Vendetta: State Of Colorado Goes After Cake Maker Jack Phillips Again

That is a valid point but there has to be a limit. Are you going to make a gay baker make a anti gay cake? Is a jew going to be forced to bake a nazi cake? There maybe the need to have some public accommodation but I think there is a countervailing public policy interest in letting people stay away from people and behavior that they find morally repugnant.
You have to form solid legal demarcations between a disobedience of the Civil Rights Act and staying "away from people and behavior they find morally repugnant." After all, I don't care if that transgender person comes in asking for a cake off the shelf. You serve that person. Anything else is a violation of the law.

I don't see the need to regurgitate old arguments, so you can see those in the spoiler below. I already sorted out a compromise that should satisfy both sides, but both sides don't really want compromise.

It's reminiscent of the gay marriage issue where civil unions were a seamless compromise that nobody wanted. Now the anti-homosexual conservatives are looking for their own inch, which they surely will try to parlay into a mile, and seem to think this favors them in the long term because of the status of the court, and the potential for Trump to put 2 more justices on there if he carries 2020 (should he even care to run). It won't. They simply don't have the numbers, anymore, and never will again. They will get browbeaten through Congress if they continue to escalate this rather than finding a more sensible compromise.

Then again, I consistently underestimate the capacity for common sense on the other side. Liberals be like, "Hold my beer..."
I don't see this as discrimination. They didn't refuse the gay couple service. They refused them a specific service. They refused them a service they don't afford to any other clientele (unless one wishes to equate homosexual and heterosexual marriage perfectly). Now, anti-gay activists tried to split hairs like this in their final stand against gay marriage. "In the eyes of the state everyone is equal...every man is free to marry a woman, and every woman is free to marry a man." That didn't hold up because, there, the state is actively discriminating by defining the boundaries of marriage. In the eyes of the state we are all citizens, so "every citizen should have the right to marry any other citizen he or she chooses" is how the state maintains an even hand. Consenting adults, citizen choice, equal treatment via governance for all.

A few differences. First, a bakery isn't the government. Private sector vs. the public sector. I fiercely seek to defend the private sector. Now, I agree with the Civil Rights Act despite that it infringes on this, and I definitely don't approve of bakeries denying service based on race or sexual orientation, but that doesn't mean we should forget that the private sector should have much more latitude in managing itself. Again, they didn't deny ANY service to the gay couple insofar as I know. They denied a specific service that violated their religious beliefs (or at least their backwater interpretation of Christianity).

Second, if one wishes to get clever, then one could argue that they didn't even deny them a service afforded to heterosexuals. Just make a heterosexual marriage cake. This further demonstrates their willingness to service this couple as they would any heterosexual. The owners didn't deny them a heterosexual cake for their wedding, or for a friends' wedding.

Going beyond this is simply government overreach, IMO. After all, evidently, homosexuality is a behavior. Let's ignore research into the behavior and genetic contributors. At the end of the day engaging in heterosexual or homosexual relationships is a behavior. You may be born more with a predisposition, but you act on that predisposition (as opposed to being born black or male where you simply exist as a black male). So where does it stop? Where does discrimination end? What is a Muslim comes in and tells me he wants a decorate word cake, something I do for many customers, but he wants it to say, "Death to the Infidels! Death to America!" Hell, it doesn't even have to be that titillating. It could be, "Allah is the One and Only True God". It could be pro-ISIS. Can that person now claim discrimination if I deny them that word cake? Religion is also a behavior, after all. I wonder if, ironically, a Christian (such as a WBC member) went into a bakery shop run by gays and demanded a cake that said, "Death to F--s". Is denying him that service discrimination? After all, they made word cakes for other customers.

I just don't understand where it stops. Where does the customer's rights end? Where does the business owner's right to draw a line in the sand begin?

No, they did not. They denied them a specific service. If they denied them any service whatsoever based on their sexual orientation, indeed, this would be cut and dry. But this case appears more complicated than that.

So your rebuttal already derailed in these first three sentences. Try again. I'm interested in the strongest counterargument here, possible. This case isn't as simple as a restaurant turning away someone for being black. It seems more similar to, for example, a vegetarian restaurant that denies a man a who requests a dish be made with meat (he brings the meat to add to the dish). That's still a messy metaphor.

Better: this man works for the Tyson Food Company. On the behalf of the company he is hosting an event where they will be promoting the interests of the meat packing industry while disseminating "information" (i.e. propaganda) to the public that portrays their business in a favorable moral light as it pertains to animals while also promoting their products. They will be serving Tyson foods. Well, some local vegan catering company is known for the best rice/whatever, at the best price, and is one of the few local businesses that can accommodate the portions this man needs to aid him in holding Tyson Food's event (ignore that Tyson is more than capable of doing everything in-house for the sake of the hypothetical). The vegan company conscientiously objects, and refuses service to this man. This is a service they provide to everyone else.

Simply because meat eaters are the majority can they not suffer discrimination? Keep in mind this is just one hypothetical. At what point is the government robbing private business owners of exercising their moral codes in the most meaningful way possible-- by putting their money (losses) where their mouths are?

This case troubles me greatly. I don't care about the Christian couple's politics. Obviously I don't agree with them. But I don't wish to become them. I think there must be clear boundaries preventing government overreach.

So the cake was already made? I don't really care about unisex plastic models at the top, but typically, wedding cakes are made to order. Each one is custom. If they denied them a cake off the shelves, then the discrimination is apparent because that specific cake was available to the public. When you ask someone to specifically build a cake for you, though, I see a change in the nature of the service. Suddenly each cake is a case-by-case service. So, you haven't merely asked them to design a nondescript wedding cake; you have asked them to build a specific wedding cake for a specific event.

I've already answered this question in the negative. Are you being obtuse? This is why I wanted to focus on the nature of how these services are provided.

This is a thread specifically debating the integrity of the law, so the argument "it's the law" is at best meaningless, and at worst a retreat.

Again, grocery stores sell steaks off the shelves, and everyone (with shirts and shoes) is free to shop. Steaks are just meat; they aren't a creation for a specific event with social or political connotations. And yes, in fact, these business owners are allowed to openly discriminate in the US (as opposed to China) so long as they are discriminating equally, which, paradoxically, isn't discrimination at all. For example, a Hindu grocer would probably refuse to sell steaks at all in his grocery store. Yes, that is allowed. Yes, that is legal. He is denying the service categorically.

It isn't convoluted. The focus is on the nature of defining discrimination, and where the boundaries are for private business owners to exercise it without reprisal via the state.

Absurd argument. How does that inch us closer to Sharia Law?

A Muslim refusing to bake a custom-order cake that violates his religious beliefs achieves nothing in the way of subjecting me to the oppression of his beliefs; it only allows him more freedom-- does nothing to abridge my own. Sharia Law would dictate that I wouldn't be allowed to bake that cake in my own shop.

Yes. Do you now understand why it's important this is a trickle, not a flood, of the poor and ignorant barbarians from across the world? Do you now understand why it is important to police who comes into your country, and first educate them to secular values-- or, even better, to selectively cull only those who seek your country because they share its values, and want to escape that barbarism, not simply because they are weaker barbarians fleeing stronger barbarians? A culture cannot be better than its people. No secular humanist government with a spine will ever see its population become predominantly Sharia-advocating Sunni Muslim. That darkness cannot succeed if you don't allow it, or worse, abet it.

and/or

No. First, let's parse this from discrimination of traits which are wholly innate and cannot be changed (i.e. skin color, gender, etc). We are not talking about traits. We are talking about beliefs and behavior.

Second, again, nothing about this entails discrimination. Discrimination is intrinsic only to a denial of service to a specific group that is afforded to the general public. Custom orders (such as those involving the cake in Oregon) are inherently immune to this critique. Simply because a baker is willing to use his business to offer a custom service where he bakes cakes for heterosexual couples does not behold him to do the same for a homosexual couples. These custom services are not symmetrical.

Otherwise, where does that end? There are lots of demands (since we aren't requesting here) that a person could make for a custom order that do not violate any legal spirit, but would be incredibly offensive to me. Ask me to bake a cake that says, "Kill White People!" just because speech is free? Not me. Piss off. Find another baker.

This is a trope of a familiar, failed argument, but more appropriately deployed, here. Personally, I never found the argument that would deny homosexual civil unions by splitting hairs between same-sex vs. heterosexual couples as asymmetrical institutions (i.e. man+man is not the same as man+woman) to be compelling because it entailed a denial-of-services to gay couples on behalf of the state that are matters of secular law (ex. the classic example from the film Philadelphia where he couldn't stay with his partner in the hospital because he wasn't "immediate family"...and that's just the tip of the iceberg).

From a secular point of view, that isn't a compelling argument. The secularists among us see that these people are partners, who love each other, live together, get sick together, share bank accounts or other resources together, pay taxes together, and intertwine their lives in a virtually identical way to heterosexual couples. Thus, at least in the eyes of the State, pertaining to legal rights, they should be afforded equal rights.

But we're no longer talking about the State. We are now talking about private individuals, and private individuals have the right to their religious beliefs in their own private businesses. They are not denying anyone the right to marry. They are not denying them state rights. They aren't even denying them the right to shop in their stores off the shelves, or to custom order those same heterosexual wedding cakes. They are denying a specific service, not a general service. They are denying it (a homosexual wedding cakes) to heterosexuals the same as they are denying it to homosexuals. So I don't see how this violates the Civil Rights Act.

Hell, this isn't even a matter of minority oppression. Gays might be a minority, but people who support gay marriage are not the minority, anymore. So your hypothetical there deviates from reality, and the metaphor lacks weight.

I acknowledge the weight of logic behind the Civil Rights Act, but this isn't that. This is government overreach. This is liberal bullying.

Custom ordering by its nature is a special, unique service.

There. That's how to be right in very few words.

No, that's not true. Icing decorations, supplied figurines, the shaping of the cake itself, and other characteristics of custom cakes (such as wedding cakes are by their very nature when they aren't ordered off the shelf) can distinguish a homosexual wedding cake from a heterosexual wedding cake-- objectively.

If this was about him denying a shelf cake to a gay couple, then the gay couple would be in the right, and they would have a discrimination cake. I'm not wasting more time familiarizing myself with the details of this case because this started with the Oregon bakers, and that showed the true face of liberalism in this argument. I'm debating the liberals where they staked their argument, there.

Offensive to whom? To me? Certainly. But I'm just one guy. That which offends people (or what they consider "problematic") is subjective, changing from person to person, so you've staked your argument on quicksand.

If he denied a cookie-cutter cake offered to the public to these people simple because they were gay, then they will win the discrimination suit, and rightly so. That doesn't address my argument. My argument already reinforced that view.

Again, I'm speaking to the grander liberal agenda, here. I've not forgotten it, and I don't intend to allow them to nibble away at it with disingenuous goalpost-shifts of focus.

It absolutely does. Custom orders are by their nature unique, not aspecific, so any argument of discrimination is by definition not on solid ground from the outset.

If the baker isn't denying the gay couple the right to purchase the same products the rest of the public does off the shelves, then he isn't discriminating. Furthermore, he isn't even denying them the right to a custom order, is he? He is denying them the right to make a specific custom order; one that he similarly doesn't deny to heterosexual couples or the rest of the general public (i.e. he wouldn't make a custom homosexual wedding cake to sell to a heterosexual couple).

There is no discrimination here. There is a private businessman exercising personal belief in the only space that he can while not violating secular law.

No, he is not fulfilling a custom order=-- the "event" is irrelevant to the baker. The order is what involves him. If he isn't denying more generalized orders, then there is no discrimination. Your argument doesn't even pretend to address the points I raised. You just skirt the issue by exclaiming "it's discrimination" without being able to describe what about the denial-of-service entails discrimination.

Frankly, I think most liberals need to be re-educated on the concept of discrimination, and what it entails. The argument that "There is no such thing as a gay wedding cake" is truly and profoundly blind. It's as puerile and determined to ignore basic concrete facts of reality as any I've ever seen.

It's a loser. Go back to the drawing board. There is no fruit to be found down that path.

I have yet to hear a response to the simple argument that he isn't even denying a custom order to gay couples. He's denying a specific custom order.

I've literally boiled down the argument to such a dense expression that it can be mostly voiced in the two sentence above, and yet still nobody opposing my viewpoint even pretends to address that.
 
This setup against the guy should be more troubling for people but they can't see without their tribalism glasses on.
 
As a Christian who supported him when it came to the wedding cake, it's hard for me to take up for him here. It's a stupid request, but it's as basic as a cake gets and isn't religious in any way. It just comes off as petty.
It was a bullshit request specifically framed to make him say no.

If the want to break him and drive him out of town they should do so openly instead of hiding their intent behind obvious traps.
 
Deut 22:5
A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

The bible if full of bullshit sayings that no one follows. According to this one we should kill all gays. Do you want to enforce this one to?

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 18.32
 
Civil Rights Act of 1964 BTFO

I respectfully disagree. The civil rights act that prevents discrimination based on race, sex, sexual orientations, etc applies to access to public places and employment. Nowhere in that important law does it state that a private business has to oblige a request for a product, such as a cake. If anyone’s rights were violated, it is the cake maker being forced to go against his religious beliefs to make a cake. Just because there is a request, does not mean they have to make that cake against their will. Fuck that, they can go to another shop and get their cake.
 
I have many LGBTQ friends, and was the sole witness for one of my best friends lesbian courthouse wedding... and I'm totally on the baker's side.

I see his business as two-fold: One part is just selling cakes, which he seemingly will do for absolutely anybody. Part two is as an artist, and in any other form of artistry I'm pretty sure you can pick and choose what task you want to take on for whatever reason.
 
I have many LGBTQ friends, and was the sole witness for one of my best friends lesbian courthouse wedding... and I'm totally on the baker's side.

I see his business as two-fold: One part is just selling cakes, which he seemingly will do for absolutely anybody. Part two is as an artist, and in any other form of artistry I'm pretty sure you can pick and choose what task you want to take on for whatever reason.
It doesn’t get more clearly out than that. Nobody can force you to create something. That’s the nature of art and creativity. The second the state forces a form of art, it is no longer art, it is servitude and an absolute abomination of the US Constitution which all citizens should hold sacred.
 
Why would you seek out this Baker given the history? Unless it was for manufactured outrage.
Look into who is suing him this time...

A lawyer at a law firm dedicated to LGBTQ issues... THIS one smacks of activism, the case SCOTUS ruled on, I can see as being legit as far as the complaint goes.

This seems like the last time round tho, the same cast of characters is baying for blood, and the freedom crowd is still saying the same thing.
 
It doesn’t get more clearly out than that. Nobody can force you to create something. That’s the nature of art and creativity. The second the state forces a form of art, it is no longer art, it is servitude and an absolute abomination of the US Constitution which all citizens should hold sacred.

I wonder if all the people against this guy would keep the same energy if it was a case of a black tattoo artist not wanting to do one of a Confederate flag, or if a female painter didn't want to paint a picture of a guy with a huge bulge with his arm around two large breasted women?

neither of those is inherently hateful, but I would like to think that we all would respect their personal reason for not doing them just because someone asked.
 
omg just make the cake you fuckin' twit.

it's not like he's being asked to draw a giant dick on the cake. pink on the inside and blue on the outside. he can pretend its a cake for smurfette.

Check out some of the other requests he put forward. Hes a professional activist and a scumbag.
 
Look into who is suing him this time...

A lawyer at a law firm dedicated to LGBTQ issues... THIS one smacks of activism, the case SCOTUS ruled on, I can see as being legit as far as the complaint goes.

This seems like the last time round tho, the same cast of characters is baying for blood, and the freedom crowd is still saying the same thing.


The same name appeared on a request for a cake with a pentagram. The lawyer is a scumbag activist
 
The bible if full of bullshit sayings that no one follows. According to this one we should kill all gays. Do you want to enforce this one to?

And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 18.32
I never said that I wanted to enforce that.
 
Look into who is suing him this time...

A lawyer at a law firm dedicated to LGBTQ issues... THIS one smacks of activism, the case SCOTUS ruled on, I can see as being legit as far as the complaint goes.

This seems like the last time round tho, the same cast of characters is baying for blood, and the freedom crowd is still saying the same thing.

It's blatant activism. It's as clear cut as anything can be. They literally said anything they could to this man to offend him into not selling them a run of the mill cake in order to destroy him, the same man that was already harassed for his religious beliefs as per the court. It's embarrassing.
 
This shit is so petty.
1)why do you want to force someone to make you a cake in the first place? Do you think you are going to get good quality?
2)Instead of dealing with the bullshit. Make the cake, make it horrible. Like worse cake ever. Fuck em.
3) Either we can refuse service for religious reasons or not. Decide and lets move on.
 
Back
Top