To what extent did Ken Shamrock influence the development of 10th planet JiuJitsu?

[nefti]

Well since you are denying any connection which there obviously is, maybe personality diferences play a part as well.
I guess Eddie is just a much more chilled out dude in general with that Hare krishna/ yoga/ stoner vibe about him.
I never saw Ken roll with a girl like ever, so props to Eddie for his progressiveness.
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Ken has that intensity about him. Less 'yoga' and more just vicious so maybe that explains some of the difference in approach.
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The leg lock game has improved by leaps and bounds ( along with alot of no gi games) since kens day. Kens leg lock attacks are dated like most leg lock attacks in his time. It is not untill guys like imanari came along that started to progress the lsg lock game.

 

[yetanother]

What about 10th planet sucks specifically?[

Lockdown (trying to lock it gets you flat in half guard rather the on the side/Lucas Leite style half is insanely good so why bother), rubber guard, leg attacks from the truck, weed.

 

[ChainFlow]

Lockdown (trying to lock it gets you flat in half guard rather the on the side/Lucas Leite style half is insanely good so why bother), rubber guard, leg attacks from the truck, weed.

Lockdown is useful if you lose the underhook fight to recover some of the lost ground.

As far as leg attacks from truck:

 

[Eisenhans]

Are they doing 500 squats too?

 

[Coconutwater]

Didn't they jump onto leg locks seeing the DDS success and that their leg locks where vastly superior to the existing 10th planet stuff (which frankly sucks)

This is basically Danaher's gripe against 10th planet. He even raised the issue during an interview, he wasn't mad about it, just pointing it out since 10th planet is supposed to be a rubber-guard vehicle and bam! Suddenly they're employing a crap load more leg locks and set-ups not their own.

 

[yetanother]

This is basically Danaher's gripe against 10th planet. He even raised the issue during an interview, he wasn't mad about it, just pointing it out since 10th planet is supposed to be a rubber-guard vehicle and bam! Suddenly they're employing a crap load more leg locks and set-ups not their own.

It's a reasonable thing for them do.

 

[kpoz12]

This is basically Danaher's gripe against 10th planet. He even raised the issue during an interview, he wasn't mad about it, just pointing it out since 10th planet is supposed to be a rubber-guard vehicle and bam! Suddenly they're employing a crap load more leg locks and set-ups not their own.

By this logic, Danaher should have a gripe with HIMSELF for taking the cue from Dean Lister to "stop ignoring 50% of the human body" and then going down the leglock rabbit hole himself =^_^=

 

[Coconutwater]

By this logic, Danaher should have a gripe with HIMSELF for taking the cue from Dean Lister to "stop ignoring 50% of the human body" and then going down the leglock rabbit hole himself =^_^=

Gripe is a strong word, more like Danaher took a playful "Swipe" at 10th planet.
The difference is this.... Dean Lister was giving Danaher friendly advice...

Edgy was pushing rubber guard as THE system.

 

[Dirty Holt]

Lockdown (trying to lock it gets you flat in half guard rather the on the side/Lucas Leite style half is insanely good so why bother), rubber guard, leg attacks from the truck, weed.

Why would you go flat in rubber guard? Thats just bad technique. It would be like saying half guard sucks because it gets you flat.

 

[yetanother]

Why would you go flat in rubber guard? Thats just bad technique. It would be like saying half guard sucks because it gets you flat.

People go flat while going for the lock down not the rubber guard.
If you watch Garry Tonon vs Marcin Held he set the lock down in a different way without getting flattened.
- link for people who want to study Garry's lockdown entry

 

[DatCutman]

What about 10th planet sucks specifically?

It's a consequence of Eddie's marketing/brand image. Someone who hasn't interacted with a 10th planet gym thinks it's all weed, bad whitebelt rubber guard attempts, weed, smoke serpent playing 24/7 on an intercom, weed, low percentage win-more subs, weed, that filthy inferior gi-less jiu jitsu, weed, stretching, and 420 blaze it references.

It's easy to think this, until you meet a 10th planet dude, and rather than asking you for a clean urine sample so he can pass a drug test, he's just a normal dude. That's the reality. It's usually just dudes who like to grapple, without a gi. There's also an incentive to focus on the regenerative exercise of stretching. Skill levels are the same bell curve as any normal grappling gym. Some annoying people buy into the hype, sure. Some annoying people that buy into the "BJJ vs The World" hype too. But if we as a community can put up with Gracie Barra students, surely we can accept 10th planeteers too.

 

[yetanother]

I mostly interact with 10th planet jiu jitsu via the stuff people watch on youtube and try to do on me.

 

[Dirty Holt]

I mostly interact with 10th planet jiu jitsu via the stuff people watch on youtube and try to do on me.

I bet you would change your tune in a heartbeat if you actually rolled with legit upper belt 10p guys. I would consider myself a legit grappler and some of these guys give me all I can handle plus some. I have trained at Checkmat HQ several times, GB HQ, and with many high level world medalists. There are 10p guys who would have no problem holding their own.

 

[yetanother]

I bet you would change your tune in a heartbeat if you actually rolled with legit upper belt 10p guys. I would consider myself a legit grappler and some of these guys give me all I can handle plus some. I have trained at Checkmat HQ several times, GB HQ, and with many high level world medalists. There are 10p guys who would have no problem holding their own.

Do they actually hold their own with the signature 10th planet rubber guard/lockdowns/twisters stuff or do they use standard BJJ?
When I see let's say Geo compete most of the time he plays a completely different game then bending your own leg horribly from rubber guard or going for electric chair.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Do they actually hold their own with the signature 10th planet rubber guard/lockdowns/twisters stuff or do they use standard BJJ?
When I see let's say Geo compete most of the time he plays a completely different game then bending your own leg horribly from rubber guard or going for electric chair.

Richie Martinez uses a lot of rubber guard...

 

[Dece]

I don't think Ken had any major influence, however one of the catch wrestling basic positions is the single leg ride. I'm not very familiar with the 10th planet system but I do know Johnny Buck who is very into it. Buck explained that in 10th planet they have their position called the truck which he says it's the same ideas and concepts that catch wrestlers use while doing their single leg ride. In traditional catchwrestling calfslicers were the most common leglock. Banana split is also a popular option since it can both pin and submit your opponent.

For those who don't know Johnny Buck is one of the most active competitiors that Billy Wicks produced. Buck made it as far as bellator in his MMA career. Wicks was one of the last active carnival wrestlers.

So the truck is probably the only influence that comes from Catchwrestling. I would also l like to add that Shamrock isn't a traditional catchwrestler but rather a shootwrestler. The shootwrestlers removed the pin and opened up for other styles. Shamrock never used the calfslicers. The only catchwrestling leglocks he used was the toe holds. When we talk about leglocks the most influential person is Ivan Gomes. Gomes was brought over to Japan and was the one who brought techniques like heel hooks and kneebars. Fujiwara who was Karl Gotchs best student is the one who give Gomes the credit to bringing those kind of leglocks in and showing him how to heelhook.

Catchwrestling leglocks looks very different from the modern day leglocks we see used in BJJ. Catchwrestlers never go to their back because of the pin, lots of these modern leglocks will put you on the back and risk a pin. Calfslicers, toe holds, standing achilles locks & single leg boston crabs are the kind of leglock techniques used that won't put you on your back. Heelhooks did exist in catchwrestling and was called ankle crank, however still a rare technique.

This summer there was a match between a catchwrestler and BJJ blackbelt, however the BJJ-blackbelt Chris Thompson is experienced in both styles. The catchwrestler had zero BJJ-experience. The match had a bit of controversial ending because Chris pinned himself and lost the match while he pulled of a heelhook submission. This match shows the difference between a catchwrestling approach to leglocks. Both of them goes for leglocks. The catchwrestlers goes for a belly down achilles lock avoiding the pin, Chris went for the heelhook pinning himself.

Here's the match for those interested:



And as mentioned long time ago Eddie and Rogan made fun of catchwrestling but those attacks were aimed at Tony Cecchine who provoked a ton of people with his way of marketing his DVDs. Eddie did actually have some contact with Billy Wicks, however they never met. I would guess that when we're talking about the truck I think Billy had more influence on it that Shamrock had since Shamrock weren't schooled in the traditional catchwrestling system. I also guess that Eddie's background in wrestling helped him explore the single leg ride and turning it into the truck position.

 

[1PBCE1]

This got me nostalgic for old Shamrock fights and found this one. Not on his official MMA record but doesn't seem like a work? He slaps that guy into next week a few times, plus his sub set ups are sweet:

 

[Ultra O’Dia]

This got me nostalgic for old Shamrock fights and found this one. Not on his official MMA record but doesn't seem like a work? He slaps that guy into next week a few times, plus his sub set ups are sweet:

Seems like a work to me

 

[ChainFlow]

I don't think Ken had any major influence, however one of the catch wrestling basic positions is the single leg ride. I'm not very familiar with the 10th planet system but I do know Johnny Buck who is very into it. Buck explained that in 10th planet they have their position called the truck which he says it's the same ideas and concepts that catch wrestlers use while doing their single leg ride. In traditional catchwrestling calfslicers were the most common leglock. Banana split is also a popular option since it can both pin and submit your opponent.

For those who don't know Johnny Buck is one of the most active competitiors that Billy Wicks produced. Buck made it as far as bellator in his MMA career. Wicks was one of the last active carnival wrestlers.

So the truck is probably the only influence that comes from Catchwrestling. I would also l like to add that Shamrock isn't a traditional catchwrestler but rather a shootwrestler. The shootwrestlers removed the pin and opened up for other styles. Shamrock never used the calfslicers. The only catchwrestling leglocks he used was the toe holds. When we talk about leglocks the most influential person is Ivan Gomes. Gomes was brought over to Japan and was the one who brought techniques like heel hooks and kneebars. Fujiwara who was Karl Gotchs best student is the one who give Gomes the credit to bringing those kind of leglocks in and showing him how to heelhook.

Catchwrestling leglocks looks very different from the modern day leglocks we see used in BJJ. Catchwrestlers never go to their back because of the pin, lots of these modern leglocks will put you on the back and risk a pin. Calfslicers, toe holds, standing achilles locks & single leg boston crabs are the kind of leglock techniques used that won't put you on your back. Heelhooks did exist in catchwrestling and was called ankle crank, however still a rare technique.

This summer there was a match between a catchwrestler and BJJ blackbelt, however the BJJ-blackbelt Chris Thompson is experienced in both styles. The catchwrestler had zero BJJ-experience. The match had a bit of controversial ending because Chris pinned himself and lost the match while he pulled of a heelhook submission. This match shows the difference between a catchwrestling approach to leglocks. Both of them goes for leglocks. The catchwrestlers goes for a belly down achilles lock avoiding the pin, Chris went for the heelhook pinning himself.

Here's the match for those interested:



And as mentioned long time ago Eddie and Rogan made fun of catchwrestling but those attacks were aimed at Tony Cecchine who provoked a ton of people with his way of marketing his DVDs. Eddie did actually have some contact with Billy Wicks, however they never met. I would guess that when we're talking about the truck I think Billy had more influence on it that Shamrock had since Shamrock weren't schooled in the traditional catchwrestling system. I also guess that Eddie's background in wrestling helped him explore the single leg ride and turning it into the truck position.

To be fair, that was a BS pin call at the end. There was zero control by the opponent. Any interpretation of pinning to allow such nonsense just promotes more contempt for pinning rules among the modern sub grappling community.

 

[dmwalking]

I remember Eddie Bravo was a fan of Ken in the early days but wrote piece about how leg locks were not good and leave you open to getting countered.
Then Ken answered him and showed him a bunch of leg locks and Bravo became big into them after that. Now apparantly 10th planet emphasize foot locks.
So to what extent did Ken influence the development of Bravo and 10th planet jiujitsu?

I remember it seems a bit like the unacknowledged catch influence on Gracie JJ due to Maeda's experience fighting catch guys.

The recent emphasis on leg locks is not from Shamrock's influence. He may have changed Eddie's mind, but Eddie didn't start including leg locking as part of 10th planet until like 8 or 9 years ago. From my observation it started with Chris Herzog out of 10th Planet Rochester. He was a Sambo and Judo guy before he affiliated with 10th Planet. His influence was the catalyst. And then DDS was a secondary catalyst that influence guys to get even better at leck locks. If I'm wrong, someone correct me, but that's what I witnessed.