What China has accomplished: Amazing

Well, China is a Superpower. I would say they control and influence much of the world and the economy. Heck, everything these days is made in China. The U.S. debt to China is $1.2 trillion, as of May 2017. If they request payment, it would pretty much destroy the U.S. economy as we know it. The have about 300 nuclear warheads and some are Hydrogen bombs. The have a thriving Space Program, not just to launch satellites, but they plan landings on the moon and missions to Mars. Largest conventional military in the world. Highly advanced, rich, and educated in some areas and also backwards, and poor in other areas. A lot like the Russians. Definitely don't want to piss them off. We want them as our friends. They could destroy North Korea economically if they wanted to.

Prospect for U.S. and Chinese relations...


That's not how the Chinese owned debt works. They can't ask for it all at once for one. Second, their currency is directly tied to our economy because of the debt owed. If they tried to ruin the United States over debt, it would crash their currency. China can't and wouldn't have any interest in trying to do something like asking for their debts to be paid back.

https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-debt-to-china-how-much-does-it-own-3306355
 
China has by far the highest rate of executions, and that's just what they report.
Well, yeah, no surprise right? They are communists. Do you know much about Mao's reign of terror? Because leading the world in executions is quite gentle compared to Mao. Mao clowned the death tolls of Stalin and Hitler, possibly combined.
 
Well, yeah, no surprise right? They are communists. Do you know much about Mao's reign of terror? Because leading the world in executions is quite gentle compared to Mao. Mao clowned the death tolls of Stalin and Hitler, possibly combined.

I'm talking about modern China, not historical.
 
Ok, let's try this. If American companies didn't outsource labor to China but Russian companies did then what would happen to American companies?

Also, that's not what comparative advantage is. Comparative advantage always exists, no matter what and there's no way to eliminate it. You described absolute advantage.

Omg that was terrible. Russia has never made anything but weapons. Nothing would have happened to american companies, or course. What were you getting at? Lol.. So, Russia would then habe stopped buying American products?? Well, we don't make them now, so can they still buy them from us?? Lol
 
I'm talking about modern China, not historical.
I am aware of that. And I was comparing modern China to the China of just a few decades back, which was also modern and in which time period many of the current leaders of China rose to power. And there's no comparison. It's like Stalin to Kruschev.

I'm not defending the current Chinese regime, just putting it into perspective. They kill too many thousands, and it is unjust. A generation back they killed too many tens of millions, and that injustice was so different in quantity as to be different in kind.
 
Decades? More like centuries.
Good point that is often forgotten. When liberal democracy fails in post-Saddam Iraq, we don't naturally blame liberal democracy but the culture and the society of the country which makes sense. In both Russia and China you had centuries of totalitarian and exploitative rule built into their culture so that when a communist takeover resulted in continued totalitarianism its simply a continuation of their histories in a sense. I don't want to deflect all the blame from communism itself, that's not fair or accurate. But I do find it odd that the pre-communist culture of many communist regimes isn't considered relevant by the right when culture is a variable often mentioned by them in other contexts like the lack of democracy in the Middle East or the low human development of Sub-Saharan Africa or even the poorer outcomes of African Americans within the US.
 
I am aware of that. And I was comparing modern China to the China of just a few decades back, which was also modern and in which time period many of the current leaders of China rose to power. And there's no comparison. It's like Stalin to Kruschev.

I'm not defending the current Chinese regime, just putting it into perspective. They kill too many thousands, and it is unjust. A generation back they killed too many tens of millions, and that injustice was so different in quantity as to be different in kind.
I kinda get that. Look at what had happened to China up to 1950 in the previous 300 years. How could you keep the country together without some totalitarianism?

Without some iron fist on to the people, China would be a cesspool of competing provinces/ countries and political unrest. The country would be a shithole instead of what you see happening today.

What China does is necessary to not slip into chaos.
 
I kinda get that. Look at what had happened to China up to 1950 in the previous 300 years. How could you keep the country together without some totalitarianism?

Without some iron fist on to the people, China would be a cesspool of competing provinces/ countries and political unrest. The country would be a shithole instead of what you see happening today.

What China does is necessary to not slip into chaos.
Well, the totalitarianism of Mao was worse than anything in the previous 300 years though, right? Even worse than the Taiping Rebellion. There's no real excuse for his Marxist inhumanity. But I would apply your argument to the Chinese government 's actions between 1980 or so and now. Historically, a country often enters a dangerous phase when a very bad government begins to get better.


They've liberalized to a great degree in a short time. They have a very long way to go and remain very illiberal. @Rational Poster is on the money to criticize them out for leading the world in executions. I'm not saying they are good. Just that they are better.
 
Well, yeah, no surprise right? They are communists. Do you know much about Mao's reign of terror? Because leading the world in executions is quite gentle compared to Mao. Mao clowned the death tolls of Stalin and Hitler, possibly combined.
Honestly that's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. Of the top 10 most lethal wars in human history, six of them occurred exclusively within China. Two of the others ones are the World Wars and in the 2nd one Chinese casualties were only 2nd to Soviet casualties. That's mainly because China has always had a fuckton of people so that whenever anything bad happens in China a whole lot of people suffer. So just using the raw death toll isn't really that helpful. I don't think you can say Mao was worse than Stalin or Hitler just because the death count was higher when Red China's population was probably higher than that of the USSR and Nazi Germany combined.
 
I kinda get that. Look at what had happened to China up to 1950 in the previous 300 years. How could you keep the country together without some totalitarianism?

Without some iron fist on to the people, China would be a cesspool of competing provinces/ countries and political unrest. The country would be a shithole instead of what you see happening today.

What China does is necessary to not slip into chaos.
I think you might have a point. I don't agree that you had to have the kind of totalitarian rule that Mao brought. Maybe China would be freer and better off if it were a bunch of independent provinces. But I will say that experiencing the kind of intense subjugation and destruction that China did prior to the communist revolution is the kind of thing that opens up the political arena for more radical actors like Mao.
 
Well, the totalitarianism of Mao was worse than anything in the previous 300 years though, right? Even worse than the Taiping Rebellion. There's no real excuse for his Marxist inhumanity. But I would apply your argument to the Chinese government 's actions between 1980 or so and now. Historically, a country often enters a dangerous phase when a very bad government begins to get better.


They've liberalized to a great degree in a short time. They have a very long way to go and remain very illiberal. @Rational Poster is on the money to criticize them out for leading the world in executions. I'm not saying they are good. Just that they are better.

People like to make pretend these Asian countries are homogenous racial utopias to promote their racist views in America. That's it.

They have their problems like everyone else, like the fact that China has a massive prison population, huge issues with rape, pedophilia, human trafficking, counterfeiting, violent corporate competition and intellectual theft, disgruntled indigenous populations carrying out incredibly violent knife and bomb attacks, and a level of income inequality that we wouldn't be able to stomach here even with our historically high level of income inequality currently. There are just about as many people living in poverty in China today than there are people in the entire United States.
 
So just using the raw death toll isn't really that helpful. I don't think you can say Mao was worse than Stalin or Hitler just because the death count was higher when Red China's population was probably higher than that of the USSR and Nazi Germany combined.
You make a cogent point, and in terms of percentage of total population, Pol Pot was by far the most outstanding totalitarian murderer.

Still, there is certainly also a point in saying that the guy with the higher death count was worse, even if he had to expend less effort to get there. To the extent that each individaual human life has value, absolute totals matter.
 
People like to make pretend these Asian countries are homogenous racial utopias to promote their racist views in America. That's it.

They have their problems like everyone else, like the fact that China has a massive prison population, huge issues with rape, pedophilia, human trafficking, counterfeiting, violent corporate competition and intellectual theft, disgruntled indigenous populations carrying out incredibly violent knife and bomb attacks, and a level of income inequality that we wouldn't be able to stomach here even with our historically high level of income inequality currently. There are just about as many people living in poverty in China today than there are people in the entire United States.
I was just reading an article last night about the Taiping Rebellion that emphasized the racial differences between the mainly Hakka and non-Han soldiers of the Taiping and the almost entirely Han armies of the Imperials. I'm no expert on that time period or that war; it was the first I'd heard of that.
 
I was just reading an article last night about the Taiping Rebellion that emphasized the racial differences between the mainly Hakka and non-Han soldiers of the Taiping and the almost entirely Han armies of the Imperials. I'm no expert on that time period or that war; it was the first I'd heard of that.

People like to make pretend China is homogenous, hell so does China. That is their government's main message to the world and their people, a unified country. So, even if they're mostly racially homogenous, they're not really actually homogenous.

But if you really dig into their history, you can see that is about as far from true as possible. They've quite literally been at war with themselves for thousands of years. This rivalry still manifests through this day with the regional corporate barons lording over cities and provinces and competing with one another for their place in the sun. Now, they're certainly not as fractured as they've been historically, but they're no United States yet, that's for sure.
 
People like to make pretend China is homogenous, hell so does China. That is their government's main message to the world and their people, a unified country. So, even if they're mostly racially homogenous, they're not really actually homogenous.

But if you really dig into their history, you can see that is about as far from true as possible. They've quite literally been at war with themselves for thousands of years. This rivalry still manifests through this day with the regional corporate barons lording over cities and provinces and competing with one another for their place in the sun. Now, they're certainly not as fractured as they've been historically, but they're no United States yet, that's for sure.
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I was just reading an article last night about the Taiping Rebellion that emphasized the racial differences between the mainly Hakka and non-Han soldiers of the Taiping and the almost entirely Han armies of the Imperials. I'm no expert on that time period or that war; it was the first I'd heard of that.

Also, if you like this stuff you should check out the Spring and Autumn Annals and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

I liked the Moss Roberts translations for RTK, but there are others I'm sure. There is also the Records of the Three Kingdoms, which is more historical and less folk tale though I don't think it's all been translated yet.
 
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Well, China is a Superpower. I would say they control and influence much of the world and the economy. Heck, everything these days is made in China. The U.S. debt to China is $1.2 trillion, as of May 2017. If they request payment, it would pretty much destroy the U.S. economy as we know it. The have about 300 nuclear warheads and some are Hydrogen bombs. The have a thriving Space Program, not just to launch satellites, but they plan landings on the moon and missions to Mars. Largest conventional military in the world. Highly advanced, rich, and educated in some areas and also backwards, and poor in other areas. A lot like the Russians. Definitely don't want to piss them off. We want them as our friends. They could destroy North Korea economically if they wanted to.

Prospect for U.S. and Chinese relations...


its not a super power, its a regional power, they dont have a thriving space program, they dont have the largest military anymore, they arent THAT highly advanced...wtf?
 
Everyone in China gets around that.



Polluted cities aren't that bad if you don't have respirotory diseases.


It's their currency, not your's..



They're building a middle class. They have the largest middle class in the world.
my dude they almost cancelled the Olympics b/c the air quality was so bad in Beijing....and that's WITH their recent efforts into solar/renewable energy

I didn't even bring up the massive cities they've built (on debt, mind you) that are currently completely unoccupied....
 
my dude they almost cancelled the Olympics b/c the air quality was so bad in Beijing....and that's WITH their recent efforts into solar/renewable energy

I didn't even bring up the massive cities they've built (on debt, mind you) that are currently completely unoccupied....
I hate to be that guy -- but those cities will pay off in the event that a war ever happens. US cities get destroyed, we're fucked and move to the countryside. Chinese just walk across the street to the unoccupied ones.
 
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