Sterling and Zabit?Abbreviated version:
-Gracies
-The Russians, Japanese, a handful of Americans, and a few old school Europeans.
-UFC & PRIDE fighters in 2005-2010 range.
-Palhares.
-Belcher (Gokor, Lister, a Louisiana BJJ OG).
-Danaher
-???????
Looks pretty innovative to me. Maybe someone can weigh in on if these set ups and finishes are innovative or not.Sterling and Zabit?
One thing that struck me after the UFC at the weekend is despite all this evolution in leg locks knee bars and toe holds seem largely the same as they were 5+ years or even 10+ years ago. Calf slicers too i guess haven't really changed much either come to think of it.
All the 'Modern' developments are around controlling position and finishing heel-hooks and ankle locks in different ways to the accepted methods most commonly taught before. Is there somebody out there bringing knee bars, toe holds or calf slicers on several levels i just don't know about? If not does anyone have any thoughts on why not and is there scope for a similar progression there in MMA or pure grappling now they're the neglected cousins of heel hooks & ankle locks?
In the grand scheme of freestyle fighting leg locks are essentially a plan B. Yeah there are entries from the top but if you don't get the tap/break you end up on bottom. Not a great place to be when closed fists and elbows are involved in your grappling exchange.One thing that struck me after the UFC at the weekend is despite all this evolution in leg locks knee bars and toe holds seem largely the same as they were 5+ years or even 10+ years ago. Calf slicers too i guess haven't really changed much either come to think of it.
All the 'Modern' developments are around controlling position and finishing heel-hooks and ankle locks in different ways to the accepted methods most commonly taught before. Is there somebody out there bringing knee bars, toe holds or calf slicers on several levels i just don't know about? If not does anyone have any thoughts on why not and is there scope for a similar progression there in MMA or pure grappling now they're the neglected cousins of heel hooks & ankle locks?
Ken has 9.. in pancreas...Jeez, Satoru Kitaoka has 10 wins via leg/foot/ankle lock. He's got to be in the discussion. Iminari has 16! Ken Shamrock has 9.
Do you also oppose triangles, armbars, attempts to take the back..?In the grand scheme of freestyle fighting leg locks are essentially a plan B. Yeah there are entries from the top but if you don't get the tap/break you end up on bottom. Not a great place to be when closed fists and elbows are involved in your grappling exchange.
What? The boots? Still, it was impressive. He was pretty brutal in his application of them. That Bas kneebar was sweet. What was your point?Ken has 9.. in pancreas...
What? The boots? Still, it was impressive. He was pretty brutal in his application of them. That Bas kneebar was sweet. What was your point?
Disagree on one aspect on the ankle lock bit DatCutman; there actually has been a massive evolution in technique there over the last ten years or so.
All the 'Modern' developments are around controlling position and finishing heel-hooks and ankle locks in different ways to the accepted methods most commonly taught before. Is there somebody out there bringing knee bars, toe holds or calf slicers on several levels i just don't know about?
Do you also oppose triangles, armbars, attempts to take the back..?
All of those can easily, and often do, end up with the BJJ guy on bottom in side control or guard when they don’t work.
Leglocks can and often are used as control positions. There are degrees of messing up. If you screw up a leglock a little, you transition to a different leglock, use it as a guard, pass, or end up back on top in guard or side control (straight or cross ashi). If you screw it up a lot, you end up in bottom in guard, turtle, or side control.
They’re not different from back take attempts, armbars, triangles, or many other “basic” bjj moves in that regard.
Do you also oppose triangles, armbars, attempts to take the back..?
All of those can easily, and often do, end up with the BJJ guy on bottom in side control or guard when they don’t work.
Leglocks can and often are used as control positions. There are degrees of messing up. If you screw up a leglock a little, you transition to a different leglock, use it as a guard, pass, or end up back on top in guard or side control (straight or cross ashi). If you screw it up a lot, you end up in bottom in guard, turtle, or side control.
They’re not different from back take attempts, armbars, triangles, or many other “basic” bjj moves in that regard.
I hear the boots, although his opponents had boots too, but Im pretty certain Pancrase eschewed the works by the time UFC 1 rolled around. I mean most of the guys Ken submitted in Pancrase were screaming in pain while tapping.pancreas, boots, fake fights and stuff...
I hear the boots, although his opponents had boots too, but Im pretty certain Pancrase eschewed the works by the time UFC 1 rolled around. I mean most of the guys Ken submitted in Pancrase were screaming in pain while tapping.
Bas screaming was pretty convincing. As were pretty much all of Ken's Pancrase wins. I can only think of 2 were the guys screamed and the shit looked painful. Actually, what exactly are you saying ? lol. Are you saying Ken's submission wins were works? Are you saying he didn't have legit leg/foot lock skills? Your posts on this have been kinda ambiguous.you know where people scream in pain while tapping.... WWE...
most grapplers dont scream in pain before tapping, most people just tap.
Im not saying all pancreas was fake, but you never knew which fight was fixed or not.
yeah, potential misunderstanding there tho...The Fadda lineage is a non-Gracie line of jiujitsu (never trained under them) that was known back in the day for being dirty leglockers.
Soon = Sonnon, my laptop autocorrects too aggressively
And Delgado is definitely a better bjj instructor than MMA fighter (not a slight, he’s a great instructor)
I also realized after posting that I should have mentioned Imanari.
yeah,I just exited another thread started by @AZ103 posing the question of why leg locks are so effective in high level competition nowadays. There was a lot of good material in the thread. It got me thinking of the history of leg locks in grappling and MMA. What are the milestones? Who are the game-changers? And in what order?
This is not really my area of expertise but as far as I can tell, this is how it went.
I think its obvious and consensus that the greater submission scene in Bjj/Sub grappling/Vale Tudo/NHB/MMA started with the Gracies. I know there were other players and disciplines but they were the 1st to take it to the world stage. As far as I know leg locks were not a big part of their repertoire.
Then comes either the Japanese catch/shooto/combat wrestling practitioners that come mostly from the Billy Robinson/Karl Gotch CACC lineage (Paulson, Shamrock, Sakuraba, Sato, etc), OR, the Russian sambo guys from the early days of MMA/NHB (Taktarov, , Gokor, Chalangov, Semenov, etc). Obviously these guys had leg locks for days.
When I think of who came next I draw a blank up unti the mid/upper mid 2000s when I started seeing guys like Joe Stevenson, Kurt Pellegrino, Dokonjonosuke Mishima, Hector Lombard and others pulling off leg locks in the UFC and other high level MMA orgs. I didn't keep up with the grappling scene as much at that time. But the guy that took things a step further was Rousimar Palhares. Obviously he terrified people.
Then came the Alan Belcher fight. Belcher really prepared himself for Palhares and it bviously paid off. As far as I know, he sought out some Hayastan (Gokor) guys, Dean Lister, and if my memory serves, another submission guy from his native Louisiana to really up his game. In my opinion this is where leg locks really took off (2012). Alan let people know that you could really make huge strides in this relatively untapped sect of grappling if you put in the time and sought out multiple schools of thought.
Obviously I know in the following years leading up to today guys like Eddie Bravo and especially John Danaher got into the fray in a major way. But id like if you submission guys could fill in the gaps, tell me were I may be wrong, and expand on the story. Sorry so long but I think you guys will enjoy the read and following discussion.