The Wisdom of Hand Foot Foot Hand Head

Ghost in the Dark

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as per Islamic traditional punishments for theft.


Firstly, I have no ethnic link to Islam or Arabia.


Secondly I have not studied the Koran or Islamic Culture.


Thirdly here is a link to the relevant surahs

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Amputation_in_Islam#Hadith

Please check there before specifically commenting (lol 0 chance I know).


Fourthly, specifically note that there are certain exceptions for items of very low value, war time activities etc. and I'd also advocate not amputating thieves under 18 or mentally retarded etc.


Now to give my reasoning:


Deterrent:


having parts of your body cut off is a solid deterrent to you the criminal and everyone who sees you shall be reminded of the punishment as well. Unfortunately for a lot of people fines, community service or even gaol/prison are either a weak deterrent, no deterrent at all or even desirable.


Revenge:


This is a nasty punishment and is likely to satisfy victims' and communities' desires for vengeance in a way that the above mentioned measures often do not.


Warning:


Everyone is going to know you are a thief and to look out.


Limits potential for violence:


Violent crime is definitely the kind of crime that preys on people's minds the most and without your right hand your potential to threaten and hurt people is seriously diminished.


Recidivism:


One common argument against amputation is that it means that people are then unable to work, at least in many fields, and are stigmatised. That's true but as anyone who knows anything about criminology knows the reality is that generally some people are criminals and some are not. Criminals tend to just do crime their whole lives whether they are punished or not and they also tend to escalate over time. Therefore cutting off their hand is still giving them a second (or third, or fourth) chance while prioritising the safety of the public.

The fact that the Muslims had to specify what to do with a thief you have caught for the fifth time after already cutting off both his hands and both his feet just illustrates the fact that most criminals won't stop thieving until they stop breathing.


Cheap:


The prison-industrial complex is a multi-billion industry which costs the public a fortune and makes certain capitalists a fortune. All you need for this punishment is some shackles and an axe. As per above if you are worried about taking people out of work and putting them on benefits very few of these people were earning an honest living anyway.


Difficulty of detection:


This is linked to Recidivism above. Most common-or-garden thefts are very hard to detect. Any cops on the forum can weigh in on this. Not that these are criminal masterminds we are dealing with but the volume of theft compared to the resources available for crime-fighting is overwhelming. Car thieves, muggers and burglars etc. tend to be either never caught, caught only after doing many dozens or even hundreds of crimes, or caught for something else. Then they only fess up to their crime spree as part of a plea bargain under which they are not punished for those offences. They probably never would have been caught for / matched to those crimes otherwise.

At least if when you get someone for one of these theft-based crimes they lose a hand or foot it's going to (a) be a more fitting punishment for the dozens of offences of that nature they almost certainly have committed and (b) the chance of them walking out of gaol/parole/whatever to go and commit another 50 crimes before getting picked up again is much less.


What do you think Sherdog?
 
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as per Islamic traditional punishments for theft.


Firstly, I have no ethnic link to Islam or Arabia.


Secondly I have not studied the Koran or Islamic Culture.


Thirdly here is a link to the relevant sufis

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Amputation_in_Islam#Hadith

Please check there before specifically commenting (lol 0 chance I know).


Fourthly, specifically note that there are certain exceptions for items of very low value, war time activities etc. and I'd also advocate not amputating thieves under 18 or mentally retarded etc.


Now to give my reasoning:


Deterrent:


having parts of your body cut off is a solid deterrent to you the criminal and everyone who sees you shall be reminded of the punishment as well. Unfortunately for a lot of people fines, community service or even gaol/prison are either a weak deterrent, no deterrent at all or even desirable.


Revenge:


This is a nasty punishment and is likely to satisfy victims' and communities' desires for vengeance in a way that the above mentioned measures often do not.


Warning:


Everyone is going to know you are a thief and to look out.


Limits potential for violence:


Violent crime is definitely the kind of crime that preys on people's minds the most and without your right hand your potential to threaten and hurt people is seriously diminished.


Recidivism:


One common argument against amputation is that it means that people are then unable to work, at least in many fields, and are stigmatised. That's true but as anyone who knows anything about criminology knows the reality is that generally some people are criminals and some are not. Criminals tend to just do crime their whole lives whether they are punished or not and they also tend to escalate over time. Therefore cutting off their hand is still giving them a second (or third, or fourth) chance while prioritising the safety of the public.

The fact that the Muslims had to specify what to do with a thief you have caught for the fifth time after already cutting off both his hands and both his feet just illustrates the fact that most criminals won't stop thieving until they stop breathing.


Cheap:


The prison-industrial complex is a multi-billion industry which costs the public a fortune and makes certain capitalists a fortune. All you need for this punishment is some shackles and an axe. As per above if you are worried about taking people out of work and putting them on benefits very few of these people were earning an honest living anyway.


Difficulty of detection:
This is linked to Recidivism above. Most common-or-garden thefts are very hard to detect. Any cops on the forum can weigh in on this. Not that these are criminal masterminds we are dealing with but the volume of theft compared to the resources available for crime-fighting is overwhelming. Car thieves, muggers and burglars etc. tend to be either never caught, caught only after doing many dozens or even hundreds of crimes, or caught for something else. Then they only fess up to their crime spree as part of a plea bargain under which they are not punished for those offences. They probably never would have been caught for / matched to those crimes otherwise.

At least if when you get someone for one of these theft-based crimes they lose a hand or foot it's going to (a) be a more fitting punishment for the dozens of offences of that nature they almost certainly have committed and (b) the chance of them walking out of gaol/parole/whatever to go and commit another 50 crimes before getting picked up again is much less.


What do you think Sherdog?

I think this is part of the reason why most of the middle East countries are totalitarian states.
 
This kind of punishment had its place in a pre-modern era before we could sustain large prisons. If you can just imprison people, that's generally more humane or at least provides the possibility of more humane punishment and should be preferred. So piss off with bringing this shit back unless you're some Sub-Saharan African tribal warlord or something like that, in which case hack away my friend.

On a side note its funny that in Aladdin that merchant threatened to cut off Jasmine's hand for stealing an apple when even your link points out the punishment only applied when the property stolen was of a minimum amount and explicitly exempted the theft of fruit, not to mention such a case would have to be adjudicated by some authority and not just determined on the spot by the vendor. Implicit Islamophobia IMO.
 
I think that will stigmatize and stereotype genuine amputees.

#notallamputees
 
Stopped reading as per Islamic tradition.
It was the tradition of many cultures.

Most have moved beyond that mentality thousands of years ago.
 
Chopping off hands for theft is yet one more thing Islam and Christianity have in common.
 
I've never stolen anything in my life. Simply because I am not a fucking douche. Maybe we should push strong family policies.

I look in disbelief when people leave there trash at the park. How can they be so selfish?

I want to kill people.
 
Theft isn't a major problem in the United States versus the rest of the world. If you wanted to help fix the recidivism problem you would have to address how shitty the prisons are at reforming prisoners and how society basically locks them out of even the most menial jobs after they get out of prison.

But, by all means, let's just start chopping hands off.
 
If we're going to go archaic I say bring back trial by combat much more exciting than common or garden mutilation , and we won't be misappropriating Islamic culture with the terrible modern punishment of fake outrage that would be the sure consequence of such a heinous crime .
 
Theft isn't a major problem in the United States versus the rest of the world. If you wanted to help fix the recidivism problem you would have to address how shitty the prisons are at reforming prisoners and how society basically locks them out of even the most menial jobs after they get out of prison.

But, by all means, let's just start chopping hands off.
There are some certainties in life. One of them is that people who advocate for draconian rules and punishments always have some real icky skeletons in their closet.
 
It's very reassuring you have guns.


I don't actually want to kill people. I'm actually the guy who pulls over and pushes your broken down car to the gas station. I'm the guy that holds the door for you. I am the guy who goes to the park and cleans up all the trash because I want people to be able to enjoy themselves without being surrounded by garbage. I am the guy who volunteers at the Special Olympics.

I say please and thank you. I treat people well and do everything I can to make the world slightly more enjoyable for everyone else.

And yes, I enjoy my God Given American rights and want to defend them from tyrants.
 
There are some certainties in life. One of them is that people who advocate for draconian rules and punishments always have some real icky skeletons in their closet.

They probably stole them.
 
I don't actually want to kill people. I'm actually the guy who pulls over and pushes your broken down car to the gas station. I'm the guy that holds the door for you. I am the guy who goes to the park and cleans up all the trash because I want people to be able to enjoy themselves without being surrounded by garbage. I am the guy who volunteers at the Special Olympics.
Sounds like the introduction for a very boring superhero movie.
 
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