The Dems Don't Get It: How liberalism without a spine gave way to a party without a brain or soul

[panamaican]

It was an interesting read and I'd imagine, for those who support the left and the Democrats, it has some hard truths worth exploring.

One intriguing takeaway was how you could easily read this as a paean against PC speech. Additionally, I think it's something they should actually do. In attempting to stake themselves to a moral high ground, they have perhaps lost their ability to clearly communicate their big picture philosophy, whatever that may be.

 

[Andy Capp]

Compared to mainstream left wing parties in other developed countries. Even the UK Labour party, which was itself considered right wing in this same sense, has taken a turn to the left under Corbyn if I'm not mistaken.

Of course compared to the GOP they're left but which mainstream party in a developed country isn't?

Stuff like drag queens reading to kids, the excesses of PRIDE parades, rejecting any sort of standards when it comes to sexual promiscuity. You also got stuff like this

Spoiler

Sorry, but there is no way I can consider a drag queen reading to kids (implying they are inherently offensive), or pride parades, or puritanical whining about other people's promiscuity, to be degeneracy. The degeneracy I worry about is politicking via meme.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Sorry, but there is no way I can consider a drag queen reading to kids (implying they are inherently offensive), or pride parades, or puritanical whining about other people's promiscuity, to be degeneracy. The degeneracy I worry about is politicking via meme.

Okay.

 

[lifelessheap]

The government is too big and it constantly is making itself bigger. Why do we need Homeland Security? They are redundant and and a black hole of tax payer money.

HS employs 230,000 people. We lived just fine without them before 9/11 and if we needed more investigators we could have grown the FBI. Homeland Security has been found to be paying employees for stretches longer than a year where the employee doesn't even go to work.

There is no accountability, and no government branch cares to cut costs and be efficient. Because it isn't their money.

There is just so much waste and corruption and the monster just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

 

[Andy Capp]

Okay.

Edit: perhaps I wasn't clear about what I was getting at.
Please tell me in what way considering a transgender person a degenerate is based upon some objective measure of their quality as a human being, rather than a self-imposed moral stance based upon a preconception having nothing to do with the character of the person upon whom you're passing judgement. I'm trying to wrap my head around how you decide who is a degenerate and how it relates to being left wing.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Please tell me in what way considering a transgender person a degenerate is based upon some objective measure of their quality as a human being, rather than a self-imposed moral stance based upon a preconception having nothing to do with the character of the person upon whom you're passing judgement. I'm trying to wrap my head around how you decide who is a degenerate and how it relates to being left wing. To me, a great example of a degenerate is Mitch McConnell.

Drag queens are traditionally adult entertainers, not appropriate to expose to children IMO. A Hooter's waitress may not be a bad person but I don't want one reading to kids.

And we know its the left that endorses this kind of activity. Not all leftists do(I don't and I consider myself a leftist) but in a general sense its the left that identifies with these causes. If you want to argue that its the right that wants to normalize the LGBTQ community to kids then by all means be my guest.

Not exactly a fan of Mitch McConnell either of course, he does much more damage to the country than some random drag queen reading to kids which I why I said I still vote for Dems.

 

[Trotsky]

I already noted the reason the metaphor excuse is bullshit is because you have openly supported violent acts in your previous posts and openly support dictators who used violent means to push their politics ergo its entirely reasonable you were being ridiculous yet again. Strange i know how past behavior often shows a strong indication of what ones future and current behavior is. Pleeeease by all means lower your well educated brain to the level of us mere mma forum posters and grasp this.

And while you're at it you can also explain how the Maga hat boy is a shitty person and how being indifferent to violence against a teenager is a sensible position? It's amusing how you avoided this entirely. Yet agann You have a habit of just tuning out various criticisms of your beliefs and vanishing from the conversation. I wonder why that is?

And no this is no attempting at diverting. I am highlighting how your argument is flawed from its core due to your own constant bias and crude form of thought.



I've been critical of Communism and in particular some of the leaders you attempted to praise as the " good ones" due to their totalitarian and violent nature as well as your outright ignorance on their propaganda they have spread in various areas to show that they have left their countries in a better state.

Further I am obviously critical of your blatant partisan bias and espousing violence as a tool in politics.

So given these two things how exactly does that make me a conservative under any sense of the word?
I want an actual direct answer from you on this not another case of Trotsky done fucked up and will pretend like it didn't happen. As of right now you're not different that the hard righties who throw "socialist!" around haphazardly at anyone who disagrees with them.





Why? So you can go on one simple rant like you always do that amounts to little more that
" Ah thats rubbish you haven't read as much as I have on the matter!" Look what you already did with attempting to brush off the Ford/ Kavanaugh fiasco. That alone is a cause for Democrats to self reflect on their party. And you did it again with "Oh it's laughable to say Hillary is as bad as the republicans."

I remember you even creating these talking points that amounted to little more than Hillary wouldn't have done this and this and this like Trump and one included her not fucking with the unions. Even though she has an outright history of doing just that Lol! And unions endorsing her in this run caused rifts among them. So its no small wonder you think shes not as bad when you are outright ignorant on her past behavior and are too proud to admit you are.

This is no different than when other posters here noted it was nonsensical of you to praise Che and call him a good person when hes advocating nuclear war and playing judge,jury,and executioner with his political rivals. Or when actual god damn Cubans from god damn Cuba tell you the health care for the common man is shit there.

You just shut down, hurl the same tired insults, vanish from the discussion etc,etc. And again this highlights what is wrong with the Democratic party and politics in general. There is a complete lack of being able to admit when one is wrong and then changing it.

As for being intimidated dear Trots no just no. Theres nothing scary about a lawyer on a karate forum who somehow can't compose himself well enough to keep from being dubbed and put in time out. Hilarious would be a more fitting word than intimidating.

So eleven paragraphs just to (i) refuse to actually explain or clarify your three lone (purportedly) substantive criticisms, (ii) double down on the hysteria that you chose to engage in about a single sentence, and which you used to run away from the actual matter of discussion, (iii) deflect to some irrelevant story from last year where a kid had a hat stolen and I was sufficiently outraged, and (iv) bitch and whine about revolutionaries that died half a century ago and try to dress up your whining as being validated by ambiguous "other posters."

For you to so brazenly refuse to engage in substantive discussion, I would usually assume that you are trolling. But it's pretty obvious that you're just very emotional, unhinged, and not particularly bright.

I liked your rant. Had to pull up here though. Tackling immigration concerns with a wall and easing economic anxiety by renegotiating trade deals isn't policy? Maybe I'm outside the definition here.

Maybe "coherent policy" would be more apt. Trump had no coherent policy on either of those matters, since on immigration net migration across the border had been negative for a decade and, on trade, he immediately realized he didn't know what he's talking about and tried to reenter TPP.

Along with those issues, gun rights and abortion are also used to coat a policy platform that is unapologetically terrible and geared only toward helping the ultra rich and taking years off the political life of the country.

Healthcare and Infrastructure will get undecided voters on board. The message should be relentless.

Healthcare isn't quite as cut-and-dry as you seem to imply. Polling shows that, as policies get zeroed in on and explained, support for single payer/MFA deteriorates. And Republicans' big scary price tag fear mongering will be extremely effective.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Maybe "coherent policy" would be more apt. Trump had no coherent policy on either of those matters, since on immigration net migration across the border had been negative for a decade and, on trade, he immediately realized he didn't know what he's talking about and tried to reenter TPP.

Cool.

I'm on record saying the wall is dumb and I don't know what's in the trade agreements that could be improved upon. But what I do know about agreements is there's usually room to improve one's side of things.

 

[Sivo The Ram]

dude, if you are really riding that hard for a political party (one which doesnt give a shit about you), then you really are a bitch. i will never understand you crazy political fanatics

 

[lifelessheap]

Cool.

I'm on record saying the wall is dumb and I don't know what's in the trade agreements that could be improved upon. But what I do know about agreements is there's usually room to improve one's side of things.

Hillary is on record saying we are in need of a physical barrier because illegal immigration is such a big problem.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Hillary is on record saying we are in need of a physical barrier because illegal immigration is such a big problem.

Who?

 

[ocfightfan]

Libs are still pissed about us freeing their slaves. SMH.

 

[ocfightfan]

You are right that the Dems don't get it, but not for the reasons you think. Giving regular people the finger while selling us out to the elite, domestic weirdos, and foreigners, then expecting us to just be okay with it is what they don't get.

 

[Trotsky]

Hillary is on record saying we are in need of a physical barrier because illegal immigration is such a big problem.

When she was saying that illegal immigration was at an all-time high and increasing.

Since then, net migration has been negative (more people leave via the border than arrive) for a decade and border removals were raised to an all-time high.

Spending tens of billions of dollars, plus additional billions on annual policing and maintenance costs, for a border with negative net migration numbers is the epitome of a stupid and wasteful policy.

 

[Oeshon]

liberalism with a spine = facism/totalitarian state

I personally prefer my authoritarian dickfarts on the left to remain spineless.

 

[whougonnacall]

The issue with the Democratic party is that at its core its a center-right party with leftists voting for them merely because there isnt any other option.

This has been ongoing in the west for years , left parties are slowly sold out and their elite members as right wing as any of their rivals ....the rich slowly own both sides
The difference being the left parties cant abandon their base altogether so focus on peacemeal redistrubution of power/wealth or focus on social issues instead

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

So eleven paragraphs just to (i) refuse to actually explain or clarify your three lone (purportedly) substantive criticisms, (ii) double down on the hysteria that you chose to engage in about a single sentence, and which you used to run away from the actual matter of discussion, (iii) deflect to some irrelevant story from last year where a kid had a hat stolen and I was sufficiently outraged, and (iv) bitch and whine about revolutionaries that died half a century ago and try to dress up your whining as being validated by ambiguous "other posters."

For you to so brazenly refuse to engage in substantive discussion, I would usually assume that you are trolling. But it's pretty obvious that you're just very emotional, unhinged, and not particularly bright..

You created a long winded rant of an op simply to state the republicans are shit and no longer have any qualms about openly being shit which if stating the obvious and then you merely dropped a "metaphor" and then stated its "us against them" you didn't even present a sensible way to grow a spine that is allegedly missing from the party.

All i did was pointed out how biased and hypocritical you are being and you ran away from this entirely. Bringing up your past attitudes is apparently now irreverent and now you are outright resorting to lying about what you stated in regards to maga boy..

You say we need to fight the fascists yet you praise fascists who support your political views and have remarked that one is even a hero in your mind. Further you are one of posters who loves to peg people as "partisan hacks" yet you want to do away with bipartisanship now.

It is evident lies are fine as long as they are your lies, fascism is fine as long as its your brand of fascism, and hypocrisy is a lovely concept so long as it benefits you.

You want me to expand on my original points on what the Dems need to fix but as i noted you immediately want to scoff at them as apparently this vague spine growing theory of yours is more important than say coming to the realization that backing an accusation of rape with no substantial evidence is a pretty shitty thing for any party to do.

I'll tell you what. I've asked you multiple times and you avoided it but again, explain to me why I am apparently a conservative. I feel this is yet another highlight of how immediately bias and irrational your thought process tends to be. Do so in a mature logical manner free of your name calling and pretending like the idiocy on this board is so insufferable to you and then we can establish a dialogue in bigger detail in regards to spine growing and my perceived failures of the Democrats. In fact i would prefer if your response addressed nothing but this.

 

[Ice That Jaw]

Healthcare isn't quite as cut-and-dry as you seem to imply. Polling shows that, as policies get zeroed in on and explained, support for single payer/MFA deteriorates. And Republicans' big scary price tag fear mongering will be extremely effective.

It depends who you ask. People who can't acquire good healthcare will benefit from single-payer in every possible way. It's the 25 or 30% of folks who have good care now that will stand to lose quality. It's all about trade offs.

My grandfather was a B-17 pilot in WWII and after the war, his guilt led him to abandon his family and he lived the last 50 or so years of his life in Sweden. He needed a gallbladder operation and was put on a 2 year waiting list. Sweden has exactly the type of healthcare system that we want. Long story short. He had to pay for the surgery out of pocket. Not ideal.

 

[NC252]

For (at least) ten years now, the Republican Party has had no legitimate political goals. Far removed from the days when some meager attempts at good faith policy making (see: George W. Bush's policies on retirement plans) occasionally interrupted windfalls for the wealthy and powerful, the party has now fully embraced its villainy and relished in the fact that its supporters don't really care. From being an opposition party concerned only with obstructing a country in recovery from their latest robbery, they are now a party in power that is blatantly, shamelessly, and (perhaps to their own shock alone) expeditiously working to enrich themselves, enable corruption, rip off normal American people, and dismantle any semblance of a functional democratic government that represents everyday citizens.

Yet, despite the Republicans' complete lack of good faith policy, their impeccable status as a global pariah and symbol for corruption, and their historically unpopular leadership, the Democrats have failed to even brush past a coherent oppositional message. Too concerned with retaining the appearance of civility and bipartisanship that the Republicans left cold in a ditch years ago, the Democrats have repeatedly floundered when faced with an opponent without such concerns or preoccupations with rightfulness.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/07/democrats-trump-health-care-chantal-mouffe

​

The Republicans learned long ago that, even if you are not fighting for anything that is worth having to your supporters, so long as you are fighting you will win support. This could not have been more apparent than during the 2016 election when, despite the Republican Party and its to-be leader Donald Trump having zero substantive policy or remote interest in it, they were able to bludgeon their wisely pragmatic and endlessly poised liberal foes.

Now, two years later, the Republican Party has shed any lingering pretexts about being a "conservative" party. They will break budgets, they will openly suppress votes, they will openly cannibalize the government toward the interests of their corporate benefactors, they will freely abandon any notion of truth or honesty, they will swindle consumers and workers, and piss on children and the most vulnerable among us.

This is the Republican Party, and they are the enemy. They represent wealth. They represent power. They represent wealth and power in reaction to the democratic will of the people. They are fascists. And you don't reason with fascists or applaud and pamper them when they have fleeting moments of integrity (or feign such moments as is customary for disingenuous cunts like Jeff Flake). You call them fascists, you shine a spotlight on them, and you kick them in the teeth.

It's us versus them. And we aren't friends.

Get your army of sissies and rejects and bring it on tough guy.

 

[jrams]

liberalism with a spine = facism/totalitarian state

Or they could just stand-up to giving everything away to corporate America, actually fight for middle class America, and stop being pro war. Bernie kind of has a spine and he's not really fascist.