The Definitive "HANDS UP!" Thread

[KarateStylist]

You know what? How about those of you who want to fight with your hands at your waist keep doing that. Then guys that understand the need for hands being up can continue to hit you.

(See Cung Le with his hands up vs Frankin with his hands down, then his face down too).

: )

Granted I'm f*ckin with the hands at the waist guys a bit--but Devante can attest to what I'm speaking of.

Protect your f*ckin chin. End of story.

End of your story. Cung Le, a TMA by base, is well-known to have adopted the boxing cross-training route....

By that, he executed perfectly against Franklin....

KarateStylist

 

[nakmuay84]

some internet nerd with 6 months of training should teach petrosyan, masato, souwer and buakaw how to keep a guard:







srsly, what's good for boxing is not necessarily good for kickboxing, and vice versa.
there's no one good way for everyone and for every sports.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Now why is this thread get bumped again? I thought this discussion is done and over with
EDIT: and lol at the first statement too.

 

[BomberMan]

Parrying, catching, slipping, weaving etc should all be in sync for an optimal defense, but the importance of these skills are not an excuse for you to keep your hands down. "Hands up is a lazy form of defense", that's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Parrying, catching, slipping, weaving etc should all be in sync for an optimal defense, but the importance of these skills are not an excuse for you to keep your hands down. "Hands up is a lazy form of defense", that's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

If that's the case, then these legends must be really really wrong then.

The hands up is a lazy form of defense because it was the inception of big gloves that bought to it and how many use it in place of positioning and footworks. However, as Sinister often said, it is a valid form of offense in the hands of those who understood that it is not to prevent self from being pummel, it is to hurt the other guy.

 

[Discipulus]

some internet nerd with 6 months of training should teach petrosyan, masato, souwer and buakaw how to keep a guard:







srsly, what's good for boxing is not necessarily good for kickboxing, and vice versa.
there's no one good way for everyone and for every sports.

Point taken. It should be noted that just about none of those fighers but Askerov uses their hands as their primary form of defense, and Buakaw quite often drops his.

But hey, this internet nerd doesn't need to teach Buakaw how to hold his hands. Why not let his forebears do it?

Samart:

Saekson:

Somrak:

Or that guy they say used to beat him up in training? Namsaknoi:

Parrying, catching, slipping, weaving etc should all be in sync for an optimal defense, but the importance of these skills are not an excuse for you to keep your hands down. "Hands up is a lazy form of defense", that's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

Then you didn't read carefully enough. My point was not that it is lazy to keep the hands high. My point was that using "covering up" as a primary means of protecting your head from punches is lazy, and allows a lot of fighters to get too far into their career before facing someone competent enough to find all the holes in that defense. And then, having focused on using their gloves to block punches in training, they KTFO because they haven't adapted the proper sense of distance, position, and timing to actually defend themselves.

 

[nakmuay84]

discipulus, i wasn't thinking of you with the "internet nerd". I don't even know how long do you train

anyway... almost NOBODY uses the hands as a PRIMARY form of defence. Positioning, footwork, timing, avoiding etc... are important. Look at petrosyan, he's the best defence in the game.
My point was, everybody in the MT/k1 game keeps their hands up somehow (chin level, temples). Why? because it's not boxing, and i think a boxer (or a wanna be boxer) should not teach a MT guy how to fight MT and vice versa.

and why don't you post videos instead of static pics? those fighters DO use their hands to protect their face, just like they use all the other defensive tools.

 

[Discipulus]

discipulus, i wasn't thinking of you with the "internet nerd". I don't even know how long do you train

anyway... almost NOBODY uses the hands as a PRIMARY form of defence. Positioning, footwork, timing, avoiding etc... are important. Look at petrosyan, he's the best defence in the game.
My point was, everybody in the MT/k1 game keeps their hands up somehow (chin level, temples). Why? because it's not boxing, and i think a boxer (or a wanna be boxer) should not teach a MT guy how to fight MT and vice versa.

and why don't you post videos instead of static pics? those fighters DO use their hands to protect their face, just like they use all the other defensive tools.

Chin level is fine. I don't see the need for hands at the cheeks or higher. And it's notable that none of those guys carry themselves with their hands really close to their face. Usually at least one hand is well out for measuring distance and engaging the opponent's own hands. It's not unreasonable not to have seen it in this massive thread, but earlier on Jukai and Da Speeit mentioned that "hands out" is infinitely better than "hands up."

Again, since it probably got lost in the morass, I'll say that for the purposes of this thread, a high guard is one of the super tight, gloves glued to your forehead variety. If you watch my videos, you'll notice I almost always have my right hand ready to cover my chin and defend punches. But my primary focus is on either moving, or not being there to be hit in the first place.

You're right about Petrosyan. He rarely needs his hands to block, because he has amazing reactive defense--good head movement, good footwork--the works. He also stands hunched over with his weight heavy on his lead foot, so I wouldn't recommend trying to emulate his style, as not everyone is going to be able to have his reflexes, and then they will end up having to rely on their hands covering their head for protection.

 

[BomberMan]

If that's the case, then these legends must be really really wrong then.

The hands up is a lazy form of defense because it was the inception of big gloves that bought to it and how many use it in place of positioning and footworks. However, as Sinister often said, it is a valid form of offense in the hands of those who understood that it is not to prevent self from being pummel, it is to hurt the other guy.

Did i say holding your hands low has no place in boxing? All i said is that the notion that holding your hands up to protect your chin is lazy is the stupidest thing i have ever heard from anyone who trains in a gym. That's the most basic thing you'll learn in any gym/school, be it muay thai or boxing. Which trainer will tell guys who just started training "okay guys i want you to keep your hands low, just look at guys like Joe Louis and SSR, i want you guys to have a stance like that". Hell no, the first thing you learn from any coach is to keep your hands up!

I think you and the TS got things in reverse, if you don't even have the basic discipline to start off keeping you hands up, i don't see how you'll be able to become proficient in the more advanced defensive techniques later on, master the basics 1st.

You guys mentioned fighters who over rely on a high guard and struggle later on when facing tougher opposition who can exploit that, well on the flip side if you look at someone like Yuriokis Gamboa who is a freak of an athlete, top notch reflexes, speed, power etc. Early on in his career he fought with his hands at his waist and was still knocking guys out. But when he stepped up in competition, he started getting knocked down due to his recklessness. Even someone like a Gamboa realizes that having his hands up is important, this is evident from his more recent fights with his guard way up, of course once in a while he still enjoys showboating and keeping his hands low, BUT he has become so much more defensively responsible by simply keeping his guard up.

I have nothing against guys that hold their hands low, in fact i enjoy watching fighters with styles like that, i.e. RJJ, Gamboa, Hamed etc.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

Did i say holding your hands low has no place in boxing? All i said is that the notion that holding your hands up to protect your chin is lazy is the stupidest thing i have ever heard from anyone who trains in a gym. That's the most basic thing you'll learn in any gym/school, be it muay thai or boxing. Which trainer will tell guys who just started training "okay guys i want you to keep your hands low, just look at guys like Joe Louis and SSR, i want you guys to have a stance like that". Hell no, the first thing you learn from any coach is to keep your hands up!

I think you and the TS got things in reverse, if you don't even have the basic discipline to start off keeping you hands up, i don't see how you'll be able to become proficient in the more advanced defensive techniques later on, master the basics 1st.

You guys mentioned fighters who over rely on a high guard and struggle later on when facing tougher opposition who can exploit that, well on the flip side if you look at someone like Yuriokis Gamboa who is a freak of an athlete, top notch reflexes, speed, power etc. Early on in his career he fought with his hands at his waist and was still knocking guys out. But when he stepped up in competition, he started getting knocked down due to his recklessness. Even someone like a Gamboa realizes that having his hands up is important, this is evident from his more recent fights with his guard way up, of course once in a while he still enjoys showboating and keeping his hands low, BUT he has become so much more defensively responsible by simply keeping his guard up.

I have nothing against guys that hold their hands low, in fact i enjoy watching fighters with styles like that, i.e. RJJ, Gamboa, Hamed etc.

Uh no, ever since i receive instructions from Sinister, i don't think he ever told me to keep my hands up as a basic to defend myself (the common definition of hands up anyway - hands at chin level and such) But we use our own definition of hands up - rear hand at upper rib level and lead hand at mid rib level.

And you'd be surprise on how difference MY basic vs YOUR basic is. Read on my threads and you will know why.

 

[Discipulus]

Dude, no. RJJ and Prince Naseem do not fight anything like the old-schoolers that Nuke mentioned. Completely different.

 

[BomberMan]

Uh no, ever since i receive instructions from Sinister, i don't think he ever told me to keep my hands up as a basic to defend myself (the common definition of hands up anyway - hands at chin level and such) But we use our own definition of hands up - rear hand at upper rib level and lead hand at mid rib level.

And you'd be surprise on how difference MY basic vs YOUR basic is. Read on my threads and you will know why.

I was talking about your very first trainer you ever had, did they not advocate the importance of having a high guard? If not, then well forget everything is said and treat it as gibberish (which you probably already have).

It's evident from your responses to other posters telling you to keep your hands at a more respectable level that you're pretty adamant on a low guard style, well i can only respect your decision and wish you all the best in training and hope you master this particular style of fighting even though i personally disagree with it. Hopefully, in the future you can post videos of your fights.

 

[BomberMan]

Dude, no. RJJ and Prince Naseem do not fight anything like the old-schoolers that Nuke mentioned. Completely different.

Of course they have very different styles, old timers didn't have the swag

But seriously, i was in no way saying that fighters like Jack Johnson had similar styles to someone like RJJ, that's just retarded. I was simply saying i enjoyed watching fighters who are a little reckless/ ****y who have the audacity to hold their hands low even against elite competition.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I was talking about your very first trainer you ever had, did they not advocate the importance of having a high guard? If not, then well forget everything is said and treat it as gibberish (which you probably already have).

It's evident from your responses to other posters telling you to keep your hands at a more respectable level that you're pretty adamant on a low guard style, well i can only respect your decision and wish you all the best in training and hope you master this particular style of fighting even though i personally disagree with it. Hopefully, in the future you can post videos of your fights.

They did, but it is misguided. The importance of high guard as defense is a modern mistake. Do you really think that old school guys with their small gloves and bareknuckles hand relied on high guard? NO. With hands like that keeping high guard is a strategic suicide. The high guard only works to a degree because of the big gloves modern boxing have. Take that out and you will see the utter uselessness of high guard as a mean for defense. Of course, that also took away the offensive capabilities of high guard too, sadly.

Yes, i am adamant about my low guard style (geezus, it is not even THAT low) because i know it WORKS. I use my footworks and positioning to take care of my head while let my hands comparatively low to facillitate offense. And i never said i won't EVER use high guard either. I will only use it as a mean to HURT the other guy. It is simple as that, not for defense.

Of course they have very different styles, old timers didn't have the swag

But seriously, i was in no way saying that fighters like Jack Johnson had similar styles to someone like RJJ, that's just retarded. I was simply saying i enjoyed watching fighters who are a little reckless/ ****y who have the audacity to hold their hands low even against elite competition.

Under that logic, any other boxers who use positioning/footworks, fight against elite competition and let their hands compratively low = someone who is ****y and reckless.

And as a last note, everything i am learning is basic fundamental of boxing. You basically said that you disagree with BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF BOXING.

 

[BomberMan]

They did, but it is misguided. The importance of high guard as defense is a modern mistake. Do you really think that old school guys with their small gloves and bareknuckles hand relied on high guard? NO. With hands like that keeping high guard is a strategic suicide. The high guard only works to a degree because of the big gloves modern boxing have. Take that out and you will see the utter uselessness of high guard as a mean for defense. Of course, that also took away the offensive capabilities of high guard too, sadly.

Yes, i am adamant about my low guard style (geezus, it is not even THAT low) because i know it WORKS. I use my footworks and positioning to take care of my head while let my hands comparatively low to facillitate offense. And i never said i won't EVER use high guard either. I will only use it as a mean to HURT the other guy. It is simple as that, not for defense.

Under that logic, any other boxers who use positioning/footworks, fight against elite competition and let their hands compratively low = someone who is ****y and reckless.

And as a last note, everything i am learning is basic fundamental of boxing. You basically said that you disagree with BASIC FUNDAMENTALS OF BOXING.

So shouldn't you utilize these big gloves that modern day boxing have since that is what we wear in compeition? Wouldn't that be the most optimal way to train if you're training boxing? Big glove, small glove, either way, a high guard, incorporated with good head movement, foot work and defensive techniques is still the most ideal style for most people, but maybe you're different?

Under what logic? I named 3 fighters as examples, RJJ, Hamed and Gamboa, are these guy's not ****y when they fight? In which part of what i said states that any fighter who has his hands low is automatically a ****y fighter? All i said is that i enjoyed watching fighters with a certain style, and those fighters happen to have their hands low. Jesus do you have to be so goddamn defensive against every single poster that disagrees with you?

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

So shouldn't you utilize these big gloves that modern day boxing have since that is what we wear in compeition? Wouldn't that be the most optimal way to train if you're training boxing? Big glove, small glove, either way, a high guard, incorporated with good head movement, foot work and defensive techniques is still the most ideal style for most people, but maybe you're different?

Under what logic? I named 3 fighters as examples, RJJ, Hamed and Gamboa, are these guy's not ****y when they fight? In which part of what i said states that any fighter who has his hands low is automatically a ****y fighter? All i said is that i enjoyed watching fighters with a certain style, and those fighters happen to have their hands low. Jesus do you have to be so goddamn defensive against every single poster that disagrees with you?

The problem is that the high guard should not be use for defensive purpose. That's all i'm saying. It is a part of modern boxing repetoirs, yes it is another tool in the tool box, but it should be use for correct purpose as an offensive tool, not a defensive tool. As a defensive tool, like the thread had discussed, have many drawbacks and limitations.

For your later part, i'm just simply interpret your train of thought in a different way . I know damn well you don't mean that. So sorry if that made you mad :wink:

 

[Gregolian]

While I get that some guys like the low guard for the added movement/they can relax some it just seems like one of those things (this might be a logical fallacy so I am sorry ahead of time if this is wrong) that when you are young... it's fucking great. However, it also seems like one of those tendencies that when you get older, and your reflexes begin to slow or your chin becomes shot that it will just leave you out on a silver platter to get stomped.

Like RJJ is one that comes to mind as a guy that got away with having a low guard for a long long time and did well. And then he started getting "over the hill" as an athlete and we have all seen what happened. I know there are older guys like Vitali (41) can get away with it but most of them have a jab so damn nasty that it keeps people away/scare to swarm in it seems.

Again, I might be looking at this the wrong way but it seems when you start out learning and such to start with a higher guard (chest-chin level so to speak, not necessarily up by the temples) so that when your reflexes begin to slow there is an option of a more protective style to fall back on.

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

While I get that some guys like the low guard for the added movement/they can relax some it just seems like one of those things (this might be a logical fallacy so I am sorry ahead of time if this is wrong) that when you are young... it's fucking great. However, it also seems like one of those tendencies that when you get older, and your reflexes begin to slow or your chin becomes shot that it will just leave you out on a silver platter to get stomped.

Like RJJ is one that comes to mind as a guy that got away with having a low guard for a long long time and did well. And then he started getting "over the hill" as an athlete and we have all seen what happened. I know there are older guys like Vitali (41) can get away with it but most of them have a jab so damn nasty that it keeps people away/scare to swarm in it seems.

Again, I might be looking at this the wrong way but it seems when you start out learning and such to start with a higher guard (chest-chin level so to speak, not necessarily up by the temples) so that when your reflexes begin to slow there is an option of a more protective style to fall back on.

The thing about RJJ is that he relied too much on athleticism than actual technicality. This obviously failed him later on.

And then there are guys like Sugar Ray Robinson and Bernard Hopkins. Their style have old school boxing principals printed all over it as foundation and it carried them into old ages. Particularly SRR have +200 fights as a whole in his career, yet still able to be competitive when he became an "over the hill" athlete. He's a great example of how techniques can help perverse your health in the long run, even in a brutal sport such as boxing. These styles of boxing are not grounded on reflexes. I don't think i ever seen SRR cover up in a high guard, in fact. Positioning and footworks is what made him P4P the best of all time.

Personally, I don't want to be a RJJ later on, i'm not even a good athlete for crying out loud, which is why i focus on big time on foundational stuffs. Sadly most of the times people view my style of boxing is "gimmicky" and "niche".

I understand the talk about starting our in a higher guard because it sounded logical, but the thing is that every style of boxing have its own foundation. It is not like people can learn high guard first and try Mayweather style. That's just absurd. This is crucial because without proper foundational knowledge, you will never be good boxing.

 

[BomberMan]

The problem is that the high guard should not be use for defensive purpose. That's all i'm saying. It is a part of modern boxing repetoirs, yes it is another tool in the tool box, but it should be use for correct purpose as an offensive tool, not a defensive tool. As a defensive tool, like the thread had discussed, have many drawbacks and limitations.

For your later part, i'm just simply interpret your train of thought in a different way . I know damn well you don't mean that. So sorry if that made you mad :wink:

Well guy we will just have to agree to disagree then in the benefits and limitations of a high guard as a defensive tool. I know that most people fight with a style that is unique to them, and who am i to say what style works for you or not, i really hope you can develop one that works for you.

Hey man it's cool, it's easy to get into heated arguments in these forums, like how you got into heated exchanges against douchebag during sparring

 

[Scythegpd**]

They did, but it is misguided. The importance of high guard as defense is a modern mistake. Do you really think that old school guys with their small gloves and bareknuckles hand relied on high guard? NO. With hands like that keeping high guard is a strategic suicide. The high guard only works to a degree because of the big gloves modern boxing have. Take that out and you will see the utter uselessness of high guard as a mean for defense. Of course, that also took away the offensive capabilities of high guard too, sadly.

Except that's only part of the story.
During the era of smaller gloves (and bare-knuckle), shots to the head/face were far rarer. This was due to the possibility of injury to the hands then punching for the head. Compared to today the vast majority of attacks were to the body.
Therefore, because there was a minimal risk of getting punched in the face, they did not need to have their guards as high as they were looking more to protect the body. It's that simple, low risk of getting a punch to the face, less need to protect the face.
With the advent (and introduction) of the "newer" gloves, shots to the head/face increased dramatically because, and this is important, your could punch for that area with a minimal risk of hand injury. As such the "hands-low" guard of old started to fall out of favour towards a higher guards because there was a new risk.

Similar to the way a boxers stance is different to a thai fighters as boxers don't have to worry about being kicked. And a thai fighters stance is different to a MMA fighter as thai fighters don't have to worry about takedowns.
Small/no gloves ==> very few shots to the head ==> minimal need for high guard
Larger gloves ==> increase in shots to the head ==> guard lifted

The fact is you can't be knocked out by a punch to the chin if they can't hit your chin. Now you can talk about movement and positioning all you like but, at some point, you WILL meet someone who has better movement/positioning, you WILL meet someone who is faster, you WILL fatigue and slow down, someone WILL get an unexpected shot in. And, at that point, if your glove is between his fist and your chin, you're not going to get knocked out by a punch to the chin, because the glove will deflect the blow.
However if you're so adamant that a hands-down approach is the way to go, go right ahead with it. But when one of the above happens and your chin gets lit up then have fun watching the stars.
Personally I dislike the VERY high guard (like the peek-a-boo guard) as I feel it has too much impact on your visibility. However I firmly advocate at least having your hands chin-height as an insurance policy.

But then again it's whatever works for you and what you've been taught. If you're happy with a guard below your chin then, for want of a better phrase, knock yourself out. I prefer my gloves at least chin height, it's also the guard that is taught by my coach (who, in his time, was a world-level muay-thai fighter). If you disagree, so be it.

Then again, there's also the variables in style depending on what you have to defend against, hence why boxing, thai, tkd, MMA and so on have different postures and defensive stances.
At the end of they day, find what works for you and stick with it. Clearly nobody is going to change your mind however Id' have thought, by now, that you'de have realised you're not going to change anyone elses mind, no matter how many times you repeat the same things.
It's almost as if, at this stage, you just want the last word, as if that will somehow mean your opinion is right because you flogged the dead horse for longer than anyone else.