Training with ACL Injury ??

Kareem Mousa

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hey guys
a month ago i was rolling with my coach and my knee made a loud pop sound without any pain or any swelling
i kept on training for the following 2 weeks and every time i roll with someone my knee pops without any sort of pain
any way i went to the doctor to check it out and i found i torn my ACL and i need a surgery i dont have money for the surgery so i will wait for quite sometime.
so i just have a simple question
can i train only boxing untill i figure out what the hell am i gonna do? or am i risking making my injruy much worse ?
 
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hey guys
a month ago i was rolling with my coach and my knee made a loud pop sound without any pain or any swelling
i kept on training for the following 2 weeks and every time i roll with someone my knee pops without any sort of pain
any way i went to the doctor to check it out and i found i torn my ACL and i need a surgery i dont have money for the surgery so i will wait for quite sometime.
so i just have a simple question
can i train only boxing untill i figure out what the hell i'm gonna do? or do i risk making my injruy much worse ?

get surgery before you train on it. Boxing on it would probably be worse than BJJ.

Get health insurance and it the surgery should be covered.
 
I worked as a garbage man, did a 5K, did barbell training and fought a boxing match without an ACL. I did end up getting surgery though and we are all different. It's possible to do certains things without an ACL and many opt out of surgery for various reason. However, it's definitely not optimal and you will NOT be able to do BJJ, roll, do wrestling, kick, play soccer and so on. Anything that involves direction changes, fixated rotation of your leg and powerful deacceleration and there is a very high risk that your knee gives out (as you've already experienced). Having that happen increases your risk for tearing support ligaments like the MCL (and LCL) and injury your joint capsule. The main problem with tearing your ACL, besides not having the ligament to passively support your knee, is that the ACL holds a lot of proprioceptive cells which aids in your ability to stabilise your knee generally. You need to re-train that.

Best thing you could do would be work on leg strengthening and injury rehab in a controlled manner. Add to that overall body strength and perhaps certain cardio exercises like biking and rowing. Doing this with a physiotherapist is your best bet. You can use the time to build up your body before surgery, so you will recover better after the fact. What is the timeline for any surgery?

If you want to do some basic boxing training it's possible, but just be thoughtful. Work on technique and maybe stay away from sparring. When I was fatigued and was sparring without the ACL my knee popped a few times. Luckely I didn't have any periarticular injuries besides the ACL when I finally got surgery, but that was just luck.

Head up, and use the time to improve your body mechanics, control and stability. It might even help you in the long run. Have patience.
 
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Short answer: you will make it worse if you do, but it’s totally possible.

It’s about weighing the benefits vs risk
 
Short answer: Don't train when injured.

Long answer: Still don't train when injured.
 
To add to @Hotora86 's post: don't train when you've got a serious injury like ACL.
 
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ANY training will make it worse, as you have more uncontrolled movement in your joint. There is no muscle to compensate for a torn ACL. At best it will only lead to arthrosis.

Any athlete should opt for the surgery. Only people who dont do any sports may think about letting it heal on its own but its far from ideal.
 
ANY training will make it worse, as you have more uncontrolled movement in your joint. There is no muscle to compensate for a torn ACL. At best it will only lead to arthrosis.

Any athlete should opt for the surgery. Only people who dont do any sports may think about letting it heal on its own but its far from ideal.
Not true. The ACL passively protects against external rotation and anterior translation (forward sliding) of the tibia (shin), but as I already mentioned another important factor is the lack of proprioception after a tear. You can retrain the muscles to improve proprioceptive feedback and increase stability, even without an ACL. Added to that, various muscles can be trained to increase their protective reflexes to lessen excessive joint translation.

Yes, there will most likely be greater joint translation without an ACL, and yes there are definitely a lot of things you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT do without an ACL. With that said, there are several rehab/prehab training methodologies that not only improve you current situation, but also improves the prognosis after your operation. You recover much faster after an operation if you do a "rehab" program before, as well as after obviously.
 
Not true. The ACL passively protects against external rotation and anterior translation (forward sliding) of the tibia (shin), but as I already mentioned another important factor is the lack of proprioception after a tear. You can retrain the muscles to improve proprioceptive feedback and increase stability, even without an ACL. Added to that, various muscles can be trained to increase their protective reflexes to lessen excessive joint translation.

Yes, there will most likely be greater joint translation without an ACL, and yes there are definitely a lot of things you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT do without an ACL. With that said, there are several rehab/prehab training methodologies that not only improve you current situation, but also improves the prognosis after your operation. You recover much faster after an operation if you do a "rehab" program before, as well as after obviously.

Honestly I wont discuss that in a forum. I have treated and diagnosed enough ACL tears to know it. Just do the Lachman test and if it is positive (which it most certainly will be) this is his uncontrolled ROM. You could even look at joint movement with Ultrasound while he is walking and see it clear as day no matter how much you train his muscular status. Every non surgery ACL tear will get arthrosis and most knee training methods include a risk of damaging carthilage and ligaments (including rowing and biking). And telling him to do basic boxing oh my :rolleyes:

And if the ts writes "training" he obviously does not mean a rehab programm with which I would not have a problem with but its not the best option. Physical therapy before surgery is to get patient ready for surgery as fast as possible with 1) reduce all swelling, 2) get to full extension and 120° flexion. Then surgery and then a rehab program.

Any other recommendation besides no sports and surgery is counter productive to his long term knee health.
 
From personal experience it's not worth taking the risk when it comes to knee issues.

I've done a lot of stupid things in my years of training and I've also witnessed others do equally stupid things. Knee problems are right up there in the stupid things I've done and seen people do.

Training through any sort of injury is not worth it. Sure you might be able to train through it but there's also the possibility that your injury becomes a chronic issue or causes further problems - in your case chronic knee problems.

My advice is save up for the surgery. Pay for a sports therapist or knee specialist and get them to draft a rehab program for your knee - while you save up for the surgery.
 
Honestly I wont discuss that in a forum. I have treated and diagnosed enough ACL tears to know it. Just do the Lachman test and if it is positive (which it most certainly will be) this is his uncontrolled ROM. You could even look at joint movement with Ultrasound while he is walking and see it clear as day no matter how much you train his muscular status. Every non surgery ACL tear will get arthrosis and most knee training methods include a risk of damaging carthilage and ligaments (including rowing and biking). And telling him to do basic boxing oh my :rolleyes:

And if the ts writes "training" he obviously does not mean a rehab programm with which I would not have a problem with but its not the best option. Physical therapy before surgery is to get patient ready for surgery as fast as possible with 1) reduce all swelling, 2) get to full extension and 120° flexion. Then surgery and then a rehab program.

Any other recommendation besides no sports and surgery is counter productive to his long term knee health.
What is your profession?

Speaking of Lachmans, while it has relatively high sensitivity compared to some of the other ones you need to use them all to get a better idea. Lachmans, pivot shift and drawer. With that you still need an MRI confirmation and even then you wont have the entire picture untill athroscopy. You don't call a positive Lachmans a show of increased ROM, as ROM pertains to ostekinematics (flexion, extension so on), rather it's a sign of increased translation as it pertains to the arthrokinematics (translations, glides).

Going back to the point, would you care to elaborate how you'd risk ligament damage by rowing or biking? I don't see how the biomechanical forces would put you in any risk what so ever. OA (athritis), and in turn cartilage degeneration, is a natural occurence, but my guess is that your hypothesis is that the increased instability and joint translation would create secondary OA, which is a valid concern. The issue is that even after ACL reconstruction you are in high risk for secondary OA along with joint space narrowing (1) and the current literature does not support reconstruction as a means to minimise OA outcomes (2). The reason is in part that while ACL repair creates stability in the knee, it doesn't help prevent faulty arhtrokinematics (3), which is why the main priority is the quality of your targeted rehabilition (alignment, biomechanics, neuromuscular control, periarticular strengthening so on) AND controlling other risk factors like diet, weight and lifestyle (4).

Let's start with discussing conventional (exercise therapy alone) vs surgical interventions. Cochrane did a meta-analysis in 2016 concluding that there was low evidence to suggest that exercise therapy alone had simular outcomes on pain and KOOS (Knee injury and Osteoarthritis Outcome Score) two and five years after injury (5). Personally I believe it's important to note the nature of the injury, and also consider the patients goals and aspirations. Now, in regards to a prolonged prehabilitation program before ACL reconstruction, The American Journal of Sports Medicine did a recent cohort which showed that patients who recieved extended prehab had better KOOS scores, better function, less pain AND were more likely to return to sport at a 2 year follow up (6). They conclude that: "Preoperative rehabilitation should be considered as an addition to the standard of care to maximize functional outcomes after ACLR (reconstruction red.)".

The British Journal of Sports Medicine did a simular study last year that showed that patients who had exercise therapy or exercise therapy and then reconstruction had improved outcomes compared to those who had an immediate repair, at a 5-year follow up (7). They conclude that delaying ACL reconstruction with exercise therapy might improve diagnostic prognosis. They also stress the importance of meniscus tears and other individual factors in making a decision about rehabilitation, to which they note: "Treatment-dependent differences in prognostic factors for 5-year outcomes may support individualised treatment after acute ACL rupture in young active individuals". It is also a pretty well known fact that pre-operation quadriceps strength and activation effects post-operative function, which is another argument for exercise therapy pre-op (8, 9, 10).


TS- Sorry to have muddled the water.
1. It depends on the nature of your injury so go get an MRI if you haven't already and confer with your doctor.
2. Go to a physiotherapist and get counseling on what to do next.
 
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Can you clarify what you mean by training here?

Any training which involves leg mobility or even body mobility for that matter. So unless you're exercising your wrist and forearm with a powerball while sitting on the couch for instance or similar things, I would strongly advise any other training let alone any martial arts training.
 
Any training which involves leg mobility or even body mobility for that matter. So unless you're exercising your wrist and forearm with a powerball while sitting on the couch for instance or similar things, I would strongly advise any other training let alone any martial arts training.
That's not necessarily true though, unless I'm not understanding what you mean by "leg mobility". Normalising ROM through gradual mobility and reducing swelling to "quiet the knee" is standard care even before OP. I also refer to the post above.

With that I'm not saying that TS should do live martial arts with a torn ACL. I already highlighted some of the dangers and no-go's, but it seems like there are some misunderstandings about the nature of an ACL injury and recovering in this thread.
 
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I am a physical therapist specialized in neuroorthopaedic and shoulder treatment & clinical diagnostics.
Neuroorthopeadics? Like Functional Neuro-Orhopeadic Rehabilitation? Anyway, that looks very interesting. Functional neurology and neuroscience is fascinating, and if you include the pain matrix and autonomic nervous system I believe that's untapped potential that will hopefully be a part of standard care in the future. I did my bachelors with case studies on PCS patients uncovering dysautonomia as a part of the underlying pathophysiology of persistent symptoms. We used galvanic skin response to measure sympathetic activity after interventions, which were inspired by BBAT but modified by us. I am looking to do a study with EEGs as a both diagnostic and rehabilitation tool on the same patient group.

I am a physio too. You should read up on the literature regarding ACL rehab, keep up to date. You don't want to address any of the points? It took me a little while to put that together. Also, where are you from? Norway?
 
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That's not necessarily true though, unless I'm not understanding what you mean by "leg mobility". Normalising ROM through gradual mobility and reducing swelling to "quiet the knee" is standard care even before OP. I also refer to the post above.

With that I'm not saying that TS should do live martial arts with a torn ACL. I already highlighted some of the dangers and no-go's, but it seems like there are some misunderstandings about the nature of an ACL injury and recovering in this thread.

My point was that he should see a doctor and take it from there and avoid any form of training until then, otherwise he's just taking a gamble and could make things a lot worse than they already are.

The relevant health care practitioners will tell him what rehab programme / mobility exercises to be doing.
 
My point was that he should see a doctor and take it from there and avoid any form of training until then, otherwise he's just taking a gamble and could make things a lot worse than they already are.

The relevant health care practitioners will tell him what rehab programme / mobility exercises to be doing.
No, your statement was that anything other than sitting on his ass working his forearms or whatever was something he shouldn't do. Sitting on your ass letting your leg muscles atrophy, waiting for surgery that might be 6 months or a year into the future is literally the worst thing you could do for your prognosis. He already went to see his doctor, and most orthopaedic surgeons do not know enough about rehabilitation.

I agree that he should let a healthcare professional guide him, which I've stated many times over already. He should go see a physiotherapist, and hopefully someone who actually knows what they are talking about which is sadly not the case in this thread. I do this for a living and I know what I am talking about.
 
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hey guys
a month ago i was rolling with my coach and my knee made a loud pop sound without any pain or any swelling
i kept on training for the following 2 weeks and every time i roll with someone my knee pops without any sort of pain
any way i went to the doctor to check it out and i found i torn my ACL and i need a surgery i dont have money for the surgery so i will wait for quite sometime.
so i just have a simple question
can i train only boxing untill i figure out what the hell am i gonna do? or am i risking making my injruy much worse ?
Piggy back rides?
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