis could enjoy his party then but they had something for them in the race. Why leave Vettel out so long? If they didn't get the virtual safety car he would have been in third or maybe even fourth when he came out of the pit under a green condition. If Vettel is in third behind Raikonnen, they can have Raikkonen slow to let Vettel finish second to get more points. If Vettel dropped to fourth because he stayed out too long the third place car isn't going to let him pass easily.

Haas blaming it on a lack of practice is even harder to believe. I'm sure those guys practice every day.

It's like the guy who gets caught by the police with drugs in his pocket who claims they aren't his pants.

I am not really sure how to respond to that.
Do you know how many things can possibly go wrong to try and fix a race by screwing on the tire wrong not once but twice?
What if the driver stops where you don't get a safety car? I mean how would you possibly think it would lead to VSC?
That's like a 1 in 100 chance. While the risk of getting discovered is serious. Why not just tell Hass to pretend a technical defect? Or have them drive into the wall.

And image if they wheel came off and killed or injure someone. Now you have a criminal investigation that might be the end of Ferrari F1.
I mean I don't put it past Ferrari to try and stretch the rules as much as possible.
But having another team put the tire back on wrong not once but twice is beyond ridiculous. And the worst possible method to fix a race.

 

[ralphc1]

I am not really sure how to respond to that.
Do you know how many things can possibly go wrong to try and fix a race by screwing on the tire wrong not once but twice?
What if the driver stops where you don't get a safety car? I mean how would you possibly think it would lead to VSC?
That's like a 1 in 100 chance. While the risk of getting discovered is serious. Why not just tell Hass to pretend a technical defect? Or have them drive into the wall.

And image if they wheel came off and killed or injure someone. Now you have a criminal investigation that might be the end of Ferrari F1.
I mean I don't put it past Ferrari to try and stretch the rules as much as possible.
But having another team put the tire back on wrong not once but twice is beyond ridiculous. And the worst possible method to fix a race.

This was a brilliant plan by Ferrari. They really did their homework. There is nothing in the rules preventing it aside from the unsafe release penalties that Formula One has already assessed to Haas. The Haas cars should have been stopped before they got out of the pit and onto the track. I've seen it done many times over the years but that wouldn't have provided the desired results. With the new rules, they can't claim a technical failure of a part that has a limited replacement like the ECU. Crashing costs more money and can damage a gear box which is another limited component.

From the Formula One website;

Under the VSC, drivers must reduce their speed and stay above a minimum time set by the FIA at least once in each marshalling sector. Stewards can impose penalties for any transgressions.

The cars are timed by loops embedded in the track. Once Vettel crossed the last loop before pit entrance, he could speed up because he wouldn't cross the next loop. I don't know how many segments there are. They provide information during practice and qualifying for 3 sectors. If they only use those 3, Vettel had a considerable distance that he could run faster than the other cars prior to leaving the track for the pit.

The track in Australia has a fairly long pit entrance where there is no speed limit and a fairly short distance where there is a speed limit. As you see on the map below, the path through the pit is shorter than the path on the track. Being able to drive at a higher speed than the cars on the track gives an advantage.

They didn't wait for the wheel to fall off. They pulled off to the side in a place where there isn't a place to park the car safely. There was no reason to stop the cars. They were still running. There have been cars that lost wheels or tires and drove back to the pit. There were a number of places they could have driven to where the car would have been out of the way but they chose to stop in a place that would require the virtual safety car so they avoided your 100 to 1 chance.

I would say that the odds of the same error happening on two successive pit stops
is astronomical.

As I said earlier, even if Hass and Ferrari were to admit they did it on purpose, there doesn't seem to be any more that F1 can do. I'm sure there will be changes in the future. The virtual safety car is a relatively new tool that doesn't seem to work well. It leaves the cars spread out around the track so it doesn't leave a long period without traffic like the normal safety car does. They need that time to get cars off the track safely.

 

[snakedafunky]

This was a brilliant plan by Ferrari. They really did their homework. There is nothing in the rules preventing it aside from the unsafe release penalties that Formula One has already assessed to Haas. The Haas cars should have been stopped before they got out of the pit and onto the track. I've seen it done many times over the years but that wouldn't have provided the desired results. With the new rules, they can't claim a technical failure of a part that has a limited replacement like the ECU. Crashing costs more money and can damage a gear box which is another limited component.

From the Formula One website;


The cars are timed by loops embedded in the track. Once Vettel crossed the last loop before pit entrance, he could speed up because he wouldn't cross the next loop. I don't know how many segments there are. They provide information during practice and qualifying for 3 sectors. If they only use those 3, Vettel had a considerable distance that he could run faster than the other cars prior to leaving the track for the pit.

The track in Australia has a fairly long pit entrance where there is no speed limit and a fairly short distance where there is a speed limit. As you see on the map below, the path through the pit is shorter than the path on the track. Being able to drive at a higher speed than the cars on the track gives an advantage.

They didn't wait for the wheel to fall off. They pulled off to the side in a place where there isn't a place to park the car safely. There was no reason to stop the cars. They were still running. There have been cars that lost wheels or tires and drove back to the pit. There were a number of places they could have driven to where the car would have been out of the way but they chose to stop in a place that would require the virtual safety car so they avoided your 100 to 1 chance.

I would say that the odds of the same error happening on two successive pit stops
is astronomical.

As I said earlier, even if Hass and Ferrari were to admit they did it on purpose, there doesn't seem to be any more that F1 can do. I'm sure there will be changes in the future. The virtual safety car is a relatively new tool that doesn't seem to work well. It leaves the cars spread out around the track so it doesn't leave a long period without traffic like the normal safety car does. They need that time to get cars off the track safely.

This just doesn't make any sense. So they somehow come up with this super complicated plan that takes out both Hass.
Because they are worried about cost or damage. But they are totally fine taking out both cars while in the points?

So what is the actual theory? Because until now it is all over the place.
Some questions would be:
Did they put on the tires wrong or just pretend that?
Who was involved from Hass and Ferrari and at what point did they make the decision.
Why did they get it wrong the first time?

Do you have any sort of complete theory? Because that stuff is just all over the place.

 

[Graves The Elder]

If there was any funny business, the drivers weren't aware of it. Grosjean was quoted as saying, "It is very strange, this business. We practiced all off season with no problems."

 

[snakedafunky]

If there was any funny business, the drivers weren't aware of it. Grosjean was quoted as saying, "It is very strange, this business. We practiced all off season with no problems."

Yeah, I just think that would be such a strange way of fixing a race because you can't control where the car would stop.
It could go anywhere from still noticing it in the pit lane to crashing and having a red flag.

But conspiracy aside @ralphc1
What you guys think about the new cars. I don't like the look of that Halo at all.
The new Ferrari looks stunning with all that red but is ruined by the Halo.
Also not a fan of no grid girls. Not that it matters too much and F1 has to go with the times but that was just always part of it.

 

[Graves The Elder]

Cars look better since they went back to bigger tires, let's face it technology is the real star of this series.
And not having grid girls is just stupid. It's a grand tradition and the chicks get paid ffs.
Now they don't. Silly appeasement to the latest PC edict.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

Pretty cool to see Clint Bowyer win again. He's kind of a throw back to the old school guys and actually has a personality. Was funny seeing him at the catch fence trying to get a fan to throw him a beer.

 

[ralphc1]

This just doesn't make any sense. So they somehow come up with this super complicated plan that takes out both Hass.
Because they are worried about cost or damage. But they are totally fine taking out both cars while in the points?

So what is the actual theory? Because until now it is all over the place.
Some questions would be:
Did they put on the tires wrong or just pretend that?
Who was involved from Hass and Ferrari and at what point did they make the decision.
Why did they get it wrong the first time?

Do you have any sort of complete theory? Because that stuff is just all over the place.

I have no idea what you mean by all over the place. I've been very consistent and straight forward.

I assume the planning started in the off season or possibly years ago and they had the opportunity to use it this year. Ferrari knew they didn't have the speed to beat Hamilton after qualifying. When Vettel was in third, their only chance was strategy. They had Raikonnen push Hamilton hard to try to use up his tires and fuel while having Vettel take it easier to save tires and fuel. When Ferrari had Raikonnen pit, Mercedes was forced to pit Hamilton because Raikonnen might be faster on new tires and Hamilton could lose the advantage he had over Raikonnen. The pit differential under a green flag was around 20 seconds. As long as Hamilton wasn't more than that behind Vettel, he would have the lead after Vettel stopped for tires. Vettel would have several laps fresher tires so Hamilton had to conserve his tires. He kept his distance from Vettel. They didn't have the correct time differential for a virtual safety car stop.

Ferrari could hope that someone else brought the virtual safety car out. Last season they could count on a Honda blowing up at that time but it didn't happen so Ferrari needed a way to get a virtual safety car. They didn't want the actual safety car just a virtual safety car. The Haas cars were just the back up plan in case there wasn't a safety car in time. When the first Haas car stopped, it only brought out a local caution which wouldn't allow Ferrari to make up enough time so they needed a second car to stop.

The nuts were supposedly cross threaded. The wheels didn't come off. They might have been loose but they didn't stop the car from moving. There was no reason to stop the car in an area of the track where it can't be removed easily. The car could have been driven to a safe place to leave them with no caution.

A loose wheel would have been noticeable before leaving the pit lane. There was a place to stop at the end of the pit road without blocking the exit. Cars were stopping there in practice and qualifying to wait for a space between cars.

I don't know how they could cross thread a nut on a Formula One car with the mounting system they use. There is a pilot shaft before the thread that aligns the nut so it can't go on crooked. Here is a video from 2012 and the mounting system today would be very similar. I think they have added a lock that will only release when the socket is engaged on the nut. There are cars in the video that lost wheels and kept going. I have seen occasions when the car was released before a gun was even put on the wheel. In the past I've seen cars lose a wheel and rive all the way around the track to get back to the pit to put another wheel on and keep running.

 

[ralphc1]

If there was any funny business, the drivers weren't aware of it. Grosjean was quoted as saying, "It is very strange, this business. We practiced all off season with no problems."

The Haas team principle said it happened because they didn't have time to practice pit stops. They were even talking about that during the NASCAR race weekend. It sounded like a lame excuse and Grosjean's comment seems to confirm it. The drivers wouldn't know what is going on. The engineer tells them to park the car. Who knows if there was even anything wrong with the cars?

 

[ralphc1]

Cars look better since they went back to bigger tires, let's face it technology is the real star of this series.
And not having grid girls is just stupid. It's a grand tradition and the chicks get paid ffs.
Now they don't. Silly appeasement to the latest PC edict.

Wouldn't have mattered since ESPN screwed up the pre-race coverage. NASCAR still has the Monster Energy girls.

 

[ralphc1]

Yeah, I just think that would be such a strange way of fixing a race because you can't control where the car would stop.
It could go anywhere from still noticing it in the pit lane to crashing and having a red flag.

But conspiracy aside @ralphc1
What you guys think about the new cars. I don't like the look of that Halo at all.
The new Ferrari looks stunning with all that red but is ruined by the Halo.
Also not a fan of no grid girls. Not that it matters too much and F1 has to go with the times but that was just always part of it.

The engineer tells the driver where to stop.

As I said prior to last season when they were going to the wider tires, it made the cars wider and harder to pass. I don't mind the halo. It's interesting to see some teams using it to mount some aero equipment.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

Do any of you guys watch MotoGP?

 

[ralphc1]

Do any of you guys watch MotoGP?

I watch from time to time but I don't know if anyone has it live. Watching a recorded race is rather pointless to me. It's very much like an F1 race with very little passing. In real time, many of the races would be at odd times during the night so I understand why no broadcasters in the US pick them up for a live broadcast.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

I watch from time to time but I don't know if anyone has it live. Watching a recorded race is rather pointless to me. It's very much like an F1 race with very little passing. In real time, many of the races would be at odd times during the night so I understand why no broadcasters in the US pick them up for a live broadcast.

My girlfriend is into it big time and got me into it the last couple years. She bought the internet subscription for it and we watch it Sunday mornings without knowing the results.

As far as the racing goes, you'd be surprised. I watch Nascar, Indycar and some F1 and it actually has the best racing of the top motorsport series. There's a good amount of passing by the top riders. It's not like every single race is a barn burner but on average I think it's the best racing to watch right now. My only gripe is the underdogs have almost no shot at winning. There are the top factory teams, a couple of semi factory teams that get last years equipment and then the rest of the teams are basically non competitive unless it's raining. Rain during a motogp race kind of equalizes the field like a restrictor plate does for Nascar.

The riders are fairly interesting too. Valentino Rossi is the best of all time and still very competitive. His longevity is unprecedented in a sport that has always been dominated by young men. Marc Marquez is the best in the world right now and might end up being the best of all time. He's by far the most aggressive rider and makes saves that no one else in the world can make.

 

[Graves The Elder]

I watched it back in the day when Rossi was dominating. Stoner, Kentucky Kid, etc.
you'd have to stream it now on eurosport or something, no one in the US shows it live anymore.