Using Philly shell/ shoulder roll in kickboxing and mma?

[chirpsman]

Hi there this post has probably been made before but I want to know a fresh opinion.

I hear a lot that use of the philly shell and shoulder roll in kickboxing is a bad idea as it opens up to headkicks however I recently used it in sparring and it worked perfectly well. I rolled my opponents right hands and had my right hand ready to block high against the left switch kick. I also found it a lot easier to block kicks and shots to the body.

The only real problem I had was dealing with leg kicks as my weight was often on my front leg while I was getting ready to backpedal, but I constantly switched between a standard muay thai stance and the philly shell throughout the sparring and it threw my partners off.

This was just my first encounter with using it in sparring and no doubt will come across problems with it in the future, but I just want to know what sherdoggers take on it is? It seemed to be quite effective when used inbetween a standard stance.

And with regards to the left hand being low to block the body, I found it quite easy to quickly move my elbow high to defend the left side of my head. After watching ortega's beautiful boxing against moicano I was desperate to try it

 

[ARIZE]

No man, just no... There's a reason why you don't see anyone in KB using it...
And if your trainer can't explain why it's a bad idea... change gyms.

 

[Mongoosemk12]

One of my main sparring partners does this. No one knows how, but he makes it work. He is quite tall for his weight class and a southpaw which I think helps him out a bit. He is a lot of fun to spar with because he is so difficult to land on and a really intelligent fighter. His weak points are definitely defending low kicks, rear leg head kicks, and liver shot/right cross combos. If it was a real fight I would just maul him with leg kicks (which is one of the main reasons I think the style doesn't work in Muay Thai/KB), but in sparring where I try to mix it up he is really tough to land anything clean on. This style with more emphasis on having weight on the rear foot so you can defend quickly with the front leg might work a bit, but I still think you get your leg chopped down in a fight.

 

[Sano]

I've begun mixing it in as well, but not sparring atm so can't say how well it would work. I don't see why it wouldn't. You will need to modify it a little and you have to be aware of the highkicks (and legkicks are definitely harder to block), but still. I wouldn't use it all the time, but at times.

It's the same as people who kept saying that you can't defend a takedown with a side on stance. Insisting that you stand square. It's simply not true. GSP, Wonderboy, Machida, BJ, Conor all has good-excellent TDD.

It seems like the philly shell would actually go well with a karate like side on stance because the bladed stance kinda feeds into it. Someone like Wonderboy really has a week inside game, but maybe if he used the shoulder roll when people managed to close the distance on him he could at least turn easier with it and get out. My guess is that that's why Conor has started using it a little while ago as well.

A few people have used it in MMA, with varying success. None have been really good at it though.

CB Dollaway:

Bobby Green:


Conor tried to against the cage vs Diaz, Ortega a few times in his last fight, Iaquinta a few times, a guy named Ivica Truscek does it as well.

It's fun experimenting with, but it's definitely not for everyone and it would have some drawbacks too. Even in boxing the shell is not for everyone. Too many people either can't use it or are not taught to use it properly.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Any competent kicker will feint punches and destroy that leg. I agree that there are times when you are defending punches that it can be used. But if that is your default stance for more than 10 seconds at a time your asking for your leg to get chopped

 

[Frode Falch]

It only work if the other guy is a bad kicker, and if he is not a good clinch guy.

 

[chirpsman]

I've begun mixing it in as well, but not sparring atm so can't say how well it would work. I don't see why it wouldn't. You will need to modify it a little and you have to be aware of the highkicks (and legkicks are definitely harder to block), but still. I wouldn't use it all the time, but at times.

It's the same as people who kept saying that you can't defend a takedown with a side on stance. Insisting that you stand square. It's simply not true. GSP, Wonderboy, Machida, BJ, Conor all has good-excellent TDD.

It seems like the philly shell would actually go well with a karate like side on stance because the bladed stance kinda feeds into it. Someone like Wonderboy really has a week inside game, but maybe if he used the shoulder roll when people managed to close the distance on him he could at least turn easier with it and get out. My guess is that that's why Conor has started using it a little while ago as well.

A few people have used it in MMA, with varying success. None have been really good at it though.

CB Dollaway:

Bobby Green:


Conor tried to against the cage vs Diaz, Ortega a few times in his last fight, Iaquinta a few times, a guy named Ivica Truscek does it as well.

It's fun experimenting with, but it's definitely not for everyone and it would have some drawbacks too. Even in boxing the shell is not for everyone. Too many people either can't use it or are not taught to use it properly.

Thanks for the solid response bro. I agree it can be used quite effectively when mixed in with the normal stance, and I too have noticed it being used increasingly in mma.

 

[chirpsman]

One of my main sparring partners does this. No one knows how, but he makes it work. He is quite tall for his weight class and a southpaw which I think helps him out a bit. He is a lot of fun to spar with because he is so difficult to land on and a really intelligent fighter. His weak points are definitely defending low kicks, rear leg head kicks, and liver shot/right cross combos. If it was a real fight I would just maul him with leg kicks (which is one of the main reasons I think the style doesn't work in Muay Thai/KB), but in sparring where I try to mix it up he is really tough to land anything clean on. This style with more emphasis on having weight on the rear foot so you can defend quickly with the front leg might work a bit, but I still think you get your leg chopped down in a fight.

It only work if the other guy is a bad kicker, and if he is not a good clinch guy.

Any competent kicker will feint punches and destroy that leg. I agree that there are times when you are defending punches that it can be used. But if that is your default stance for more than 10 seconds at a time your asking for your leg to get chopped

I don't understand these responses, boxing stances are used in mma all the time to great success, if I am constantly in motion and moving my weight between my front and back leg the check is quite easy. Also, the stance is quite low, especially the lead arm making for an easy underhook to stuff takedowns.

 

[chirpsman]

No man, just no... There's a reason why you don't see anyone in KB using it...
And if your trainer can't explain why it's a bad idea... change gyms.

Can you please explain, I've presented my evidence. This was exactly the type of unintelligent response I didn't want

 

[biscuitsbrah]

I don't understand these responses, boxing stances are used in mma all the time to great success, if I am constantly in motion and moving my weight between my front and back leg the check is quite easy. Also, the stance is quite low, especially the lead arm making for an easy underhook to stuff takedowns.

The philly shell is extremely bladed... even if you lifted up your leg it would still get kicked...
You're probably just standing very square. Thus losing many of the benefits of the shell.

You can use it if you move your feet a lot. But I still wouldn't recommend it for more than 10 seconds just to defend or show them a different look...

 

[Sano]

The philly shell is extremely bladed... even if you lifted up your leg it would still get kicked...
You're probably just standing very square. Thus losing many of the benefits of the shell.

You can use it if you move your feet a lot. But I still wouldn't recommend it for more than 10 seconds just to defend or show them a different look...

The thing about bladed stances in MMA, I think it really depends on your style. Let's take some of the best bladed stance guys out there:

Wonderboy:

Conor:

Machida:

Gunnar Nelson:

Jouban:

So forth, they haven't really shown any tendency to have problems with leg kicks.

Wonderboy kinda uses it here:

Interestingly enough though, looking at this they are all southpaws. Well except Gunnar. The shoulder roll and shell doesn't work as well against same side fighters, so it might not be a good idea here.

Which orthodox blade stance fighters are there? I can't think of any of the top of my head. Pettis brothers are southpaws too right?

 

[The MM Analyst]

So far we haven't seen anyone who's good at the philly shell/crab style guard try to use it in MMA. Bobby Green has had quite a bit of success with it and he's a guy who has no idea what he's doing, being taught the shell by guys who have no idea what he's doing. Whittaker has had success with it as well. It has some clearly defined weaknesses, but I suspect that if you could find a guy who knew the shell to teach you it and knew enough about MMA to adapt it, it'd do just fine.

 

[ARIZE]

Can you please explain, I've presented my evidence. This was exactly the type of unintelligent response I didn't want

You're right, it was an unintelligent response and I'm sorry...

So lets do this over:

Philly shell/shoulder rolls cannot be used in KB

You cannot stop a teep to the face
You cannot stop a guy spamming teeps to your arm and damaging it
You cannot stop low kicks
You cannot stop tripping low kicks
You cannot stop body kicks to your left side/back
You cannot stop head kicks to you left side
Your left hand will get destroyed after a few body roundhouses
You are slower to correctly block body kicks to your right side
You are slower to switch kick
You will have both hands down when kicking with your right
Harder to initiate clinch
You cant stop your opponent when he tries to clinch
You will start in a disadvantage when clinching

And probably forgetting a ton of others...that's why you should really ask your trainer...


You may get away with it as a beginner sparring, but there is no way you can pull it of against experienced fighters. In a match, there is no way you can tell every time if a kick is aiming your head or body until the last moment. You will not be fast enough to change your defense at every kick...
And you need to take only one good kick without any defense to go KO.

You can used a more bladed stance like TKD, with the front hand a little lower than usual...but you must rely on speed to either avoid the strike, hit faster than your opponent or counter... you do not try to block like that. That also means you learn other type of kicks, like sidekicks or back kicks. You wont use switch kicks as much...

As for mma, i haven't see someone use the Philly shell/shoulder rolls like boxers do, to block strikes...we see a lot of bladed stance from Karate/TKD... but it's a completely different style....
Anyway I'm not experienced enough in MMA, so it may work if you fight against a non-kicker but even there i have my doubts.

Edit: @Sano
Those examples you mentioned are bladed stance fighter coming mostly from TMA's, that's not Philly shell/shoulder rolls from boxing.

 

[Mr Mojo Lane]

The thing about bladed stances in MMA, I think it really depends on your style. Let's take some of the best bladed stance guys out there:

Wonderboy:

Conor:

Machida:

Gunnar Nelson:

Jouban:

So forth, they haven't really shown any tendency to have problems with leg kicks.

Wonderboy kinda uses it here:

Interestingly enough though, looking at this they are all southpaws. Well except Gunnar. The shoulder roll and shell doesn't work as well against same side fighters, so it might not be a good idea here.

Which orthodox blade stance fighters are there? I can't think of any of the top of my head. Pettis brothers are southpaws too right?

I can see only the Machida, Jourban and Wonderboy gifs right now. They don't look like they are using a Philly Shell so much. It looks like they just have their front arm a little bit lower. One of the things to add about the Philly Shell with kicks is that they person using it could get really confused because they are switching leads a lot and it could get even more confusing if they swim their arms on a round kick or something. There could be times where they would have both hands completely down

 

[Uchi Mata]

I've begun mixing it in as well, but not sparring atm so can't say how well it would work. I don't see why it wouldn't. You will need to modify it a little and you have to be aware of the highkicks (and legkicks are definitely harder to block), but still. I wouldn't use it all the time, but at times.

It's the same as people who kept saying that you can't defend a takedown with a side on stance. Insisting that you stand square. It's simply not true. GSP, Wonderboy, Machida, BJ, Conor all has good-excellent TDD.

It seems like the philly shell would actually go well with a karate like side on stance because the bladed stance kinda feeds into it. Someone like Wonderboy really has a week inside game, but maybe if he used the shoulder roll when people managed to close the distance on him he could at least turn easier with it and get out. My guess is that that's why Conor has started using it a little while ago as well.

A few people have used it in MMA, with varying success. None have been really good at it though.

CB Dollaway:

Bobby Green:


Conor tried to against the cage vs Diaz, Ortega a few times in his last fight, Iaquinta a few times, a guy named Ivica Truscek does it as well.

It's fun experimenting with, but it's definitely not for everyone and it would have some drawbacks too. Even in boxing the shell is not for everyone. Too many people either can't use it or are not taught to use it properly.

Joe Duffy has been using it pretty well lately. Of course, he was a pro boxer, so it might be one of those things that only works if you're much, much better in a given area than your opponent.

 

[Sano]

You're right, it was an unintelligent response and I'm sorry...

So lets do this over:

Philly shell/shoulder rolls cannot be used in KB

You cannot stop a teep to the face
You cannot stop a guy spamming teeps to your arm and damaging it
You cannot stop low kicks
You cannot stop tripping low kicks
You cannot stop body kicks to your left side/back
You cannot stop head kicks to you left side
Your left hand will get destroyed after a few body roundhouses
You are slower to correctly block body kicks to your right side
You are slower to switch kick
You will have both hands down when kicking with your right
Harder to initiate clinch
You cant stop your opponent when he tries to clinch
You will start in a disadvantage when clinching

And probably forgetting a ton of others...that's why you should really ask your trainer...


You may get away with it as a beginner sparring, but there is no way you can pull it of against experienced fighters. In a match, there is no way you can tell every time if a kick is aiming your head or body until the last moment. You will not be fast enough to change your defense at every kick...
And you need to take only one good kick without any defense to go KO.

You can used a more bladed stance like TKD, with the front hand a little lower than usual...but you must rely on speed to either avoid the strike, hit faster than your opponent or counter... you do not try to block like that. That also means you learn other type of kicks, like sidekicks or back kicks. You wont use switch kicks as much...

As for mma, i haven't see someone use the Philly shell/shoulder rolls like boxers do, to block strikes...we see a lot of bladed stance from Karate/TKD... but it's a completely different style....
Anyway I'm not experienced enough in MMA, so it may work if you fight against a non-kicker but even there i have my doubts.

Edit: @Sano
Those examples you mentioned are bladed stance fighter coming mostly from TMA's, that's not Philly shell/shoulder rolls from boxing.

I can see only the Machida, Jourban and Wonderboy gifs right now. They don't look like they are using a Philly Shell so much. It looks like they just have their front arm a little bit lower. One of the things to add about the Philly Shell with kicks is that they person using it could get really confused because they are switching leads a lot and it could get even more confusing if they swim their arms on a round kick or something. There could be times where they would have both hands completely down

I wasn't saying that they used the Philly shell, they don't. I was using them as examples that a bladed stance doesn't mean you automaticly lose to leg kicks. You guys must have missed where I said that.

Take someone like Wonderboy or Gunnar for example. They are pretty much clueless on the inside. Many people want to close the distance on them. Obviously Wonderboy would still want to keep range and all that, but using a modified shell when someone broke through to the inside I'd argue would help him and it would feed directly into his style. Now, would he be able to use it well? Maybe not, but it would be interesting. Try standing the way they do in that TMA stance and then switch to the shell, it feels very natural and blends completely into the bladed stance.

Obviously there would be a time and a place, but many of those guys have no inside game, and if they were to square up with a high guard everytime someone closed the distance on them, it would take time away from what they really want to do which is seperate and counter. It would require them to change their stance up from bladed to square and back again and then counter. A shell would not.

I just think it's interesting.

Joe Duffy has been using it pretty well lately. Of course, he was a pro boxer, so it might be one of those things that only works if you're much, much better in a given area than your opponent.

Yeah Duffy uses it a little bit as well, forgot about that!

Yeah you have to be skilled for it to work, otherwise you'll just get tagged. I don't think it's for everyone clearly. Might be that you'd have to have the overall striking ability above your opponent.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I wasn't saying that they used the Philly shell, they don't. I was using them as examples that a bladed stance doesn't mean you automaticly lose to leg kicks. You guys must have missed where I said that.

Take someone like Wonderboy or Gunnar for example. They are pretty much clueless on the inside. Many people want to close the distance on them. Obviously Wonderboy would still want to keep range and all that, but using a modified shell when someone broke through to the inside I'd argue would help him and it would feed directly into his style. Now, would he be able to use it well? Maybe not, but it would be interesting. Try standing the way they do in that TMA stance and then switch to the shell, it feels very natural and blends completely into the bladed stance.

Obviously there would be a time and a place, but many of those guys have no inside game, and if they were to square up with a high guard everytime someone closed the distance on them, it would take time away from what they really want to do which is seperate and counter. It would require them to change their stance up from bladed to square and back again and then counter. A shell would not.

I just think it's interesting.

You can definitely have a bladed stance and not get leg kicked to death, but you better have quick reactions. Samart use to do it all the time, he got away with it mostly because he had such good timing on teeping people as they came in to kick.

 

[Sano]

You can definitely have a bladed stance and not get leg kicked to death, but you better have quick reactions. Samart use to do it all the time, he got away with it mostly because he had such good timing on teeping people as they came in to kick.

Nice vid!

Yeah, you can get away with it in MMA at least, Samart was from another world. Really like that guy, great to see that level of boxing in MT. The guys most prominent for their bladed stances in MMA doesn't really have an achilles that is leg kicks. They make it work quite well. Holly is another one, although she is a lot more front foot heavy.

 

[ARIZE]

@Sano

The way you said it, i understood that: Blade footed has answers against low kicks, Philly shell is blade footed so Philly shell has answer against low kicks. And since it's what OP is asking about, i just wanted to make that clarification: TMA's blade footed stance may be used against kicks, but not the Philly shell.
Sorry if i misunderstood.

 

[a guy]

@Sano

The way you said it, i understood that: Blade footed has answers against low kicks, Philly shell is blade footed so Philly shell has answer against low kicks. And since it's what OP is asking about, i just wanted to make that clarification: TMA's blade footed stance may be used against kicks, but not the Philly shell.
Sorry if i misunderstood.

In MMA it can absolutely be used against low kicks. The easiest takedown in MMA is a modified knee tap combined with a right straight at the same time the leg kick is thrown. Rory does it, and GSP did it to everyone. It works fine from the shell or any bladed stance, and works much better with a lowered hand. Not that I think it's a good idea to go around pretending to be Mayweather in an MMA fight, but you can actually pretty easily defend low kicks from that stance.