The COMPLETE Progression and Evolution of Leg locks in MMA/Bjj/Sub Grappling

Jeez, Satoru Kitaoka has 10 wins via leg/foot/ankle lock. He's got to be in the discussion. Iminari has 16! Ken Shamrock has 9.
 
One thing that struck me after the UFC at the weekend is despite all this evolution in leg locks knee bars and toe holds seem largely the same as they were 5+ years or even 10+ years ago. Calf slicers too i guess haven't really changed much either come to think of it.

All the 'Modern' developments are around controlling position and finishing heel-hooks and ankle locks in different ways to the accepted methods most commonly taught before. Is there somebody out there bringing knee bars, toe holds or calf slicers on several levels i just don't know about? If not does anyone have any thoughts on why not and is there scope for a similar progression there in MMA or pure grappling now they're the neglected cousins of heel hooks & ankle locks?
 
Abbreviated version:
-Gracies
-The Russians, Japanese, a handful of Americans, and a few old school Europeans.
-UFC & PRIDE fighters in 2005-2010 range.
-Palhares.
-Belcher (Gokor, Lister, a Louisiana BJJ OG).
-Danaher
-???????
Sterling and Zabit? :)

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One thing that struck me after the UFC at the weekend is despite all this evolution in leg locks knee bars and toe holds seem largely the same as they were 5+ years or even 10+ years ago. Calf slicers too i guess haven't really changed much either come to think of it.

All the 'Modern' developments are around controlling position and finishing heel-hooks and ankle locks in different ways to the accepted methods most commonly taught before. Is there somebody out there bringing knee bars, toe holds or calf slicers on several levels i just don't know about? If not does anyone have any thoughts on why not and is there scope for a similar progression there in MMA or pure grappling now they're the neglected cousins of heel hooks & ankle locks?

Short answer: It's like finding the best move in a video game. It's just less efficient to use anything other than the best move.

Long answer:

The reason you don't see any advancement in those areas is cost/benefit. People only tap in competition if losing the match is worth keeping that particular body part functional. High level guys are going to go for moves that A) people will tap to, or B) people will be crippled by for the remainder of the match (see: Dave Camarillo's perspective on armbars).

An achilles lock, and a toe hold that puts pressure on the ankle, only really threaten the ankle. A popped ankle can be still moderately functional for the rest of the match (hell, in the case of the Miyaos, I think they just walk around on permanently annihilated ankles, so for the rest of their lives in that case). That, and an ankle injury can be reasonably healed; most of the time you can just RICE it, and you're good to go. A serious injury to the ankle may require some surgery or a boot, but is not as relatively permanently debilitating otherwise. Damage to the knee, however? Much worse. Compared to the ankle, there's relatively no regenerative ability, and there's only so much surgery can do. Also a serious tear can potentially render you unable to fight effectively for the remainder of the match. So, while you'd let an ankle lock go, you won't let a heel hook go; it's not going to work in the match, and it's going to negatively affect your career (and life), so you tap. I once walked a mile on an ankle fracture; it sucked, but I was physically able to do it. You can't do the same thing with an acl tear, the mechanism just doesn't operate. Knowing that someone at the high levels (which is where innovation occurs) won't necessarily tap to an ankle attack, but will to a heel hook, begs the question of why you would bother pushing forward new ankle lock tech?

Some toe holds can attack on the knee in the same fashion as a heel hook, but require a certain angle and the planets to align. Also they don't carry the same "fear" as a heel hook. You know a heel hook is going to explode your knee, so you tap. Unless you're sophisticated enough to know what knee pressure equates to severe damage (and have time to process that feel and tap), most people will try to power through. There's a crap ton of footage of the Miyao's just taking toe holds. They also walk like they don't have an ankle joint and have sticks from the knee through to the foot. Strategically then, toe holds make sense as a quick, low risk low reward, out of nowhere attack; best case, I explode his knee (or he taps). Worst case, it makes his ankle slightly less efficient for the remainder of the match. In BJJ, the latter case (where you aren't forced to stand like in MMA) is less of a big deal. So why bother innovating toe holds?

Calf-slicers and Kneebars attack the knee, but they're just finnicky; hard to position, and tiny movements can invalidate the kneebar attempt (though defenses do lead into heel hooks or heel hook positions; however, the question as to "why not just set up your heel hook instead of wasting time on the kneebar" is a tough one to answer). However, kneebars do result in a torn ACL, so they're certainly worth more time investment than ankle based attacks; but whether you can create a reliable secure platform around kneebars is the question. As for calf slicers, they're also a little finnicky (you really have to get as deep into the knee-pit as possible). I have to admit I'm not sure how catastrophic calf slicer injuries are compared to heel hooks. I understand the underlying mechanical function; put a brick in a hinge, slam the door shut, hinge will break. How that translates into human body parts, I'm not sure. However, it certainly takes more effort to get these techniques in just the right spots to create the injury; so the question is, why make that effort, when heel hooks give you such a better return on your investment?

Having options is great, but usually the better choice is always to improve the leg positioning to better facilitate a heel hook; either the guy isn't going to tap (ankle lock, toe hold), or it's too hard to line up the sub (knee bars, calfslicers). It also doesn't help that some of the most secure positioning puts you directly in heel hooking posture.
 
Disagree on one aspect on the ankle lock bit DatCutman; there actually has been a massive evolution in technique there over the last ten years or so. They used to be mostly taught with things like flat forearms under the calf, figure-4 grips and an emphasis on extending backwards for years. All of that has been replaced by some sort of rotational pressure bending the foot inwards as the inside of the ankle is driven outwards. This is created using your hips and upper body from pretty much all the same control positions used with Heel Hooks and has happened relatively recently. Every modern version of the ankle lock finish, the Estima Lock and the Toe Hold all apply the same rotating attack to the ankle joint they just use different methods to get there.

From Max Bishop to Roli Delgado to Cavaca in the IBJJF world for the 50/50 version around 09-10 there was a big leap in technique and on to guys like Luiz Panza a bit later. Then there are innovations like Caio Terra's version from DLR which was well hidden before then if anyone else was doing it.

There are obviously guys like the Miyao's who probably won't tap to any variation of an Ankle Lock finish old or new but that and the improvements in Heel Hook technique doesn't mean there hasn't been a lot of refinement around techniques with Ankle Locks too. The Heel Hook is king but i guess the separate world the IBJJF and some MMA rulesets create should have meant similar evolution with all the other leg attacks, my observation was its only really happened with the Ankle Locks from what i can see.

Maybe someone will be forced to figure out a way to use them more effectively as Heel Hook defences catches up with offence? Or maybe they'll always be dead ends to some degree for the reasons you suggest and remain more situational attacks despite Sterling & Zabit's moments of magic? :)
 
One thing that struck me after the UFC at the weekend is despite all this evolution in leg locks knee bars and toe holds seem largely the same as they were 5+ years or even 10+ years ago. Calf slicers too i guess haven't really changed much either come to think of it.

All the 'Modern' developments are around controlling position and finishing heel-hooks and ankle locks in different ways to the accepted methods most commonly taught before. Is there somebody out there bringing knee bars, toe holds or calf slicers on several levels i just don't know about? If not does anyone have any thoughts on why not and is there scope for a similar progression there in MMA or pure grappling now they're the neglected cousins of heel hooks & ankle locks?
In the grand scheme of freestyle fighting leg locks are essentially a plan B. Yeah there are entries from the top but if you don't get the tap/break you end up on bottom. Not a great place to be when closed fists and elbows are involved in your grappling exchange.

For this reason a lot of fighters spend little if any time at all drilling these techniques, even though they should. Time becoming a leg locks ninja could be spent on far more important skills, wrestling, boxing, MT, basic bjj, etc.

That's not to say I don't consider leglocks to be basic bjj, but that the depth you can get into leg locks might not be practical for most fighters to spend a lot of time learning all the advanced entries/finishes.
 
In the grand scheme of freestyle fighting leg locks are essentially a plan B. Yeah there are entries from the top but if you don't get the tap/break you end up on bottom. Not a great place to be when closed fists and elbows are involved in your grappling exchange.
Do you also oppose triangles, armbars, attempts to take the back..?

All of those can easily, and often do, end up with the BJJ guy on bottom in side control or guard when they don’t work.

Leglocks can and often are used as control positions. There are degrees of messing up. If you screw up a leglock a little, you transition to a different leglock, use it as a guard pass, or end up back on top in guard or side control (straight or cross ashi). If you screw it up a lot, you end up in bottom in guard, turtle, or side control.

They’re not different from back take attempts, armbars, triangles, or many other “basic” bjj moves in that regard.
 
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What? The boots? Still, it was impressive. He was pretty brutal in his application of them. That Bas kneebar was sweet. What was your point?

pancreas, boots, fake fights and stuff...
 
Disagree on one aspect on the ankle lock bit DatCutman; there actually has been a massive evolution in technique there over the last ten years or so.

The modern ankle locks are a complete different thing to the old school variants.
Some of the better new ones but serious pressure on the foot while a lot of the old school ones where causing a moderate to serious bruising of the calf.
 
All the 'Modern' developments are around controlling position and finishing heel-hooks and ankle locks in different ways to the accepted methods most commonly taught before. Is there somebody out there bringing knee bars, toe holds or calf slicers on several levels i just don't know about?

Braulio/Caio Terra/Cobrinha have custom methods of finishing toe holds but it doesn't seem there are super reliable setups or entries for them (same with knee bars and calf slicers).
Elite guys are sometimes caught with kneebars in IBJJF comps but a lot of them seem opportunistic
rather that can be hit reliably (like heel hooks)
 
Do you also oppose triangles, armbars, attempts to take the back..?

All of those can easily, and often do, end up with the BJJ guy on bottom in side control or guard when they don’t work.

Leglocks can and often are used as control positions. There are degrees of messing up. If you screw up a leglock a little, you transition to a different leglock, use it as a guard, pass, or end up back on top in guard or side control (straight or cross ashi). If you screw it up a lot, you end up in bottom in guard, turtle, or side control.

They’re not different from back take attempts, armbars, triangles, or many other “basic” bjj moves in that regard.

Absolutely right

If you don't care about the point system, it's just as risky as any submission.

If you miss an armbar you're on your back and maybe you've put yourself in a position to get stack passed, same thing with a triangle. When you attempt a sub from the top, you will pretty much follow the guy when he reverses you to try and finish your sub. Personnally I rarely have free hands to post when I have a submission.

But with the point system, reversals from sub that you're on the top or the back don't give them sweeping points. But if you end up on the bottom after trying leg locks, it can give the guy the sweeping points.
 
Do you also oppose triangles, armbars, attempts to take the back..?

All of those can easily, and often do, end up with the BJJ guy on bottom in side control or guard when they don’t work.

Leglocks can and often are used as control positions. There are degrees of messing up. If you screw up a leglock a little, you transition to a different leglock, use it as a guard, pass, or end up back on top in guard or side control (straight or cross ashi). If you screw it up a lot, you end up in bottom in guard, turtle, or side control.

They’re not different from back take attempts, armbars, triangles, or many other “basic” bjj moves in that regard.

I never said I opposed leglocks. In fact I use them quite a bit personally and have even attempted a few in MMA fights.

They arw different in an MMA context however. Triangles, armbars, RNCs, and pretty much every upper body submission either tie up your opponents arms, or put you in a position where your opponents GnP is negated completely.

Even in the most advantageous leg positions like the knot, or 411/honey hole, your opponents hands are still free to employ Gnp.

So even though you may lose position going for upper body subs, they aren't usually dangerous to go for until your opponent escapes the hold, or defends the sub long enough to establish some posture.

Again, I'm not saying fighters shouldn't go for them because I sure as hell do, but don't expect every fighter to think the same.

There are many ways to finish in MMA and a lot of fighters will opt to refine other skills before spending the time needed to become profiecent at finishing leglocks.
 
pancreas, boots, fake fights and stuff...
I hear the boots, although his opponents had boots too, but Im pretty certain Pancrase eschewed the works by the time UFC 1 rolled around. I mean most of the guys Ken submitted in Pancrase were screaming in pain while tapping.
 
I hear the boots, although his opponents had boots too, but Im pretty certain Pancrase eschewed the works by the time UFC 1 rolled around. I mean most of the guys Ken submitted in Pancrase were screaming in pain while tapping.

you know where people scream in pain while tapping.... WWE...

most grapplers dont scream in pain before tapping, most people just tap.

Im not saying all pancreas was fake, but you never knew which fight was fixed or not.
 
you know where people scream in pain while tapping.... WWE...

most grapplers dont scream in pain before tapping, most people just tap.

Im not saying all pancreas was fake, but you never knew which fight was fixed or not.
Bas screaming was pretty convincing. As were pretty much all of Ken's Pancrase wins. I can only think of 2 were the guys screamed and the shit looked painful. Actually, what exactly are you saying ? lol. Are you saying Ken's submission wins were works? Are you saying he didn't have legit leg/foot lock skills? Your posts on this have been kinda ambiguous.
 
The Fadda lineage is a non-Gracie line of jiujitsu (never trained under them) that was known back in the day for being dirty leglockers.

Soon = Sonnon, my laptop autocorrects too aggressively

And Delgado is definitely a better bjj instructor than MMA fighter (not a slight, he’s a great instructor)

I also realized after posting that I should have mentioned Imanari.
yeah, potential misunderstanding there tho...

When they organized in 1954 the challenge between Oswaldo Fadda´s students vs Gracie BJJ´s students,
the crowd (mainly pro-Gracies) was actually mockin´Oswaldo Fadda´s students coz they were good at leglocks, so people called them 'Shoeshiners'...

But they were not some kind of early Toquinhos...
 
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I just exited another thread started by @AZ103 posing the question of why leg locks are so effective in high level competition nowadays. There was a lot of good material in the thread. It got me thinking of the history of leg locks in grappling and MMA. What are the milestones? Who are the game-changers? And in what order?

This is not really my area of expertise but as far as I can tell, this is how it went.

I think its obvious and consensus that the greater submission scene in Bjj/Sub grappling/Vale Tudo/NHB/MMA started with the Gracies. I know there were other players and disciplines but they were the 1st to take it to the world stage. As far as I know leg locks were not a big part of their repertoire.

Then comes either the Japanese catch/shooto/combat wrestling practitioners that come mostly from the Billy Robinson/Karl Gotch CACC lineage (Paulson, Shamrock, Sakuraba, Sato, etc), OR, the Russian sambo guys from the early days of MMA/NHB (Taktarov, , Gokor, Chalangov, Semenov, etc). Obviously these guys had leg locks for days.

When I think of who came next I draw a blank up unti the mid/upper mid 2000s when I started seeing guys like Joe Stevenson, Kurt Pellegrino, Dokonjonosuke Mishima, Hector Lombard and others pulling off leg locks in the UFC and other high level MMA orgs. I didn't keep up with the grappling scene as much at that time. But the guy that took things a step further was Rousimar Palhares. Obviously he terrified people.

Then came the Alan Belcher fight. Belcher really prepared himself for Palhares and it bviously paid off. As far as I know, he sought out some Hayastan (Gokor) guys, Dean Lister, and if my memory serves, another submission guy from his native Louisiana to really up his game. In my opinion this is where leg locks really took off (2012). Alan let people know that you could really make huge strides in this relatively untapped sect of grappling if you put in the time and sought out multiple schools of thought.

Obviously I know in the following years leading up to today guys like Eddie Bravo and especially John Danaher got into the fray in a major way. But id like if you submission guys could fill in the gaps, tell me were I may be wrong, and expand on the story. Sorry so long but I think you guys will enjoy the read and following discussion.
yeah,

1/ in the Brazilian Vale Tudo scene, them Gracies were not really the main reference when it comes to leg locks, it was actually a Luta Livre thing (=Catch Wrasslin´+greco-roman wrasslin´+JJJ)
See:
> Ivan Gomes, famous for his heel hooks (Carlson would even credit him as the 'father of the heel hook technique'...)
> Master Tatu (founder of the Brazilian Luta Livre)

As someone said here, when they organized in 1954 the challenge btw Oswaldo Fadda´s students vs Gracie BJJ´s students,the crowd (mainly pro-Gracies) was actually mockin´Oswaldo Fadda´s students coz they were good at leglocks, so people called them Shoeshiners...

But.. this doesnt mean that all GJJ branches were biased against them leglocks:
> George won against Takeo Yano via...leg lock in 1938 [01/09]

> Carlson, after his draw vs Ivan Gomes, started cross-trainin´with him...

2/ in the Russian/Japanese Vale Tudo scene, hard to forget about ol´vets like Volk Han (heel hooks) and Kopylov (see his kneebar vs BJJ champ Castelo Branco), Ilyukhin (heel hooks) too..
RTT was pretty legit...

> Samboists like Zinoviev (kneebar), OLeg(kneebar), Valery Plyev(heel hooks), ..
> well-rounded strikers like Suloev (see his Suloev Stretch)

3/Other deceptive dudes:
> Valentijn Reem (heel hooks), Assuerio Silva (heel hooks) and Ninja [perhaps the best ground game @ Chuteboxe]... were noteworthy..
 
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