The knee thread!

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by shincheckin, Jun 28, 2018.

  1. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    @AndyMaBobs

    Not trying to "prove you wrong" but I would say that I disagree with being shorter as a advantage in a clinch. For striking, I think being the taller opponent gives you and advantage everywhere, including the clinch.

    I get the lower COG concept, but I dont think it applies as much to the MT clinch, as it does to grappling sports where takedowns are legal as @Uchi Mata has mentioned. MT clinch is all about remaining upright/tall, and to defend knees, we get as close as possible the joke is "dick to dick", when you get this close, you cannot be kneed straight or the side, it does open you up for the throw at the hips though.

    I do agree with you that wrestling and clinching are more similar than most people think, I can even relate BJJ to "clinching on the ground", also one of my old coaches, who is a MMA coach but knowledgeable on MT, refers to the clinch as "neck wrestling"

    One of my friends and old regular training partners, is very tall for his weight. And much taller than me of course. But he is an MMA fighter, because of his crouching MMA style he really takes away from his reach advantage, anyways, I dont have much of a problem dominating him in the clinch, and also getting those MT sweep/throws at the hip on him due to his height, but thats more because he just doesnt know how to clinch rather than me having a advantage for being shorter. If we take guys that are shorter and dominate clinch fighters I think this is the reason why.

    @ARIZE "You can make it work, and you can be very good at it, not thanks to been shorter, but despite of it."

    I have fought guys that were exactly 3 inches taller than me, it made a difference in strikes as far as reach with punches, and that I could only kick body or legs but not head. Not much of a difference in the clinch, but thats because thats my thing. Shorter guys are very easy to knee, specifically with that straight knee.

    however rather then all of us debating on who has a advantage for being short vs tall, lets keep this thing going with more techniques etc. Lets try and show what to do in the clinch if you are shorter.
     
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  2. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

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    @shincheckin

    I'm usually the shorter one, because i don't like to weight cut much, but every now and then, when I fight a shorter guy, a lot of things seem easier. Reach, kicking high easier, knees, but also more powerful elbows, and of course, better control in the clinch.

    The one thing I may give for the shorter guy advantage, is the straight knee inside the clinch. I find that the shorter guy has to make a smaller gap to throw it. But the straight knee inside the clinch is very rare, specially from a level and up...

    There is not really a debate.. I'm right and Andy is wrong as usual...
     
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  3. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    <Lmaoo>
     
  4. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    That's only sort of true though. Clinching is a form of standup grappling, but without the threat of the level change, the legality of hip throws, and with striking being the main goal, the dynamics are almost totally different. I've wrestled and I was an AAU junior national champion in Judo, and while that helps me a lot with hand fighting and positioning in the clinch the sort of positions you're trying to achieve are not the same. Frankly it's better for me as a tall guy because all the worries about short stocky dudes getting in on my hips or under my COG for a throw are basically gone, and I can just frame, whip, and blast knees to the ribs all day. In every grappling art you're ultimately looking to take away space to attack and that has a lot to do with how you grip and move, in the MT clinch you're generally looking to create space in a favorable manner to throw strikes which is harder for the shorter armed guy. All this is not to say that you can't be somewhat shorter and excel in the clinch, just like tall guys can be badass inside boxers, it's just not going to be the thing that naturally fits the body type matchup.
     
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  5. Silver tongue samurai

    Silver tongue samurai Ronin

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    Caught a left kick and countered with a switch knee to the gut and dropped a guy in sparring today. Thanks sherdog knee thread!
    {<redford}
     
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  6. aerius

    aerius Black Belt

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    I have wrestled in my youth, did 4 years of it when I was in high school. There's definitely some carryover between wrestling and Thai style clinch work, but I've found it's mostly in understanding how grips work and how to use them to control posture. Most of the takedowns used in wrestling (trips, suplexes, lifts, crackdowns, etc.) are illegal in Muay Thai, and those are the moves where a shorter fighter has the advantage.

    So basically you're left with various throws & sweeps from double underhooks or over/under, and from over/under the taller fighter will have the leverage advantage along with more striking options. In double unders the shorter fighter will have an advantage, but he better act fast before his opponent jams a forearm in his face and frames off to break posture and deny him the leverage for clinch throws, either that or he frames off and follows up with an elbow to the face. Unless you're a sweep specialist like Superbank you're going to have a hard time in the clinch against taller fighters, and even Superbank doesn't have a fun time in extended clinches.

    For a shorter fighter to do well in the clinch he needs to create constant movement & transitions, he cannot allow the taller fighter to secure a good grip on him. If they have equal grips, the shorter fighter will lose most of the time unless there's a large skill disparity. It can be done, but it's harder work for the short guy.
     
  7. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    nice!

    add a push, switch kick after that
     
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  8. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

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    Andrew rules, Arize drools.

    But aside from that lets do more knee posting
     
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  9. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    hey guys, new knee topic.

    Lead leg knee, without switching, and still having power. Interested to hear your guys thoughts before I spew mine <45>
     
  10. AndyMaBobs

    AndyMaBobs Brown Belt

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    I never use the technique for anything other than a mobility drill - I'm sure someone out there uses it but I've never given much thought to it
     
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  11. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

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    If we talk straight knee, I've probably never throw one of that kind in my life either. I cannot feel it. Maybe it just needs training, but I don't think I need it in my life... No power, no reach.

    If we talk side knees, you are probably in a clinching stance or at least halfway there, so the strike is not a pure lead leg one, it's already half loaded. Those ones I've used a bunch.
     
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  12. aerius

    aerius Black Belt

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    Lead knee, no switch, with power.
    I don't know, I can't really see it unless it's a flying knee.
     
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  13. TheMachinegun12

    TheMachinegun12 White Belt

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    Power starts from the back leg which drives the hip into the knee/punch/kick. So it's not something in my textbook. However if the occassion occurs and if it's a viable option in a given situation. Why not ?

    Also if your stance is not too wide you can switch in a split of a second and throw a proper knee with your 'previous lead leg'
     
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  14. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    @AndyMaBobs @ARIZE @aerius

    So Im pretty much on board and agree with you guys as well. Not much power without a switch, probably never really a need to ever use it, etc. That being said you can use it and there is a way to put some power into it as well, but its more about timing than anything. So for the technique of it, its similar to lifting the knee and the popping the hip, lean back, and also try and pull the guy into, think more along the lines of the guy running into combined with being pulled into your raised knee, that you then pop. Its when hes coming forward, similar to a defensive teep. I have never used it in sparring, I used it once in a fight. You can see it here at about 0:46. This fight was a old fight with pads but I feel its the best I have ever fought. The guys name is Jonas also lol, and was assitant coach at Cobans Gym and had a ton of Sak Yant Tattoos, this made me nervous to fight him. I trained very hard I also had lots of friends/family there to support me so I feel it was all these reasons combined for why I performed my best. im getting off topic here but so much of fighting is mental as well, I think its good to talk about them and train them, Its one of the reasons Cus d'amato was one of the greatest coaches of all time. Its something often overlooked.

     
  15. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    As long as were not confusing wide stance, with square stance, than I agree with you
     
  16. TheMachinegun12

    TheMachinegun12 White Belt

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    I have been taught stance like this:
    [​IMG]

    With the backfoot pointing towards the opponent. This makes your hip squared to the opponent which helps driving it in. How do you guys do it in muay thai. Is it different per gym ?

    I stumbled upon this kendo video by coincidence that also happened to implement it and explain the reason behind it very well:

     
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  17. ARIZE

    ARIZE Blue Belt

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    @shincheckin
    That was a nice one... BUT, i think the power came from you pulling and bending him into it, while moving backwards. Also, it's a upward knee, and not a spearing knee.
    I can feel the power in that situation, but it's a very specific scenario.
    Nevertheless, it was a good knee. I would probably had half switched it to throw it in that situation, maybe loosing the best timing.
    Oh, and I also liked the jumping one before that...
     
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  18. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    yeah thats exactly it, the timing would be like a defensive teep. and you lean back and pull into it, while popping the hip. it has to be done while they are coming forward/you going backwards otherwise theres no power at all, its more like them falling onto your knee, rather than you striking with the knee. Its a weird strike that will almost never be used except for same random moment like this one. Thanks dude, this fight, he was traditional thai style, so it made a really good fight between the two of us, and he tried to play clinch with me so it was great. Hes a cool guy, i have trained with him again since our fight.
     
  19. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    The kendo footwork looks similar to fencing, it will get your leg kicked. I posted several new things in the stance thread, check it out.
     
  20. shincheckin

    shincheckin Brown Belt

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    close range knee

    [​IMG]
     

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