What are your thoughts on head on the outside single?

[westfield]

The guillotine risk is pretty minimal unless you really screw up. If you do a high crotch right, either your head should be facing almost towards the center of your opponent, your head should be up, and you should be lifting, all of which make the guillotine hard to lock on. Or you're immediately running the pipe, which if you do it right also makes it really hard to lock on a guillotine. It's not the first TD I'd teach a white belt, but I've never gotten choked doing it. Probably your biggest risk is if you end up in a crack down, but even in that situation if you're aware of the risk it's going to be hard for someone to catch you before you can transition to a pretty safe smash passing position.

NCAA champion wrestler Jake Rosholt got caught with a guillotine from a striker in PFL 4 due to a head outside single.

 

[ArtemV]

Damn, I forgot about this thread ahah. But head on the outside single legs are fine. I have had success extending the leg out and lifting it up and doing whatever to finish it. Not difficult.
I have had success with this too, but it is slightly different headlock position:

 

[jack36767]

I wish there was a video singing the word “necro” to the game of thrones intro

 

[MaxMMA]

I'd say it's risky even for experienced grapplers. Besides the risk of being guillotined, there are just too many spider monkeys out there that can cross face you and take your back in a flash if you leave your back open like that.

I always tell my students to switch to the double, bodylock oror hi crotch pickup if they find their head outside on the single.

 

[jack36767]

The fear of the crossface in high crotch/“head outside single” in both wrestling and Bjj has always somewhat bemused me.

 

[tekkenfan]

for mma its the best single 90% of guys this is there go to shot now its all rory mac does when he shoots jake shields ben askren gsp does it now vs bisping.

you just have to make sure you have very strong posture neck straight up. a lot of guys try to choke you on instinct which makes the takedown easy. head inside singles guys are just so good at defending it now, not that it cant work but you cant whizzer a head outside single

most guys try to cross face you but you should be dumping them before they can get a good cross face but theres good chains off it incase they try frankie did a good one vs bj penn

 

[jack36767]

Them cross facing can actually help you finish. Especially if you are in even half good good position. Besides the fact that the cross face as a technique has been ruined by “dad coaches”. Not ruined but mistaught

 

[tekkenfan]

Them cross facing can actually help you finish. Especially if you are in even half good good position. Besides the fact that the cross face as a technique has been ruined by “dad coaches”. Not ruined but mistaught

this is what he did to bj in there second fight i think it was anyways i use it if they try to cross face me form single as well i really like this move


but depend son the sport in bjj i wouldnt do head outside singles much guys dont have as good of tdd in bjj tourneys vs mma guys i like snatching a single 50% of guys will pull guard and dont need a good finish usually i think in jiu jitsu tournaments singles are the best

 

[tekkenfan]

I'd say it's risky even for experienced grapplers. Besides the risk of being guillotined, there are just too many spider monkeys out there that can cross face you and take your back in a flash if you leave your back open like that.

I always tell my students to switch to the double, bodylock oror hi crotch pickup if they find their head outside on the single.

its something you gotta drill alot so you are comfortable with someone trying t choke you some people panic when hands get aroudn there neck it took me even years to relax and not worry and realize as long as i have good technique posture and hand fight ill be safe 90% of the time

jake shields is first guy i really noticed doing it at high levels and i sue to scream wtf dude i thought it was horrible tehcnique but realized he never gets choked and it makes his takedowns easier its about confidence really in grappling you can go outside the realm of basics if you have solid basics to save yourself

 

[MaxMMA]

its something you gotta drill alot so you are comfortable with someone trying t choke you some people panic when hands get aroudn there neck it took me even years to relax and not worry and realize as long as i have good technique posture and hand fight ill be safe 90% of the time

jake shields is first guy i really noticed doing it at high levels and i sue to scream wtf dude i thought it was horrible tehcnique but realized he never gets choked and it makes his takedowns easier its about confidence really in grappling you can go outside the realm of basics if you have solid basics to save yourself

I agree 100%. I also tell my students the same thing. The best way to defend the guillotine is to finish the shot.

 

[Xuh]

Them cross facing can actually help you finish. Especially if you are in even half good good position. Besides the fact that the cross face as a technique has been ruined by “dad coaches”. Not ruined but mistaught

What does a 'Dad coach' crossface look like and how does it differ to a 'Real Tough Guy™ coach' crossface?

 

[shunyata]

"raises hand"

As a lazy judoka with upright posture, a shit load of people have single legged me over time.

Shit I even bait with it depending on who I'm facing.

The head outside is such an easy guillotine that motherfuckers have caught me on the entry but I could still lock it up while airborne and tap them after landing.

To paraphrase Holt, while you can have it outside for a moment in a chain, you generally want to drive that head into the center line or be rising along the center line. If you have to go outside to execute, don't linger there long.

 

[jack36767]

What does a 'Dad coach' crossface look like and how does it differ to a 'Real Tough Guy™ coach' crossface?

“You see here boys/Johnny/son, you gots to be reeel physical with that there crossface. You gots to be meen and grinds it and gets their nose, etc” very similar to “real tough guy” coach crossface. Just add extra dad coach stupidity.

Apparently the idea that the purpose of the crossface is to secure the arm, and that simply being physical and popping the crossface in the process of securing the arm... without extra stupid ineffective extra shit, is both MORE physical and more effective at securing pins.. is beyond comphrehension

 

[Xuh]

“You see here boys/Johnny/son, you gots to be reeel physical with that there crossface. You gots to be meen and grinds it and gets their nose, etc” very similar to “real tough guy” coach crossface. Just add extra dad coach stupidity.

Apparently the idea that the purpose of the crossface is to secure the arm, and that simply being physical and popping the crossface in the process of securing the arm... without extra stupid ineffective extra shit, is both MORE physical and more effective at securing pins.. is beyond comphrehension

I see, I can understand the 'real' aim of crossfacing somebody being to capture the arm to work a pin/turn etc if you're already on the mat, but would it make a difference on the feet?

coz the ol' "stick it in there real good to get him offa ya" style of crossfacing is all I've heard taught... on the feet, at least... (and in particular, as a counter to a head outside single)

 

[jack36767]

I see, I can understand the 'real' aim of crossfacing somebody being to capture the arm to work a pin/turn etc if you're already on the mat, but would it make a difference on the feet?

coz the ol' "stick it in there real good to get him offa ya" style of crossfacing is all I've heard taught... on the feet, at least... (and in particular, as a counter to a head outside single)

I don’t teach it unless it’s to redirect the head to the inside or If the guy is flat on his stomach or close to it clinging for dear life

 

[grapplejuice]

These days I find myself doing the snatch High C to dump and if the dump fails switch to the double like Holt shows. It's extra legit.

If I have to change levels and end up on a knee I'm doing it like Shultz in this video. This is what Jake Shields did to Hendo too. Keep good head position (and you won't get guillotined/cross faced), don't switch too fast and never lose "the shoulder race", bc if they turn the corner you get crotch lift/rolled and if they sprawl and create space you get smashed on, so hug the leg tight and "shoulder strap" the leg.

Use their leg to put them into a less favorable position.
+
Stand up/ drive the double.
=
Profit.

 

[tekkenfan]

These days I find myself doing the snatch High C to dump and if the dump fails switch to the double like Holt shows. It's extra legit.

If I have to change levels and end up on a knee I'm doing it like Shultz in this video. This is what Jake Shields did to Hendo too. Keep good head position (and you won't get guillotined/cross faced), don't switch too fast and never lose "the shoulder race", bc if they turn the corner you get crotch lift/rolled and if they sprawl and create space you get smashed on, so hug the leg tight and "shoulder strap" the leg.

Use their leg to put them into a less favorable position.
+
Stand up/ drive the double.
=
Profit.

man dave seemed like an amazing guy so sad what happened to him i wonder what type if impact he would have had on wrestling or possibly mma/grappling if he have lived on since his brother became a black belt eventually imagine them both being jiu jitsu coaches

 

[judoka loca]

In high school wrestling, the high crotch was the first takedown I learned, and I used it with the "run the pipe" finish to take down much more experienced wrestlers without being crossfaced or front headlocked, and I went on to use the same move in no-gi grappling with success. (Granted, I was a competent judo player at that time and had cleaned house in competition)

That move is excellent if done properly, close up to the body and with a deep penetration step. High crotch also opens up the opportunity to switch to a double or other finishes like arching throw. I see no why reason why you shouldn't do it, although obviously a sloppy one will get you guillotined. Teach it to beginners on the same day you teach the single leg, but make sure they know how to set it up and do it properly.