The government/flag, is not America

[jonharrison]

I'm fine with that definition, but the key is that it is a symbol that represents ideals as you say. So if we as a nation are in violation of those ideals, burning a flag should be the least of our protest.

Right, but aren’t ideals pretty much unattainable? Ideals are goals you set that are out of reach, but cause you to strive to do better. I certainly don’t think that protesting the flag, or burning it, should be illegal, but I’m not really sure I see the point to be honest. Outside of a couple anarchists who believe that all nations should be totally abolished, I haven’t really met anyone who is opposed to this geographic area being a country called “The United States of America”. People can argue about individual practices and policies of the nation, but to attribute those attributes to a flag is silly. It would be like if the governor of your state passed legislation that you opposed, so you burned the state flag on the capitol grounds. It’s well within your rights, but what’s the point? It doesn’t solve anything. You’ll still be living in the state after you burn the flag, so why waste the energy on it rather than work to change the legislation you disagree with?

 

[jonharrison]

More and more I am seeing that Americans do not even agree on what American ideals are. So the flag is a symbol of our country, but what our country stands for is up for individual interpretation.

I have seen people wave the flag while expressing what I consider completely anti-American ideals.

In the end, I just don't feel moved by symbols. Symbols are meaningless, the only meaning they have is attached by real people. Just look at the Swatztika, and the history behind that symbol. The Nazis completely hijacked that symbol from the Hindus. Now I have seen neo-Nazis waving American flags, and nobody is less American than a Nazi.

I am very patriotic. But not over American symbols, I am patriotic about American ideals and American people. I will stand up every time the national anthem plays and stand quietly out of respect for American people who believe in that symbol (the flag, the song). But it's just a flag. I am more concerned with making sure our government doesn't hijack that symbol and make it stand for something immoral.

I guess I’m more curious why Viva assumes that the flag is representative of our government? In his original post he states that protesting the flag is to protest our foreign policy, but to me the flag just represents “being American”, whatever that means to you. It’s subjective to your own views and beliefs. If people want to protest the flag, that’s their prerogative, but it seems silly to me that they would attribute the views of others to it, and then protest those views manifest in a flag, rather than the actual people who hold the views themselves.

 

[Quipling]

I'd hit Ivanka so hard she'd call me Daddy

This works on so many levels.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Right, but aren’t ideals pretty much unattainable? Ideals are goals you set that are out of reach, but cause you to strive to do better. I certainly don’t think that protesting the flag, or burning it, should be illegal, but I’m not really sure I see the point to be honest. Outside of a couple anarchists who believe that all nations should be totally abolished, I haven’t really met anyone who is opposed to this geographic area being a country called “The United States of America”. People can argue about individual practices and policies of the nation, but to attribute those attributes to a flag is silly. It would be like if the governor of your state passed legislation that you opposed, so you burned the state flag on the capitol grounds. It’s well within your rights, but what’s the point? It doesn’t solve anything. You’ll still be living in the state after you burn the flag, so why waste the energy on it rather than work to change the legislation you disagree with?

Yeah for sure. I am fine with all that.

The point I am attempting to make here has to do with flag worship, and authority worship.

Respect for the flag is fine and well.

It's when it goes beyond respect, to zealotry that it is a problem. When people start conflating the flag, or the government as America itself.

 

[MicroBrew]

'Rights and Freedom' - is that why you and I went over there? As I recall it had to do with 9/11 and terrorists.

Well Af-Pak was for 9/11. Iraq was for Israel's benefit.

 

[Phr3121]

Well Af-Pak was for 9/11. Iraq was for Israel's benefit.

Fuck Israel, Iraq was for the oil.

 

[MicroBrew]

Fuck Israel, Iraq was for the oil.

Nope , oil was a secondary issue. It was primarily about reshaping the MiddleEast for Israel's benefit. Look at all the people who orchestrated and pushed for the War, it is the Israel firsters/NeoCons.

And the US didn't even get Iraq's oil. China was granted the fist contract.

In the run up to the Iraq war, all the liberals kept bleeting about "no war for oil" ignoring the elephant in the room (Israel) because liberals did not want to get accused of being anti-Semitic and because Jewish Americans are mostly liberal and major supporters of liberal causes and the Democrat party.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Nope , oil was a secondary issue. It was primarily about reshaping the MiddleEast for Israel's benefit. Look at all the people who orchestrated and pushed for the War, it is the Israel firsters/NeoCons.

And the US didn't even get Iraq's oil. China was granted the fist contract.

In the run up to the Iraq war, all the liberals kept bleeting about "no war for oil" ignoring the elephant in the room (Israel) because liberals did not want to get accused of being anti-Semitic and because Jewish Americans are mostly liberal and major supporters of liberal causes and the Democrat party.

Honestly, you cant really boil it down to one thing. I understand the impulse, as I am sure I have argued as such before, but it really was about 20 different things. Israel, oil, Petro dollar, saudi, iran, ECT.

Is there one of these issues if removed from the equation results in the US not invading Iraq? Maybe, but it is all speculation.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

We seem to have alot of people who worship symbols and authority.

Sad but true.

 

[Phr3121]

Nope , oil was a secondary issue. It was primarily about reshaping the MiddleEast for Israel's benefit.

This is the first time I've heard of Israel being a reason for the U.S. to invade Iraq. I don't think the U.S. Congress would approve of young American men and women dying for the sake of Israel. Specially when Israel is not being attacked. That makes zero sense to me. The version (propaganda) played to Americans in 2003 was 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'. There was another version about how Saddam tried to assassinate Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. was going in for the 'kill'. The U.S. can reshape the Middle East through Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. Syria and Lebanon pose a greater threat to Israel. Why not invade Iran?

 

[helltoupee]

That is the first time I've heard of Israel being a reason for the U.S. to invade Iraq. I don't think the U.S. Congress would approve of young American men and women dying for the sake of Israel. Specially when Israel is not being attacked. That makes zero sense to me. The version (propaganda) played to Americans in 2003 was 'Weapons of Mass Destruction'. There was another version about how Saddam tried to assassinate Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. was going in for the 'kill'. The U.S. can reshape the Middle East through Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. Syria and Lebanon pose a greater threat to Israel. Why not invade Iran?

At the risk of sounding like an anti-semite, which I'm not, I don't think it's a coincidence that Bush's administration was filled with pro-Israeli lobbyists, and pledged to pro-actively secure Israel at any cost when he took office.

 

[Phr3121]

I don't think it's a coincidence that Bush's administration was filled with pro-Israeli lobbyists, and pledged to pro-actively secure Israel at any cost when he took office.

Ah, that has been going on for years. Since the birth of Israel in 1948. Jewish influence in the U.S. Congress is huge. That is just a fact. Nothing to do with being anti semitic. The Israelis also stole U.S. Uranium back in the mid 1960s (nuclear power plant) to start their own nuclear program, but they won't admit to it.

 

[GOATER]

Totally agree OP.....This reminds me of Middle School.

Me and my White/mexican fried(He was really white, looked white, only knew english, etc, he experienced lots of racism in that Mostly Mexican school).......Anyways we use to say Mexico's government sucked, which is fucking true....One day my friend got a pin that said "Mexico Sucks", he was talking about the GOVT....Anyways a cholo kid saw it and started being a fucking cunt to him. My friend responded by saying he was only talking about the Mexican govt....Eventually the school principal told him to take off the pin lol.


It's sad but I hate this mentality of "America #1 no matter what!" or "support our wars no matter what!" or the most I hate is "Republican/Democrat no matter what"....These people are truly cucks IMO.

 

[MicroBrew]

Honestly, you cant really boil it down to one thing. I understand the impulse, as I am sure I have argued as such before, but it really was about 20 different things. Israel, oil, Petro dollar, saudi, iran, ECT.

Is there one of these issues if removed from the equation results in the US not invading Iraq? Maybe, but it is all speculation.

Israel was the leading cause, just look at who was involved in pushing for the war. The Israel firsters were so confident in wrapping Iraq up fast, they even boasted about going after Iran next. Their hubris was their undoing, because Iran undoubtedly noticed their threats, which would have been 1 reason for Iran supporting Iraqi militias that were making life hard for the US.

 

[ultramanhyata]

I have no real world deployments.

But thank you for your VR service.