The Maps of Israeli Settlements That Shocked Barack Obama

[Johnny Alpha]

How can anyone claim to be an American patriot and be such a lapdog of Israel? oh the right wing hypocrites


You are being USED. Btw look at their history of terrorism and spying in the United States before you attack Russia all the time.

 

[abiG]

How can anyone claim to be an American patriot and be such a lapdog of Israel? oh the right wing hypocrites


You are being USED. Btw look at their history of terrorism and spying in the United States before you attack Russia all the time.

^^^HUGE POINTS^^^
Will fall on the deaf hypocritical ears of both the left and the right.

http://reut-institute.org/Publication.aspx?PublicationId=541

Extent of Israeli withdrawal - The first article of Resolution 242 is an object of controversy because of differences in wording between the English and the French versions of the text. The English version talks about Israeli withdrawal "from territories...", while the French version talks about Israeli withdrawal "from the territories" (des territories...). Thus, the addition of the word "the" in the French version implies that Israel is required to withdraw from all the occupied territories.

Now, on to my other points and questions... can you address them please.

Now you want to argue the word "the" in the translation.

Listen, I've done enough for you here. You continue to miss giant points and move goalposts. The Palestinians accepted two states twice and everything else is zionist bullshit.

And of course it is ALL the occupied territories, otherwise we are back at a war crimes trial. Have you not been reading along? You cannot transfer occupied land stolen in war to the occupying power. It is war crime, period.

My solution? Like it matters. I have laid it out before. One democratic state with equal rights for all. This should be achieved in front of the eyes of international observers and needs to be implemented by an international peace keeping force. But, of course, prior to any lasting solution, the occupation must end and the refugees must be given their human rights, their right of return that is guaranteed all other refugees in this world.

 

[jeffk]

Olmert propsed a palestinian state on 93 of the west bank and swap about 5 percent of land and remove all settlers beyond the 5 percent swap area. 100 percent of gaza and a safe passage from the west bank to gaza with no security check points.

Abbas wanted less area swap.

The question of borders other than the old city are....well were...not far off. The demand of right of return and details of Jerusalem are much tougher. The Palestines have been promised for too long thdy will have this right but israel will never allow millions if refugees into israel in a deal. Jewish israelis do not want to become a minority in a middle eaxtern state. And this demand of a right of return is being sold as an inalienable right and part oc the Palestinian identify. If is is seen as a bargaining chip in an overall deal , a deal can be reached with new leaders. If it is an inalienable right thzt cannot be negotiated, this conflict will continue with any new leadership.

 

[abiG]

Olmert propsed a palestinian state on 93 of the west bank and swap about 5 percent of land and remove all settlers beyond the 5 percent swap area. 100 percent of gaza and a safe passage from the west bank to gaza with no security check points.

Abbas wanted less area swap.

The question of borders other than the old city are....well were...not far off. The demand of right of return and details of Jerusalem are much tougher. The Palestines have been promised for too long thdy will have this right but israel will never allow millions if refugees into israel in a deal. Jewish israelis do not want to become a minority in a middle eaxtern state. And this demand of a right of return is being sold as an inalienable right and part oc the Palestinian identify. If is is seen as a bargaining chip in an overall deal , a deal can be reached with new leaders. If it is an inalienable right thzt cannot be negotiated, this conflict will continue with any new leadership.

Right, and this is why the right in America is so heated over this open borders agenda here. The left wants to make them all legal and have them vote democrat. It's ridiculous. And these same idiots are worried about Russia fucking up our elections.

Palestine is the best example in modern history of what happens when massive immigration goes unchecked. For some reason, though, when the Europeans are the immigrants, both the left and the right go silent.

 

[jeffk]

Jews were not accepted as Europeans. Thd early zionists saw that there were potential problems for jews in Europe.

But the random borders and promosing too much to different people by Europeans in the middle east has caused issues.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

Now you want to argue the word "the" in the translation.

Listen, I've done enough for you here. You continue to miss giant points and move goalposts. The Palestinians accepted two states twice and everything else is zionist bullshit.

The word "the" is the difference between the 67 and 48 borders so yes it matters. 1988's deceleration had absolutely no chance of being accepted so it was a great gesture and a step forward but that's all.

And of course it is ALL the occupied territories, otherwise we are back at a war crimes trial. Have you not been reading along? You cannot transfer occupied land stolen in war to the occupying power. It is war crime, period.

Who had a right to the land pre-48 war, the British? The Ottomans? There was no nation in Palestine at the time, it was a region. Obviously there were Arabs living on the land who were at first Ottoman subjects then became part of British Mandatory Palestine. This is much more complex than you are stating.

My solution? Like it matters. I have laid it out before. One democratic state with equal rights for all. This should be achieved in front of the eyes of international observers and needs to be implemented by an international peace keeping force. But, of course, prior to any lasting solution, the occupation must end and the refugees must be given their human rights, their right of return that is guaranteed all other refugees in this world.

That would be ideal but with their history and the extremists on both sides I can't see that happening soon. I'm wondering what Trump's "Deal of the Century" is going to include, it sounds like an Egypt-Gaza free trade zone with the West Bank and Gaza formally being split.

 

[abiG]

Who had a right to the land pre-48 war, the British? The Ottomans? There was no nation in Palestine at the time, it was a region. Obviously there were Arabs living on the land who were at first Ottoman subjects then became part of British Mandatory Palestine. This is much more complex than you are stating.

I explained this in post 47:
Your post comes from a script. It is known as 'hasbara.' Israel spends a fortune on creating an image for the world that has nothing to do with reality and tries to make herself seem like the poor, innocent victim, when nothing could be further from the truth.

That whole thing is based on the false notion and the early zionist mantra of "a land without a people for a people without a land." Beyond that, it is abhorrent to deny the existence of these people, mostly Arab-Muslims, some Arab-Christians and even a small group of Arab-Jews.

If you honestly believe that Palestine never existed and these people are an Arab talking point, then you are crazy. Go read the TREATY OF PEACE WITH TURKEY SIGNED AT LAUSANNE which was signed on July 24, 1923. For reference, he document is more commonly called "the Treaty of Lausanne" And then go read the Palestinian citizenship order in council of 1925. The dates are important.

And if you're not a reader, which I'm sensing, but still care to understand how wrong your contention truly is, then take a few minutes and check this out:



So, the fucking irony on: This is much more complex than you are stating.

That would be ideal but with their history and the extremists on both sides I can't see that happening soon. I'm wondering what Trump's "Deal of the Century" is going to include, it sounds like an Egypt-Gaza free trade zone with the West Bank and Gaza formally being split.

The deal was financial support in return for shutting the fuck up and living as second class citizens on their own land.

 

[Voodoo_Child906]

I explained this in post 47:
Your post comes from a script. It is known as 'hasbara.' Israel spends a fortune on creating an image for the world that has nothing to do with reality and tries to make herself seem like the poor, innocent victim, when nothing could be further from the truth.

That whole thing is based on the false notion and the early zionist mantra of "a land without a people for a people without a land." Beyond that, it is abhorrent to deny the existence of these people, mostly Arab-Muslims, some Arab-Christians and even a small group of Arab-Jews.

If you honestly believe that Palestine never existed and these people are an Arab talking point, then you are crazy. Go read the TREATY OF PEACE WITH TURKEY SIGNED AT LAUSANNE which was signed on July 24, 1923. For reference, he document is more commonly called "the Treaty of Lausanne" And then go read the Palestinian citizenship order in council of 1925. The dates are important.

And if you're not a reader, which I'm sensing, but still care to understand how wrong your contention truly is, then take a few minutes and check this out:



So, the fucking irony on: This is much more complex than you are stating.

Looking at the Levant at the time the people are extremely close in all major facets, with of course a few regional differences:

Ethnicity - Majority Arab with spatterings of Persian, Turkish, Greek and others

Language - Levant Arabic with local variations and colloquialisms

History - The region and the people were defined by the kingdoms/empires that occupied the land. The region had the same Canaanite/Isrealite, Babylonian, Persian, Hellenist, Roman, Mamluk Sultanate, Umayad Caliphate, Ottoman Empire periods. There was obviously a little variation but for the most part the history is shared.

Religion - Majority Sunni Arab with spatterings of Christianity, Shia and others.

I don't see a distinct Palestinian identity, at the time period. If anything I would call them Levantine Arabs.

The deal was financial support in return for shutting the fuck up and living as second class citizens on their own land.

The Gazans will be in an Economic Free Trade zone with Egypt with heavy investment. It will most likely be a better life than the hell they are facing now.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

viva what would be your solution to this issue, give me a possible/probable solution, not some pie in the sky I wish solution.

I would carve out a nice piece of land in jordan that borders on israel and saudi arabia. This will give palestine a place to call their own and lead to peace in the area.

 

[ocfightfan]

@Voodoo_Child906, @ocfightfan

Neither of you have responded to any questions or points. This series of moving goalposts goes nowhere. I honestly do not believe that either of you know anything relevant on this topic. Your posts speak to this.

VC,

1) The zionists will NEVER accept what I think you are referring to as the '48 borders. If you understood this topic at all, you would know this.

2) Once you start talking about the '67 borders, you must keep in mind a couple things. There is no contiguous Palestine, for one, and we are talking transferring occupied land seized in war. Not only is that in itself clearly illegal under all known international law, it's beyond that as it is known as what we call a 'War Crime' and the regime responsible would need to be tried at the Hague for example, where the world could conduct something similar to the Nuremberg trials. Nuremberg, coincidentally, is where much of the international law in this area comes from.

3) It is not a choice between a 'Jewish state' and the state being obliterated and all land be given to the Arabs... that's just stupid and further illustrates how lost you are on this topic.

ocF,

Your post comes from a script. It is known as 'hasbara.' Israel spends a fortune on creating an image for the world that has nothing to do with reality and tries to make herself seem like the poor, innocent victim, when nothing could be further from the truth.

That whole thing is based on the false notion and the early zionist mantra of "a land without a people for a people without a land." Beyond that, it is abhorrent to deny the existence of these people, mostly Arab-Muslims, some Arab-Christians and even a small group of Arab-Jews.

If you honestly believe that Palestine never existed and these people are an Arab talking point, then you are crazy. Go read the TREATY OF PEACE WITH TURKEY SIGNED AT LAUSANNE which was signed on July 24, 1923. For reference, he document is more commonly called "the Treaty of Lausanne" And then go read the Palestinian citizenship order in council of 1925. The dates are important.

And if you're not a reader, which I'm sensing, but still care to understand how wrong your contention truly is, then take a few minutes and check this out:

LOL, hasbara means "explaining" and it's also known as good public relations. You would never fault the Arabs for giving their side of the story, but somehow when the evil Jews do it, its dirty. The Jewish connection to the land you call Palestine is not some fiction invented by 19th century Europeans. It has been documented by many sources, including enemies of the Jewish people.

Early history
The earliest mention of the word "Israel" comes from a stele (an inscription carved on stone) erected by the Egyptian pharaoh Merneptah(reign ca. 1213-1203 B.C.) The inscription mentions a military campaign in the Levant during which Merneptah claims to have "laid waste" to "Israel" among other kingdoms and cities in the Levant.

Source

Persecution of Jews, Maccabean revolt[edit]

Bust of Antiochus IV at the Altes Museum in Berlin.
The Seleucids, like the Ptolemies before them, held a mild suzerainty over Judea: they respected Jewish culture and protected Jewish institutions. This policy was drastically reversed by Antiochus IV, resulting in harsh persecutions and a revolt against his rule, the Maccabean revolt.[12]:238

Source
And where is Judea?

Judea or Judæa (/dʒuːˈdiːə/;[1] from Hebrew: יהודה‎, Standard Yəhuda, Tiberian Yəhûḏāh, Greek: Ἰουδαία, Ioudaía; Latin: Iūdaea, Arabic: يهودا‎, Yahudia) is the ancient Hebrewand Israelite biblical, the exonymic Roman/English, and the modern-day name of the mountainous southern part of the region of Palestine. The name originates from the Hebrew name "Yehudah", a son of the Jewish patriarch Jacob/Israel, and Yehudah's progeny forming the biblical Israelite tribe of Judah (Yehudah) and later the associated Kingdom of Judah, which the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia dates from 934 until 586 BCE.[2

As far as the Palestinians go I don't deny their existence in the sense that there are acutal people who call themselves that, or the fact that the region was referred to as Palestine for a long time. But there has never been an independant country called Palestine and there is no unique Palestinian language and culture. The modern Palestinian political identity is an invention of the 20th century. Prior to there were a small number people who were designated or identified as Palestinian but it was never considered a national identity.

"Before the Balfour Promise (i.e., Declaration) when the Ottoman rule ended (1517-1917), Palestine's political borders as we know them today did not exist, and there was nothing called a Palestinian peoplewith a political identity as we know today, since Palestine's lines of administrative division stretched from east to west and included Jordan and southern Lebanon, and like all peoples of the region [the Palestinians] were liberated from the Turkish rule and immediately moved to colonial rule, without forming a Palestinian people's political identity."
[Official PA TV, Nov. 1, 2017]

<iframe src="https://www.memri.org/player/clip/12389/1/1" width="960" height="540" frameborder="0"></iframe>

As Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad speaking on Al-Hekma TV said in March 2012: “Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis. Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called Al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians…”

PLO leader Zuheir Mohsen tells the truth in 1977 about the invention of "Palestine" as part of the struggle against Israel: "The Palestinian people does not exist. ... In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan ... cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

The word Palestine is derived from Syria-Palestina which was coined by the Roman Emperor Hadrian after crushing the Jewish Bar Kokhba revolt. He combined the Roman ruled provences of Judea and Syria and changed the name in an effort to disconnect the Jews from the land. Palestina is a Latinization of the word Philistia which is the land occupied by what Hadiran's scholars thought were the Jews greatest enemies from history, the Philistines. Oddly enough the name Philistine is derived from the ancient Hebrew word Peleset which means foreigner or wanderer. I presume this was an epithet that the ancient Hebrews applied to the Sea Peoples who invaded from the Aegean and occupied Israel as well as attacked other places like Egypt around the same time. This particular group disappears from history sometime before the rise of the Neo-Assyrian Empire between 10th-7th century B.C.E.

As far as your point about the Treaty of Lausanne and the Palestinian citizenship order, I'm not impressed. Palestine had been taken away from the Ottomans but was not a country. It was what it had been since the Greeks ruled the area, an administrative region with troublesome people. The British were busy fumbling around and trying to keep a lid on things while the Arabs were rioting and massacring Jews.

I could do more but this post is long enough. Now again, tell me what you envision and what you think the outcome will be. I dare you.

 

[ocfightfan]

Anti-Israel Arab nationalist Christian Azmi Bishara in a pre-1996 video.
Translation: "Well, I dont think there is a Palestinian nation at all. I think there is an Arab nation. I always thought so and I did not change my mind. I do not think there is a Palestinian nation ... When were there any Palestinians? Where did it come from? I think there is an Arab nation. I never turned to be a Palestinian nationalist, despite my decisive struggle against the occupation. I think that until the end of the 19th century, Palestine was the south of Greater Syria."