The Cost of Pro-Life: US now has (by far) highest maternal death rate in developed world

HomerThompson said:
1. From the article:

Texas, for example, saw its maternal mortality rate more than double between 2010 and 2014, as the state closed more than half of its abortion clinics and severely cut funding for Planned Parenthood. Thanks to Texas and a few other states with strong “pro-life” lobbies, mostly in the south, the US now bears the ghastly distinction of having the highest maternal mortality rate of all the world’s wealthy democracies.
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If they were so concerned about women's health why did they not just stop abortions and stay open to do all the other things they say they do for women.
 
oldshadow said:
If they were so concerned about women's health why did they not just stop abortions and stay open to do all the other things they say they do for women.
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Ummm...

you can't stay open if there is no money.
 
panamaican said:
It's healthcare in general. Abortion is just one part of that conversation. Particularly because it tends to tie into larger conversations about how we treat poor pregnant women.
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I think that is right. The correlation between abortion access and HC access is obv. I think there is also an impact of having choice/control over your body. Comparing the US to Ireland to European countries would be interesting as you all three cases. Limited choice/limited HC access, No choice/HC access, choice/HC access.

And I say this as proponent of number 3.
 
panamaican said:
Disagree. The act of creating a pregnancy is independent of what the parties do about the pregnancy after the fact.

The abortion is not the consequence of his/her choice. The pregnancy is the consequence. Both parties have post-pregnancy consequences. Therefore both parties have equal pre-pregnancy responsibilities. Just because one party's consequences don't mirror the other party's consequences doesn't change their individual responsibility to avoid their individual consequences.
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I disagree the female is in the driver seat in this case so more of the responsibility is with her.

It is her body and her life that will be affected the most. Which is the prime argument on abortion, her body her choice.

The guy still is at fault but the larger responsibility is with the female.

The guy has no right to complain about child support however unless he was lied to or tricked and then the argument on child support is still weak.
 
Anung Un Rama said:
I agree with just about everything you’re sayin, ither than the pregnancy part. I think the woman has more of a responsibility to prevent the pregnancy. And to be clear, I’m not equating responsibility to blame.
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I know you're not equating responsibility to blame. I simply disagree that the responsibility isn't equal. As I said, the basis for the unequal argument appears to be that the woman has to carry the child or choose to abort it. But that speaks only to the woman's consequences from getting pregnant. It completely ignores his consequences.

His consequences are that he might be stuck with the financial burden of a child he doesn't want or lose out on a child that he does want. His consequences thus necessitate that he exercises similar responsibility to prevent the pregnancy with the wrong woman.

If he doesn't care either way then he can act as he wishes. If she doesn't care either way then she can act as she wishes. But they both have to decide pre-pregnancy if they care about the potential outcomes. She has no greater responsibility to prevent pregnancies that she doesn't want than he has to prevent pregnancies that he doesn't want.
 
oldshadow said:
If they were so concerned about women's health why did they not just stop abortions and stay open to do all the other things they say they do for women.
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Because their funding was cut.

PP already didn't receive any federal funding for abortion services, but their non-controversial services were dependent on federal funding.
 
Anung Un Rama said:
From a legit poster I may have put more effort into clarify my position, like i did with @panamaican just a bit ago, but he's obviously just jumping to conclusions to save face. Nothing in my post history suggests that I hate woman. Nothing in that post is controversial. Unless you hate men and think that they are mostly responsible :D

And I love a good gif, I'm pretty damn good at using them, too, if I do say so myself, but homer is obnoxious with spamming of gifs. You know they removed one from the emojis because he overused it, right? And he's a hypocrite with his standards for how the WR should operate.
He'll spam emojis gifs and then tell people to leave a thread if he doesn't agree with them.
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Nah dude. He mostly gifs trolls and idiots who deserve it and your "mostly" post got an approp response. Plus he has replaced that last gif with a hamburger and bounce across the street to crack gifs. Talk about making lemons into lemonade!!!

But I'll bow out, I just see this as another JVS thing. You are all smart guys and people cant always get along, u 2 should just reset IMHO.
 
Kafir-kun said:
I see what you're saying about the man's culpability but the fact of the matter is its the woman's body, not the man's, and she ultimately, should she have access to an abortion, has the final say on whether she carries the baby all the way. So as far as I'm concerned she should bear most of the culpability, you know what they say about great and responsibility.
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And are you saying that the man should never care what choice she makes or how the legal system responds to her choice? He should be indifferent to the outcome. He shouldn't care if she aborts a child that he wanted? And he shouldn't care if he's paying child support for a kid he didn't want?
 
oldshadow said:
I disagree the female is in the driver seat in this case so more of the responsibility is with her.

It is her body and her life that will be affected the most. Which is the prime argument on abortion, her body her choice.

The guy still is at fault but the larger responsibility is with the female.

The guy has no right to complain about child support however unless he was lied to or tricked and then the argument on child support is still weak.
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So 2 equal people both equally agree to engage in unprotected sex. But the woman is responsible for deciding if their mutual decision might turn into a pregnancy. Therefore the man's input on post-pregnancy choices should be disregarded since he's consented to all possible outcomes?
 
This anti-abortion stance really pisses me off, it's outdated and backward. For fuck's sake, why can't people just allow the females to have control over their own bodies and their lives, and not someone else?
Let's not care about the life of the females, let us only have sympathy for a fetus that isn't a fully formed human being which isn't capable of feeling pain until the third trimester.[ i'm sure that will be disputed.]
Yeah, the females involved aren't important at all, they are obviously evil, heartless, bitches from hell!
 
I never understood the GOP stance on abortion, as I tend to lean right but am hardcore, pro abortion as they come....

And no, not b/c I care about women's rights specifically per se (i'm not even sure how Roe v. Wade interpreted this under the Right to Privacy tbh), but I don't want to fund the lifestyles of poor people. The more abortions you have, the less people you have mooching (and well just not being born into bad situations w/ worthless parents)....

The GOP should be the abortion bandwagon driver
 
panamaican said:
So 2 equal people both equally agree to engage in unprotected sex. But the woman is responsible for deciding if their mutual decision might turn into a pregnancy. Therefore the man's input on post-pregnancy choices should be disregarded since he's consented to all possible outcomes?
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The people are not equal in this case and will not be equal legally even after the child is born.

This is one support for it bringing a women's choice in abortions.
 
sniper said:
I can't get behind supporting abortion on the basis that its needed to save a womans life... shouldnt she not have gotten pregnant in the first place?
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generally they find out later.
 
oldshadow said:
The people are not equal in this case and will not be equal legally even after the child is born.

This is one support for it bringing a women's choice in abortions.
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The people are equal pre-sex and pre-pregnancy. At that point, they have equal responsibility to preventing a pregnancy that they don't want. Because they both understand the consequences of a potential pregnancy. THe woman understands that her body will change and she will have to decide on keeping or not keeping it full term. The man understands that the woman's body will change and he will be tied to her choices.

For the man, if he doesn't want to be tied to her choices then he has a responsibility to avoid getting her pregnant. That's 100% on him.

To use a grisly example: How many men have killed pregnant girlfriends and/or lovers to avoid dealing with a pregnancy. Are you saying that those men had less responsibility to avoid a pregnancy that they would kill over than the woman did? That it was actually more her responsibility to avoid getting pregnant by a dude who couldn't afford to have his indiscretions become public than for him to avoid getting her pregnant?
 
My wife is from Germany and our son was born in the U.S. There was a minor complication and my wife was in the hospital for 2 days after the birth. When we found out what the complication was and told her mom (who is a nurse in Germany), she said "If that happened in Germany, you would both be in the hospital for at LEAST a month. Just to make sure everything was ok."

In Germany - Make sure Mother and child are both healthy, then send them home AND send a nurse to check on them both to make sure.

In America - Screw you, get out, we've got cheese to stack.

(My wife and son are both happy and healthy. I pray for those who just get tossed.)
 
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panamaican said:
The people are equal pre-sex and pre-pregnancy. At that point, they have equal responsibility to preventing a pregnancy that they don't want. Because they both understand the consequences of a potential pregnancy. THe woman understands that her body will change and she will have to decide on keeping or not keeping it full term. The man understands that the woman's body will change and he will be tied to her choices.

For the man, if he doesn't want to be tied to her choices then he has a responsibility to avoid getting her pregnant. That's 100% on him.

To use a grisly example: How many men have killed pregnant girlfriends and/or lovers to avoid dealing with a pregnancy. Are you saying that those men had less responsibility to avoid a pregnancy that they would kill over than the woman did? That it was actually more her responsibility to avoid getting pregnant by a dude who couldn't afford to have his indiscretions become public than for him to avoid getting her pregnant?
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Yes I'm say it's more her responsibly but that he still bears plenty of responsibly in the situation.

She will be affected the most and have more decision that she alone will make.

The guys is still a shit head if he complains or doesn't live up to his end because he could have prevented it.

But she has the most control in the situation and the most to gain or lose.
 
oldshadow said:
Yes I'm say it's more her responsibly but that he still bears plenty of responsibly in the situation.

She will be affected the most and have more decision that she alone will make.

The guys is still a shit head if he complains or doesn't live up to his end because he could have prevented it.

But she has the most control in the situation and the most to gain or lose.
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So, if a guy kills a woman because her pregnancy would ruin his life, it was still more her responsibility to avoid the situation even though the pregnancy wouldn't have ruined her life?
 
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