WAR ROOM LOUNGE V11: Now With More

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Lol its a bit tragic, but such is life. Homo economicus are the rule, the model to replicate, and anything that counters that must be shamed and de-legitimized. Keep doing what you're doing and disregard the bullshit. Theres a lot of possibilities for historians, especially in public policy.
There really are. It's a god damn shame more instructors in college dont talk about public history, or take their classes to archives. I started public history internships when I was still at community college. Just finished my first pro contract as a consulting historian.
From small seeds and so forth.
 
You know, it's funny
I'm a married man, but I will say women actually dig it when I talk about being a historian
It's good to have something different going on than everyone else in the room
And the hipster chicks reeally dig it
This is more awkward than a paraplegic who only can't move his arms.
 
This is more awkward than a paraplegic who only can't move his arms.
"Hey bebe let's head over to special collections and scrounge us up some archival sources.
I got a dynamite collection on reserve...."
 
"Hey bebe let's head over to special collections and scrounge us up some archival sources.
I got a dynamite collection on reserve...."
Tell me you've seen the original Magna Carta and I will have your babies right now.
 
Tell me you've seen the original Magna Carta and I will have your babies right now.
Nah that archive would just turn into an orgy pit if we had it tho
Very little work would get done man
 
There really are. It's a god damn shame more instructors in college dont talk about public history, or take their classes to archives. I started public history internships when I was still at community college. Just finished my first pro contract as a consulting historian.
From small seeds and so forth.

History is important. The crumbs of men laid upon you to marvel as a gift for your wonderful eyes...
 
It's hardly an "accusation." Your thinking on the issue appears irrational otherwise. If I'm wrong (about both the irrationality of your position on immigration and the motive), by all means, educate me. Given what we know about the impact of immigration on crime and various aspects of the economy, what we know about aging patterns and birthrates, and what we know about trends in unauthorized immigration in America (the huge drop in illegal crossings over the past decade and the declines in the total unauthorized immigrant population over that period, for example), why would you now see this as an important issue that we should divert scarce resources to? I'm gathering that you support Trump's shift in priority for ICE from catching violent criminals who shouldn't be here to harassing ordinary people. Why is that? And given that you normally present yourself as a supporter of the U.S. Constitution, why do you make an exception in this case?

I would need to write a book to address all of this.

I am a textualist-originalist. Article I, Section 8 only grants Congress the authority to deal with "naturalization", and never "immigration". Therefore, under the 10th Amendment, this is a states' rights issue. All currently existing immigration legislation (e.g., the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965) is unconstitutional.

However, leaving immigration to the states is not feasible as it was in the 18th century. Therefore, I call for an immediate constitutional amendment granting to the federal government the ability to secure our borders and regulate immigration.

From there, the first priority would be border security. Your response commits a common error---conflation of legal and illegal immigration. Although I do support a reduction in many forms of legal immigration (a topic for another day which you and I have touched on before), illegal immigration is a more pressing issue.

For example, I'm sure you saw this headline in today's paper:

11-Time Deportee Attacked Wife with Chainsaw in Front of Children, Say Police
https://www.breitbart.com/texas/201...ith-chainsaw-in-front-of-children-say-police/
You and I have discussed previously the too-frequent instances of multiple-time deportees committing heinous crimes in the USA. With real border security, the vast majority of these crimes would not be committed. In my estimation, a southern border wall would be an excellent investment. For approximately $20 billion and minimal annual upkeep costs, people like the fine gentleman described in the article would have a very difficult time regaining entry after their first deportation. There are other benefits to such a barrier, some of which I will mention below.

Now to briefly address a few of your minor points:

  • Given what we know about the impact of immigration on crime...

Immigration increases crime, obviously.

Legal immigration probably reduces the overall crime rate, which I think is what you meant to say.

In my view, the US population is already too high. I would like the population to fall by about 33%.

I'm gathering that you support Trump's shift in priority for ICE from catching violent criminals who shouldn't be here to harassing ordinary people.

It's more accurate to say that Obama shifted interior enforcement priorities to target only those who were convicted criminals. Under Obama's 2014 enforcement memoranda, 87% of the estimated illegal alien population would not be an enforcement priority. FY 2016 was the first year this new policy was fully implemented, and the results were alarming. Over 92% of those removed were criminal convicts, and the total number of interior removals fell to only 65,000. The last time the total number of interior removals was this low was around 2005. I would be more comfortable with a 65%/35% criminal/non-criminal split in interior removals. In FY 2017, we hit 84%/16%, so we're moving in the right direction.

the huge drop in illegal crossings over the past decade

This isn't the first time you've equated apprehensions with illegal crossings. Obviously the former is a decent proxy for the latter, but it is only a proxy.

More importantly, this is a case in which the underlying quantity is more useful than the rate of change. In FY 2017, we had over 400,000 apprehensions in the SW border region. With a proper physical barrier, we could cut that number down well below 50,000. That's good for the migrants who are attempting the dangerous journey and it would free up manpower/funds.

And given that you normally present yourself as a supporter of the U.S. Constitution, why do you make an exception in this case?

I already addressed this above, but I have interacted with you so much over the years that I think I know what you're getting at even when you don't make it explicit. You probably think I am suspending my concern for civil liberties in the name of interior immigration enforcement. I'm not. I wish for all people in our borders to be afforded 4th Amendment protections. I oppose excessive use of force. However, presuming the necessary constitutional amendment (detailed above) has been ratified, I oppose your proposal ("abolish ICE") on the grounds that interior enforcement is a necessary aspect of immigration enforcement.
 
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Before addressing this, I'll just thank you for a detailed and reasonable response.

I am a textualist-originalist. Article I, Section 8 only grants Congress the authority to deal with "naturalization", and never "immigration". Therefore, under the 10th Amendment, this is a states' rights issue. All currently existing immigration legislation (e.g., the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965) is unconstitutional.

However, leaving immigration to the states is not feasible as it was in the 18th century. Therefore, I call for an immediate constitutional amendment granting to the federal government the ability to secure our borders and regulate immigration.

Would be fair to say that you support a Constitutional amendment, but until one passes, you support simply violating the Constitution (as you see it)? Not knocking (I think it's wise, actually--that strict adherence to any system leads to absurdities or atrocities), but I think it should be made explicit.

From there, the first priority would be border security. Your response commits a common error---conflation of legal and illegal immigration.

It's not an error. Illegal immigration is a subcategory of immigration, and the points I made are true with respect to it as well as to immigration generally.

Now to briefly address a few of your minor points:

  • Given what we know about the impact of immigration on crime...

Immigration increases crime, obviously.

And reduces crime rates and the likelihood that any individual person will be the victim of crime. I think that's a real and very common cognitive error (there's even a name for it--"denominator neglect"). People have a hard time getting their head around the concept. Good illustration here:

https://teekhapan.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/the-denominator-neglect/

In this experiment participants are given a choice to draw a red marble, out of two urns and win a prize. The first urn contains 10 marbles of which one is red. The second urn contains 100 marbles, of which 8 are red. It doesn’t take rocket science to figure out that the chances of drawing a red marble and in the process winning a prize are higher in case of the first urn. The probability of winning in the first case is 10 per cent and in the second case 8 per cent.

Nevertheless, as Daniel Kahneman writes in Thinking, Fast and Slow: “About 30-40% of student s[basically participants in the experiment] choose the urn with the larger number of winning marbles, rather than the urn that provides a better chance of winning…Vivid imagery contributes to denominator neglect…When I think of the small urn, I see a single red marble…When I think of the larger urn, I see eight winning marbles.”

In my view, the US population is already too high. I would like the population to fall by about 33%.

This is unthinkable to me, seems inhuman, even putting aside the disastrous impact on quality of life such a trend would cause (that is, assuming ignorance about the economic impact, it's still hard to imagine a human being supporting that).

I'm gathering that you support Trump's shift in priority for ICE from catching violent criminals who shouldn't be here to harassing ordinary people.
It's more accurate to say that Obama shifted interior enforcement priorities to target only those who were convicted criminals.

Equally accurate, but mine was more relevant to current policy.

the huge drop in illegal crossings over the past decade

This isn't the first time you've equated apprehensions with illegal crossings. Obviously the former is a decent proxy for the latter, but it is only a proxy.

I suspect it won't be the last, as it is, indeed, a good proxy. The alternate explanation for the numbers would be that we're getting much worse at catching people who attempt to cross, which would contradict a lot of what we know (about increased enforcement measures, the unauthorized population, and natural trends in immigration patterns between nations even absent enforcement, for example). I actually think that the proxy likely understates the reduction in illegal crossing.

And given that you normally present yourself as a supporter of the U.S. Constitution, why do you make an exception in this case?
I already addressed this above, but I have interacted with you so much over the years that I think I know what you're getting at even when you don't make it explicit. You probably think I am suspending my concern for civil liberties in the name of interior immigration enforcement. I'm not. I wish for all people in our borders to be afforded 4th Amendment protections. I oppose excessive use of force. However, presuming the necessary constitutional amendment (detailed above) has been ratified, I oppose your proposal ("abolish ICE") on the grounds that interior enforcement is a necessary aspect of immigration enforcement.

It's both civil liberties and "textualist-orginalism" that are conflicting here (you note the Constitution calls for open national borders above). But if we agree that ICE should be abolished until a Constitutional amendment is passed, I'm fine with that. And note that I do not oppose interior enforcement, just as my support for abolishing the DEA shouldn't imply support for full drug legalization (or declining enforcement of existing laws). I think law enforcement should be prioritized according to threat levels. So by all means, make an effort to deport criminal unauthorized immigrants, or gangs, and take down drug-dealing operations because those are things that justify the use of resources. I'd also have no problem with mandating E-Verify nationally, which I think would actually do more to reduce illegal immigration than the reprioritizing of ICE or a border wall.
 
SPX was in the WR way longer than six months, too.

And I think we can use an influx of people who *aren't* raging assholes.
I could be wrong but I think I remember him being one of the more confrontational posters in threads about the Confederacy. He would go pretty hard at people calling the confederates traitors.

That's the tricky thing about neo-confederates, you don't necessarily want to accuse them of racism (mostly because the word makes anyone go into self-defense mode), but it's just such a common denominator among them...
 
I could be wrong but I think I remember him being one of the more confrontational posters in threads about the Confederacy. He would go pretty hard at people calling the confederates traitors.

That's the tricky thing about neo-confederates, you don't necessarily want to accuse them of racism (mostly because the word makes anyone go into self-defense mode), but it's just such a common denominator among them...

As far as I know the dude was from Utah. Fwiw.
 
Yeah, not even close to being like a cover band. Look up the original Hamlet (Amleth) story, for example. It's pretty lame. And then there was a play version (lost to history) that was widely mocked at the time. IIRC, Harold Bloom had an unconventional theory that it was actually written by Shakespeare--rather than Kyd as more people think--and that the embarrassment of the reception of the first try is why he made the other one so good. It is a bit of a mystery why he did all the stuff you're talking about for audiences that wouldn't appreciate it.

The authorship "controversy" is just classism leading to a CT. To some people, there's no way a commoner could be the greatest writer in the history of the language.



Cool! Details?



I think it goes smoothly once you start rolling. But yeah, most versions have lots of footnotes, which are helpful.

Since @Cubo de Sangre brought up Bogart, there's an exchange in Hamlet that reminds me of that kind of thing. Hamlet had killed Polonius, and Claudius heard about it, and wants the body:
The classism part of the second Shakespeare on the grassy knoll theory is what struck me. We have evidence that Shakespeare was probably discriminated against on class grounds, but the people carrying that forward today are all over the map, like it's just a secondary bit of trivia, or neat little mystery that no longer has classist overtones. Would be fun to try to trace that rumor back.

The essay is about how Shakespeare uses romantic love subversively in Midsummer, against everything from romantic love itself to societal authority to religion, and he even attacks rationality. I don't use a post-structural approach or anything annoying like that. I see Puck as being exceptionally naughty with his closing monologue. He's begging the question about the audience being offended. The offensive nature of the play is layered really well into a silly fairy tale, and that wouldn't be obvious to the audience.

I'd be glad to talk some Hamlet with you in a couple weeks when I've finished up with it.
 
Why are you guys talking about Hamlet.

Bold opinion:
Othello >>>>>> Hamlet
 
othello-quotes-best-othello-quotes-unique-13-best-othello-board-images-on-pinterest.jpg
 
Why are you guys talking about Hamlet.

Bold opinion:
Othello >>>>>> Hamlet
I haven't looked at Othello in 20 years. I remember it being really compelling though.
 
I haven't looked at Othello in 20 years. I remember it being really compelling though.

Of all his major works, Othello feels the least dated to me and the most transferable to modern times, in that it doesn't deal with Kings and Queens and wizards and fairies and it happens to touch on a lot of phenomena particularly relevant to the West in 2018: racism and ethnonationalism, the politics of jealousy, the danger of idle hands, etc.
 
Of all his major works, Othello feels the least dated to me and the most transferable to modern times, in that it doesn't deal with Kings and Queens and wizards and fairies and it happens to touch on a lot of phenomena particularly relevant to the West in 2018: racism and ethnonationalism, the politics of jealousy, the danger of idle hands, etc.

Othello is very compelling to me as I had lived close to a similar life in my ancient years.
 
I would say that you're straining to avoid acknowledging my uncontroversial point. Racial groups vote different for biological reasons, thus non-whites have to be blocked or removed from the country. That's the claim, no?



The first one says that helicopters are a good alternative to shooting liberals on site. A reference to the practice of dropping enemies of Pinochet off of helicopters. I said combine the two points. He's arguing for murdering non-white Americans, right?



So in your view actively advocating murdering people for political disagreements is no worse than paying taxes or opposing slavery?



Yes, I'm a horrible monster because I think it's bad to kill people for political disagreements. You're defending a guy who wants to murder me.



I support your right to leave America, absolutely. In fact, start a Go Fund Me for it, and I'll contribute.
Just lol. I don’t want to murder you, and that’s just a plain weird comment to make. I even said that in my posts that I don’t wish ill upon you. That’s a pretty weird comment to make, and it kind of reflects on you personally that you would think that I would want to harm you in any way. @Cubo de Sangre this is the sort of stuff I’m talking about. The man twists things to try and make people think what he wants them to. The truth is that I don’t care about Jackie boy enough to spend time thinking about him. But I will call out manipulative behavior when I see it, so here I am, calling out a liar when I see one.
 
Just lol. I don’t want to murder you, and that’s just a plain weird comment to make. I even said that in my posts that I don’t wish ill upon you. That’s a pretty weird comment to make, and it kind of reflects on you personally that you would think that I would want to harm you in any way. @Cubo de Sangre this is the sort of stuff I’m talking about. The man twists things to try and make people think what he wants them to. The truth is that I don’t care about Jackie boy enough to spend time thinking about him. But I will call out manipulative behavior when I see it, so here I am, calling out a liar when I see one.

:) Read again.
 
:) Read again.
Couldn’t quickly find it. Does someone else want to? If so, that’s some crap. Whoever it is shouldn’t be talking like that, and it’s bullshit. That’s a line you don’t cross, and if someone crossed it, then fuck ‘em.
 
Couldn’t quickly find it. Does someone else want to? If so, that’s some crap. Whoever it is shouldn’t be talking like that, and it’s bullshit. That’s a line you don’t cross, and if someone crossed it, then fuck ‘em.

I wasn't referring to you. And I agree that it's way over the line. He says it was a "joke," but there were no joke-like elements.
 
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