Trans Pacific Partnership - continuing the conservative assault on working people

Forget if it debunks anything, take Noam to task if you disagree with him. Is there anything he's said in there that's false or not worth saying, in your mind?

I pointed out that what Warren said was, "there are about 600 outside advisors that have access to sensitive information, and the roster includes a wide diversity of industry representatives and some labor and NGO representatives too," and what one dishonest poster summarized that as was "600 international corporations wrote the bill." That's a stunning misrepresentation, no? Chomsky said, "it's not secret from the hundreds of corporate lawyers and lobbyists who are writing the thing," which is obvious hyperbole.

I'm a big believer that clarity and honesty are the most important things. People can and will disagree, but people on every side should still make every effort to be accurate and clear about their positions. With regard to the TPP, there is a fair debate to be had, with good points on both sides, but it's not being had because people are so emotional about it (even with no substantive positions), because people are forming positions without knowing what they're talking about, and because a lot of people who do know a little about it are trying to sell a position.

To some degree, I guess, that's always a problem in political discussions, but it's reaching almost comical levels here. I think when you take out all the bad arguments, it comes down a small but positive economic boost for the world as a whole, some of which will benefit America (if that's your only concern), and geopolitics (and I simply do not understand people, particularly one extremely belligerent and ignorant poster, who cannot accept that that is a genuine concern) versus legitimate concerns about undue corporate influence over domestic policy for member nations. It's also become a symbolic issue for the left, which I don't really care about.
 
Forget if it debunks anything, take Noam to task if you disagree with him. Is there anything he's said in there that's false or not worth saying, in your mind?

He basically sees we don't know what the TPP is.... which is true because it hasn't even been negotiated...

He then goes on to spout a bunch of stuff of boosting corporate profits while crushing the poor and ends by saying that over 40% of the American population is under the poverty line?!?!?!

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/

 
I pointed out that what Warren said was, "there are about 600 outside advisors that have access to sensitive information, and the roster includes a wide diversity of industry representatives and some labor and NGO representatives too," and what one dishonest poster summarized that as was "600 international corporations wrote the bill." That's a stunning misrepresentation, no? Chomsky said, "it's not secret from the hundreds of corporate lawyers and lobbyists who are writing the thing," which is obvious hyperbole.

I'm a big believer that clarity and honesty are the most important things. People can and will disagree, but people on every side should still make every effort to be accurate and clear about their positions. With regard to the TPP, there is a fair debate to be had, with good points on both sides, but it's not being had because people are so emotional about it (even with no substantive positions), because people are forming positions without knowing what they're talking about, and because a lot of people who do know a little about it are trying to sell a position.

To some degree, I guess, that's always a problem in political discussions, but it's reaching almost comical levels here. I think when you take out all the bad arguments, it comes down a small but positive economic boost for the world as a whole, some of which will benefit America (if that's your only concern), and geopolitics (and I simply do not understand people, particularly one extremely belligerent and ignorant poster, who cannot accept that that is a genuine concern) versus legitimate concerns about undue corporate influence over domestic policy for member nations. It's also become a symbolic issue for the left, which I don't really care about.

Okay, yes, it's a misrepresentation of Warren's words. Point conceded. But we're only seeing pieces of it, everything we know about it we know from wikileaks, and the relevant the trade unions (I think all of them) are calling it secretive, even though some of them are being given information, which means they obviously aren't getting the whole picture! We don't know what they're seeing and they apparently don't think they're seeing enough.

So what about that?

Also, after what we've seen over the last 30 years, why should anyone trust a treaty corporations are lobbying so hard for? Who is it that is keeping the terms so secretive? Why do you think we're unable to have a substantive debate...isn't not for lack of trying, it's for lack of information, as you said.

Corporations do not deserve the benefit of the doubt on any issue. You know I respect ya Jack, I've said it before, so that's why I'm picking your brain so hard on this one. I'm going to keep doing it and I hope you'll do me the courtsey of responding like you have been, honestly and calmly. I'm an emotional person I get riled up over things, I wish I could stay calm all the time but I can't. Although a foul mouth fits well on Sherdog so I get on fine here.

Anyway, here's a piece I found interesting and indicative

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/27/corporations-paid-us-senators-fast-track-tpp
 
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He basically sees we don't know what the TPP is.... which is true because it hasn't even been negotiated...

He then goes on to spout a bunch of stuff of boosting corporate profits while crushing the poor and ends by saying that over 40% of the American population is under the poverty line?!?!?!

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/

I didn't catch that, but I think (don't want to watch again) that he did say he wasn't sure about the number. If we use the market to distribute income in a nation, we're inevitably going to have about a quarter of the population in poverty. Kids, the elderly, and the disabled are going to have a hard time generating income, we deliberately target unemployment of around 5% in order to keep inflation down, and young adults are often either in college or just starting their careers. The only way to change that is some form of redistribution (and note that capital ownership and rents are also forms of gov't-driven redistribution). Those groups are more than 90% of people in poverty. Of the remainder, you have a lot of people who aren't "unemployed" but aren't working either (caregivers, mostly). Then there are people living in collapsed local economies (and past trade deals probably contributed to that, but there's no reason to think that future ones would, as the door is already open) and adults in mid-career making low wages, which could be affected somewhat by trade deals, but isn't primarily driven by that. So the TPP and poverty are just not related issues.

I think that international trade has contributed to capital taking an increased share of national income, but to oppose future deals on those grounds is like worrying about a breach in the hull when your ship is on the sea floor. I think the way to address that is to change the tax system (increase taxes on inheritance, dividends, and capital gains, cut payroll and taxes on lower income); aggressively target full employment, with expansionary monetary or fiscal policy where appropriate; encourage--or at least stop discouraging--unionization; and make higher education more easily attainable for the poor.

But we're only seeing pieces of it, everything we know about it we know from wikileaks, and the relevant the trade unions (I think all of them) are calling it secretive, even though some of them are being given information, which means they obviously aren't getting the whole picture! We don't know what they're seeing and they apparently don't think they're seeing enough.

So what about that?

I think a lot of the criticisms we're seeing here is just over normal stuff by people who don't normally pay attention to the process. Multilateral agreements between nations are not generally made public--not for any nefarious reason, but just because it's hard to negotiate that way.
 
Okay, yes, it's a misrepresentation of Warren's words. Point conceded. But we're only seeing pieces of it, everything we know about it we know from wikileaks, and the relevant the trade unions (I think all of them) are calling it secretive, even though some of them are being given information, which means they obviously aren't getting the whole picture! We don't know what they're seeing and they apparently don't think they're seeing enough.

So what about that?

I think my other response kind of handles this. It's just how the process has to work.

Corporations do not deserve the benefit of the doubt on any issue. You know I respect ya Jack, I've said it before, so that's why I'm picking your brain so hard on this one. I'm going to keep doing it and I hope you'll do me the courtsey of responding like you have been, honestly and calmly. I'm an emotional person I get riled up over things, I wish I could stay calm all the time but I can't. Although a foul mouth fits well on Sherdog so I get on fine here.

Anyway, here's a piece I found interesting and indicative

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/may/27/corporations-paid-us-senators-fast-track-tpp

But, see, here's the issue with that:

Out of the total $1,148,971 given, an average of $17,676.48 was donated to each of the 65
 
I think my other response kind of handles this. It's just how the process has to work.

So basically, Republicans get a lot of donations from corporations and Republicans voted for this thing. Democrats also get donations from corporations, though not as much, and conservative Democrats also supported it. They're trying to imply causality or that donations are specifically related to the TPP, but that case is not even close to being made. Even if there were no TPP, Republicans would be getting lots of corporate donations and Democrats would be getting a bit less. And even if there were no donations, Republicans are going to vote conservatively. It's just more background stuff. I'm sure if you looked into it, you'd find that Senators from states or Reps from districts with disproportionately high percentages of Evangelical, elderly, wealthy or white voters are overwhelmingly supportive of the TPP.

"Its just how the process has to work" - I don't think it does. Negotiations on a mass scale like this could very well be conducted differently. I'm not saying do it inside Yankee Stadium, but if someone like Warren is requesting info, on any piece at all, she should have access to it. You're buying a line. If you can't imagine any other way for this process to work, you're not very imaginative.

This how the process does work, yes, but it doesn't have to be this way; it IS secretive, so even if it's "secretive for a purpose" as you say, the details are still kept confidential from the people who will be most impacted and who are most trustworthy in terms of their comments and insights.

From the facts we have, we see massive campaign contributions from the businesses who are at the table helping to write this thing, which should be a conflict of interest, we see scary wikileaks reveals about corporate power overriding state power, and the politicians and people worth trusting (Sanders, Chomsky, Warren) are pissed off.

So that's enough for me, I don't see why it's not enough for you, even based on the sources you've provided, so I guess that's that.
 
I pointed out that what Warren said was, "there are about 600 outside advisors that have access to sensitive information, and the roster includes a wide diversity of industry representatives and some labor and NGO representatives too," and what one dishonest poster summarized that as was "600 international corporations wrote the bill." That's a stunning misrepresentation, no? Chomsky said, "it's not secret from the hundreds of corporate lawyers and lobbyists who are writing the thing," which is obvious hyperbole.

I'm a big believer that clarity and honesty are the most important things. People can and will disagree, but people on every side should still make every effort to be accurate and clear about their positions. With regard to the TPP, there is a fair debate to be had, with good points on both sides, but it's not being had because people are so emotional about it (even with no substantive positions), because people are forming positions without knowing what they're talking about, and because a lot of people who do know a little about it are trying to sell a position.

To some degree, I guess, that's always a problem in political discussions, but it's reaching almost comical levels here. I think when you take out all the bad arguments, it comes down a small but positive economic boost for the world as a whole, some of which will benefit America (if that's your only concern), and geopolitics (and I simply do not understand people, particularly one extremely belligerent and ignorant poster, who cannot accept that that is a genuine concern) versus legitimate concerns about undue corporate influence over domestic policy for member nations. It's also become a symbolic issue for the left, which I don't really care about.

Lol at clarity and honesty after using "unscrupulous" to describe my "stunning misrepresentation" of Warren, then when you see Chompsky said it its "hyperbole".

The lobbyists do write these bills.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...73620/when-lobbyists-literally-write-the-bill

I guess we'll have to pass it to know what's in it AND who actually wrote it. The FACT remaons that 600 Multinational Corporations and their lobbyists have been negotiating this bill. Perhaps when I say that you are picturing a giant typewriter or a series of pens being passed down along a chain of lobbyists? To pretend these lobbyists and MCs are not influencing and that at least one (probably at least 29 (one for each chapter)) lobbyist is actually writing the actual language that was negotiated by the 600 MCs is using clarity to be dishonest.

You spend so much time debating official definitions rather than interpret plain speak for what it is just to distract from the point.
 
You spend so much time debating official definitions rather than interpret plain speak for what it is just to distract from the point.

Your claim was plainly false. You said that 600 corporations wrote it, when the reality is that 600 outside advisors, including industry, labor, and NGO representatives, had access to portions of the bill and were able to provide some feedback. You made a false claim. If you didn't intend to mislead, you should thank me and clarify. That would be the honorable thing to do, no? What it could be is that you heard Chomsky, took his comments literally, and exaggerated. But, again, why would you respond to a correction with such vitriol?
 
TTP is another example of the US exporting its shady corporate business practices on the rest of the developing world, while trying to wage a proxy economic war with China.
 
I've read the links Jack provided but they don't address the wikileaks piece about corporations being able to sue national governments to change their environmental or labour laws. Those two points are the points Chomsky and Sanders harp on the most.

hi Egon,

if these are the two points that Mr. Chomsky and Bernie harp on the most, well, that's unfortunate.

i'm generally sympathetic to both of these men, but they're wrong on this issue. i think they're depending on the ignorance of the US electorate when they beat this drum to scare people into being averse to the TPP.

here's an example of this very mechanism you fear, in motion.

in 2012 a US energy company, Lone Pine Resources (LPS) filed suit against the Canadian government under the provisions of the
 
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in 2012 a US energy company, Lone Pine Resources (LPS) filed suit against the Canadian government under the provisions of the “investor-state dispute settlement” (ISDS).

Wasn't it Twin Pines Resources?
 
hey and g'afternoon Jack,

I think a lot of the criticisms we're seeing here is just over normal stuff by people who don't normally pay attention to the process. Multilateral agreements between nations are not generally made public--not for any nefarious reason, but just because it's hard to negotiate that way.

yep, pretty much.

the rules for viewing trade agreements are nothing new, they've been in place since the Clinton administration and have been renewed by both Republican and Democratic congresses alike.

the current drafts for the TPP are also available for viewing any day of the week, any hour of the day, by one's elected representatives.

the bill, when completed, will also be presented to congress for debate and an "up or down" vote.

so much for secrecy.

- IGIT
 
hi JVS,

yeah, F me.

i was reading about it a few days ago and (lazily) just jotted out my response from memory.

thx for the correction.

- IGIT

No, that was a (missed) joke. An allusion to Back to the Future (where Twin Pines Mall becomes Lone Pine Mall after Marty gets back because he crashed into one of the pines).
 
Lol at clarity and honesty after using "unscrupulous" to describe my "stunning misrepresentation" of Warren, then when you see Chompsky said it its "hyperbole".

The lobbyists do write these bills.
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallp...73620/when-lobbyists-literally-write-the-bill

I guess we'll have to pass it to know what's in it AND who actually wrote it. The FACT remaons that 600 Multinational Corporations and their lobbyists have been negotiating this bill. Perhaps when I say that you are picturing a giant typewriter or a series of pens being passed down along a chain of lobbyists? To pretend these lobbyists and MCs are not influencing and that at least one (probably at least 29 (one for each chapter)) lobbyist is actually writing the actual language that was negotiated by the 600 MCs is using clarity to be dishonest.

You spend so much time debating official definitions rather than interpret plain speak for what it is just to distract from the point.

You don't have to pass it, you just need to actually create it and see it to judge it.

Do you really think it's possible to negotiate a pact between 11 countries without fast tracking it?

I'm not saying people need to support TPP but at least let the fucking thing become assembled so that experts can weigh in on the final product.
 
No, that was a (missed) joke. An allusion to Back to the Future (where Twin Pines Mall becomes Lone Pine Mall after Marty gets back because he crashed into one of the pines).

hi again JVS,

oh alright. i just figured you were reading about the case and i'd made a mistake. i just rechecked it and it was Lone Pine Resources.

i saw Back to the Future when i was a very, very young boy ages ago. can't believe you remember those kinds of details from that film.

i remember, i think, that the protagonist was named "Marty" and the general plot lines, but thats about it.

- IGIT
 
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