Using Philly shell/ shoulder roll in kickboxing and mma?

[Sano]

@Sano

The way you said it, i understood that: Blade footed has answers against low kicks, Philly shell is blade footed so Philly shell has answer against low kicks. And since it's what OP is asking about, i just wanted to make that clarification: TMA's blade footed stance may be used against kicks, but not the Philly shell.
Sorry if i misunderstood.

Yeah no worries.

I still feel like a modified version of the shell might help some of the fighters who already stand in a bladed footed stance. Or at least that it's an interesting thought. Most of them stand with their hands low anyway, in a much less safe position actually. They get away with it because they use range and try to stay on the outside, or counter with straights. Sometimes they do get cornered though and they look pretty clueless, which is where it would be cool to see it applied. You can turn some sharp angles in the shell. Just enough to cover up, roll the shots or catch, punish someone who closed on them with counters, turn the corner and pivot out and then create distance again and do what they do.

I understand that many would probably not make it work, but at the right time, and modified for the right style, it would be interesting to see. Maybe we'll see it at some point. Conor is definitely trying to use it a little bit, but again, he's a southpaw so it's a bit different.

 

[Uchi Mata]

@Sano

The way you said it, i understood that: Blade footed has answers against low kicks, Philly shell is blade footed so Philly shell has answer against low kicks. And since it's what OP is asking about, i just wanted to make that clarification: TMA's blade footed stance may be used against kicks, but not the Philly shell.
Sorry if i misunderstood.

That's a very important point, because I agree that the way you have to distribute your weight to use the Philly Shell is going to make the movement and teeping that Samart used impossible. And you can get kicked/kneed in the face.

 

[MaxMMA]

Been using the ol shoulder roll since almost the beginning. Never knew anything about the shoulder roll/philly shell until I joined sherdog. The shoulder roll feels very natural and seems almost like a no brainer for getting the hell out of the way of incoming fire. No one ever gave me a lesson on shoulder rolling, punches were coming towards my face and I just started rotating my trunk to take them on my shoulder blade instead of my face.

People that are telling you it won't work against a kickboxer or something else probably don't have much multiple style experience. Obviously I'm not going have my feet planted trying to use the shoulder roll against someone who's chopping at me with leg kicks or high kicks, but if someone is throwing a lot of punch heavy combinations, then the shoulder roll is a good defense. Works good in conjunction with the sidekick and most of the spinning kicks/fists/elbows.

This all comes back full circle to being a complete martial artist. Knowing when to use what, not every opponent or situation is the same. Shoulder rolling isn't my go to defense, but it definitely comes in handy against someone throwing a lot of hands.

 

[chirpsman]

Been using the ol shoulder roll since almost the beginning. Never knew anything about the shoulder roll/philly shell until I joined sherdog. The shoulder roll feels very natural and seems almost like a no brainer for getting the hell out of the way of incoming fire. No one ever gave me a lesson on shoulder rolling, punches were coming towards my face and I just started rotating my trunk to take them on my shoulder blade instead of my face.

People that are telling you it won't work against a kickboxer or something else probably don't have much multiple style experience. Obviously I'm not going have my feet planted trying to use the shoulder roll against someone who's chopping at me with leg kicks or high kicks, but if someone is throwing a lot of punch heavy combinations, then the shoulder roll is a good defense.

Works good in conjunction with the sidekick and most of the spinning kicks/fists/elbows.

same with me bro, I first started using it naturally but then was told from the start that it was a habit habit I should stop for muay thai

 

[The MM Analyst]

Also the idea that you can't defend kicks is not true. Sure, the stance leaves you more exposed to leg kicks, but they are in no way a hard counter. Like other people have pointed out, GSP would step in and blast anyone who tried to leg kick him from his bladed stance. Watch Pennacchio vs Dekkers. He doesn't use the shell, but his movement is an example of what you can do with it to counter kicks. He came out at the beginning and got kicked hard in the body three times because he sucks at blocking them, then figured out how to move the other way and kick out the standing leg when Dekkers tried to round kick him. Horiguchi was doing this against DJ too, he hit a cross-catch when DJ headkicked without even blocking, just using movement to defuse the power.

As for catching kicks, the hand position of the shell actually puts you in really good position to catch kicks on your open side. Most sanda guys stand with their hands in fairly similar position to the shell (low lead hand, high rear) because it's easier to trap the kicks between them. You can throw linear kicks, but the bladed stance presents a very small target for them and if you try to teep the arm, a sidestep or short dip to the side will have it missing or glancing harmlessly off the back.



A lot of sanda guys fight from a position not entirely dissimilar to the shell. They don't really shoulder roll because honestly they kind of suck at boxing, but it's there.

It also puts you in a good stance to work your own linear kicks from, and is even more useful in the Octagon with more space to move around than a ring.

 

[MaxMMA]

same with me bro, I first started using it naturally but then was told from the start that it was a habit habit I should stop for muay thai

Well in MT it most certainly is a bad habit, but outside the MT realm, it can be very useful against other types of fighters.

 

[chirpsman]

You're right, it was an unintelligent response and I'm sorry...

So lets do this over:

Philly shell/shoulder rolls cannot be used in KB

You cannot stop a teep to the face
You cannot stop a guy spamming teeps to your arm and damaging it
You cannot stop low kicks
You cannot stop tripping low kicks
You cannot stop body kicks to your left side/back
You cannot stop head kicks to you left side
Your left hand will get destroyed after a few body roundhouses
You are slower to correctly block body kicks to your right side
You are slower to switch kick
You will have both hands down when kicking with your right
Harder to initiate clinch
You cant stop your opponent when he tries to clinch
You will start in a disadvantage when clinching

And probably forgetting a ton of others...that's why you should really ask your trainer...


You may get away with it as a beginner sparring, but there is no way you can pull it of against experienced fighters. In a match, there is no way you can tell every time if a kick is aiming your head or body until the last moment. You will not be fast enough to change your defense at every kick...
And you need to take only one good kick without any defense to go KO.

You can used a more bladed stance like TKD, with the front hand a little lower than usual...but you must rely on speed to either avoid the strike, hit faster than your opponent or counter... you do not try to block like that. That also means you learn other type of kicks, like sidekicks or back kicks. You wont use switch kicks as much...

As for mma, i haven't see someone use the Philly shell/shoulder rolls like boxers do, to block strikes...we see a lot of bladed stance from Karate/TKD... but it's a completely different style....
Anyway I'm not experienced enough in MMA, so it may work if you fight against a non-kicker but even there i have my doubts.

Edit: @Sano
Those examples you mentioned are bladed stance fighter coming mostly from TMA's, that's not Philly shell/shoulder rolls from boxing.

I strongly disagree with many of the reasons you gave. If you would like me to go into further details I can

 

[ARIZE]

Euh... thanks but am ok... It seems to me you're already persuaded that you can pull it off, so I don't really see a point on discussing it further. Hope you can make it work...

 

[superpunch]

Hi there this post has probably been made before but I want to know a fresh opinion.

I hear a lot that use of the philly shell and shoulder roll in kickboxing is a bad idea as it opens up to headkicks however I recently used it in sparring and it worked perfectly well. I rolled my opponents right hands and had my right hand ready to block high against the left switch kick. I also found it a lot easier to block kicks and shots to the body.

The only real problem I had was dealing with leg kicks as my weight was often on my front leg while I was getting ready to backpedal, but I constantly switched between a standard muay thai stance and the philly shell throughout the sparring and it threw my partners off.

This was just my first encounter with using it in sparring and no doubt will come across problems with it in the future, but I just want to know what sherdoggers take on it is? It seemed to be quite effective when used inbetween a standard stance.

And with regards to the left hand being low to block the body, I found it quite easy to quickly move my elbow high to defend the left side of my head. After watching ortega's beautiful boxing against moicano I was desperate to try it

Block an actual head kick outside of sparring with full power using one arm and it'll break your arm

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

A modified shell absolutely works in KB/MMA.

Like several posters have already pointed out, you don't just stand there, stationary, waiting to be leg kicked to death. You're proactive with counters, you use footwork, you switch your stances up.

Also, you can use the shell with your front foot pointed at your opponent's center line. Leg kicks become much less of a problem.

Never understood why high kicks are supposed to be a problem with the stance either, but I haven't had any issues blocking those after a few years of Kyokushin in any stance(kicks and kick defense are two things the style really helped develop).

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

it can work. Granted crabby guys come out of the typical guard associated with the style anyway and dont just ALWAYS stand in the guard position people think of.

 

[rmongler]

Champ Thomas once wrote in his book that the stonewall is the most anatomically appropriate guard for human biomechanics (prphrs), and personally i agree with him.

The 'classic' guards, be they earmuffs or sidebows, that are mirrored on both sides are 'overloaded' in section; larger gross motor movements are required to change coverage from head to body and back, making one vulnerable to high-low mixups.

With the stonewall/crab/shell on the other hand, coverage of any vulnerable point on the body is never more than a subtle shift, twist, or movement away.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Philly Shell/shoulder roll can be used in kickboxing, but it has different application than in boxing. In boxing, you dont have to worry about kicks, and the target area is smaller. If you are rolling, I do not mind firing powerful kicks to your arm and shoulders

 

[rmongler]

Rolling and bobbing and weaving is something people can do regardless of how they hold their hands.

Im getting the sense that a lot of the criticisms people have been trying to level so far are basically just a long list of category errors; problems endemic to fighting in general being construed as applying to it in particular, and vise-versa; presuming someone using it would be limited to some particular form of operation rather than being able to do vital things endemic to fighting in general.

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

@ARIZE does bring up some good points, but he is also known to be quite biased against the use of anything that is more "boxing" style in muay thai and kickboxing in general anyway. His objection isn't so much that it won't work, because in some situations it will, but that it diminishes the purity of muay thai or something like that.

Given that there's a lot of overlap between muay thai and boxing in Thailand and a lot of people have been very successful in both (hi, Samart, hi Somrak!), I think his complaints are silly, but he can do him.

I think the most important thing to note is that nothing in fighting of any sort is a blanket statement. There are times where using the shoulder roll will work for you in kickboxing and mma, but there are also times where it'll leave you open to some attacks. Use sparingly, and with caution.

PS: Sinister would suggest that you don't even try to use the shoulder roll and associated techniques if you don't have a coach who is familiar with it teaching you, since just applying it haphazardly can give you an incomplete system that has glaring openings. Experiment, but proceed with caution.

 

[ARIZE]

@ARIZE does bring up some good points, but he is also known to be quite biased against the use of anything that is more "boxing" style in muay thai and kickboxing in general anyway. His objection isn't so much that it won't work, because in some situations it will, but that it diminishes the purity of muay thai or something like that.

In general yes, but not in this case, for 2 reasons. First we are talking about KB and not MT, and i really don't give a F about purity of style in KB ( which doesn't exist in the first place).
But more important i really believe you can't use the Philly shell in KB. I have the impressions that the people who say otherwise are either beginners who haven't taste it against experienced fighters in more than a light sparring, or people that confuse the Philly shell with the TMA's traditional stance...

I think his complaints are silly, but he can do him

I think i should be offended, but I'm not sure... please be clearer when you insult me...

 

[ShadowoftheSun]

Not trying to insult you, just saying: you do you.

And while you obviously can't use the philly shell as-is in kickboxing, we've got a lot of people in this thread who say that they've been working on using the shoulder roll and a bladed stance, and a lot of them are people who I'd generally trust when it comes to their analysis of what can work in kickboxing, like Sano and a guy.

My opinion is basically: give it a go, if you've got a competent coach who can teach you how to utilize it, but don't expect that it'll be applicable for every situation. That's all.

 

[ARIZE]

If I'm not mistaken, i have the impression that Sano and the guy are talking about MMA and blade footed stance. As i said, i haven't a huge experience in MMA, neither as a fighter neither as a follower/analysis, so i wont debate about that.

The only names that are not from MMA, are Samart and Pennacchio, which is about bladed stance, and clearly not Philly shell or shoulder roll, and some examples from Sanda...

I would really like if someone could give one example of successful professional KBoxer, using in his fight, TRUE Philly shell with shoulder rolling. I don't mean an 5sec example, but someone who you can clearly see using that style all the way in a competitive fight...
AND NOT JUST BLADE FOOTED STANCE FROM TMAs...

Even then i would be against suggesting it at a beginner to try it, since an exception doesn't make it a rule, but at least i may understand why you all claim it's viable...

 

[MaxMMA]

Euh... thanks but am ok... It seems to me you're already persuaded that you can pull it off, so I don't really see a point on discussing it further. Hope you can make it work...

I think you think people on here think they can have the rear hand up, lead hand down, feet planted, chin tucked into the lead shoulder, moving around slipping, weaving and absorbing on the shoulder/arm their opponents kicks, which when you put it that way, is completely ridiculous.

 

[MaxMMA]

If I'm not mistaken, i have the impression that Sano and the guy are talking about MMA and blade footed stance. As i said, i haven't a huge experience in MMA, neither as a fighter neither as a follower/analysis, so i wont debate about that.

The only names that are not from MMA, are Samart and Pennacchio, which is about bladed stance, and clearly not Philly shell or shoulder roll, and some examples from Sanda...

I would really like if someone could give one example of successful professional KBoxer, using in his fight, TRUE Philly shell with shoulder rolling. I don't mean an 5sec example, but someone who you can clearly see using that style all the way in a competitive fight...
AND NOT JUST BLADE FOOTED STANCE FROM TMAs...

Even then i would be against suggesting it at a beginner to try it, since an exception doesn't make it a rule, but at least i may understand why you all claim it's viable...

Oop, just saw this post, that is what you think.

Like I said in my earlier post, the shoulder roll is an awesome defense, but I don't think anyone with any sense would use it in the traditional boxing sense while in a fight under kb,Mt, or mma rules.