What does The War Room consist of mostly?

[panamaican]

1. Go back and look at what part of my statement KPT quoted. He left out the presidential stuff and only quoted the cultural differences part. He specifically said no ones disagrees that there are cultural differences.

2. Of course being born black doesn't make you genetically predisposed to listen to rap or jazz or soul, or to have a fade or dreds, etc. But being born in a environment that is dominated by blacks will more than likely lead you to that culture.

I haven't seen to many black dudes from the ghetto wearing tapout tshirts, listening to country music and driving supped up ford f150's. I also haven't seen Very many educated blacks listening to Michael buble or guns and roses. Of course there are outliers but for the most part we can classify/stereotype certain activities as black white etc.

And that's where you're letting your limited personal experiences color entire races. You don't see many people, of any color, from the ghetto doing the things you're claiming as black things.

And you probably need a broader definition of "educated blacks" since the ones I know have a very broad appreciation of music, including Buble and 80's rock. Similarly, I don't know a lot of poor people, again of any color, who listen to Buble or Guns and Roses.

If You didn't know if I was white or black but I told you I was going to a MOS Def concert and then was going to see a tyler Perry movie and then would end up at a club that played mainly rap music, what race would you think I am?

Me, personally? I wouldn't think anything of it. Some of the most ardent fans of rappers like Mos Def are white. I've been in clubs in India that play exclusively hip hop music. The Tyler Perry thing, that might be mostly black. :icon_lol:

In all the places I have worked there is a difference in the basic shit that gets talked about between the races (moreso the women than men, men have a lot of sports in common). I sit around and I listen to the black women I work with talk about the shows love and hiphop, basketball wives, black ink crew, 106 and park, etc. I never hear the white women talk about that. I hear the latest gossip on rappers. ETC.

There is some small crossovers but I never see the black and white women sit around talking about the same shit. The black dudes and white dudes do a little more when sports are mentioned but as soon as rap, clubs, or anything else comes up the guys drift apart.

This is going to sound harsh but that sounds like poor people behaviors. At the higher economic regions, I've seen that blacks, whites, Asians all talk about the same things.

When I say racial differences I am not meaning it in the you are born to like rock and roll type situation, I am more meaning it in the you will more than likely have different cultural or social choices of shit to talk about, read about, entertain yourself if born into certain environments (exclusing outliers of course).

Even if people don' t like it there is just certain things that we assign to different races (in the simplistic meaning of the word, white black Mexican/latino).

There is even social differences in beliefs, Whites tend to have a decent or positive view of cops, blacks not so much. Now I am speaking from talking and asking and going in depth with probably 500 black women and 300 black dudes in all walks of life from movie theater cashier when I was younger to the military to the medical lab I work in now.

The ray rice issue was a big difference. The white women I talked to said that it was horrible and it should never have happened. Most of the black women said that she probably deserved it and that it is not uncommon for that shit to happen all the time. I probably asked 50 black women if they had ever hit a man, 90% said yes. I asked if they had ever been hit by a man, again 90% said yes. The white women were closer to 25%. When we talk about relationships, the majority of black women I spoke to EXPECT to be cheated on. They figure the guy they are with now has or is cheating on them. The white women said hell or they don't expect to be cheated on, even if they admit that they have in the past or might be currently getting cheated on.

A lot of the black men and women I talked to said that their parents never really pushed education--- YOU GOTTA REMEMBER I AM TALKING TO SCIENCE DEGREED PEOPLE HERE AS WELL.

sorry for rambling or typos, I am trying to respond and watch 2 children at the same time, LOL

I can't do this paragraph by paragraph anymore. Let's just summarize by saying that I do not share your experiences. In the world I grew up in, everyone pushed education. Even the poor blacks talked about the value of education to their kids. The cop thing has merit. The rest of it simply doesn't reflect the reality I know.

Let me say something here that's a little bit broad. People tend to surround themselves with people who reflect their view of the world. My younger brother has a tendency to surround himself with less accomplished people, he accordingly thinks that most people are far less driven. My older brother and I deal with a broader range of people and so have a less one-sided view of the world.

Not denigrating your life experiences but were you an officer in the military? Were you a scientist in the lab? Did you ever spend time with the owner of the movie theater?

I've been a fast food worker and I've hung out with people who make millions of dollars annually. I've been a lab tech and I know people who've written science textbooks for college students. I know rich people on multiple continents and poor people too.

I've dated an 18 y.o. with a kid and on welfare and I've dated the daughter of an ambassador.

I went to a community college to get a degree and I've been to a top 30 university for a degree. As a lawyer, I see people from all walks of life come into my office.

The stereotypes you're assigning to race are mostly stereotypes of low income people. You've simply conflated poor with black. Poor people all share a similar culture, where people err is that they focus on the difference between poor people in cities and poor people in rural areas and call it a difference of race, when city dwellers have always been different from rural residents even within races. But as you go up the economic ladder, you see that those differences are like saying that people who like science fiction have a different culture than people who crime dramas.

 

[panamaican]

That's a result of Republican marketing. You rarely see conservatism defended on its intellectual merits (such as they are) anymore. It's just appeals to base emotions, and the party has its own alternative media structure that simply pretends that uncomfortable facts don't exist. That's what I mean when I say the conservative movement is intellectually dead.

I may be biased here because I am conservative but I think a lot of this problem has come from the liberals. Whenever welfare reform comes up, the first thing out of their mouth is that it will unfairly affect blacks and other minorities. You never hear them say, hey more whites are on welfare, this is gonna hurt white people. No one gives a shit if it hurts white people (and that is not meant to be taken as a woo is me, poor little white people way), but the second you mention that it might hurt minorities, that is supposed to be the end of the conversation.

Yes there are some conservatives that rail on the ghetto queens, hell I am one of them because I live in a majority black town but I have always admitted that the same thing is going on in whitey Whitesville in IOWA.

The dems have made the discussion of welfare turn into a race issue.

CandT, you're wrong here and JVS is right. It wasn't liberals that created the Southern strategy. And it wasn't liberals who put "welfare queen" into the national conversation. And it wasn't liberals that fought integration. And it wasn't during a liberal President that we started shipping drugs into poor urban neighborhoods to fund wars in other countries.

Liberals are wrong on a lot of shit but they didn't make the choices that worsened race relations after the Civil Rights Act.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

That's a result of Republican marketing. You rarely see conservatism defended on its intellectual merits (such as they are) anymore. It's just appeals to base emotions, and the party has its own alternative media structure that simply pretends that uncomfortable facts don't exist. That's what I mean when I say the conservative movement is intellectually dead.

I'm sure you're not Buckley fan but the party kind of died with him. He brought in libertarians, the religious right and other groups together to form a party and was pretty good at alienating people from those groups that went to far.

Now you have a bunch of people who back Republican principles and they don't even know why.

 

[CableandThanos]

And that's where you're letting your limited personal experiences color entire races. You don't see many people, of any color, from the ghetto doing the things you're claiming as black things.

And you probably need a broader definition of "educated blacks" since the ones I know have a very broad appreciation of music, including Buble and 80's rock. Similarly, I don't know a lot of poor people, again of any color, who listen to Buble or Guns and Roses.



Me, personally? I wouldn't think anything of it. Some of the most ardent fans of rappers like Mos Def are white. I've been in clubs in India that play exclusively hip hop music. The Tyler Perry thing, that might be mostly black. :icon_lol:




This is going to sound harsh but that sounds like poor people behaviors. At the higher economic regions, I've seen that blacks, whites, Asians all talk about the same things.




I can't do this paragraph by paragraph anymore. Let's just summarize by saying that I do not share your experiences. In the world I grew up in, everyone pushed education. Even the poor blacks talked about the value of education to their kids. The cop thing has merit. The rest of it simply doesn't reflect the reality I know.

Let me say something here that's a little bit broad. People tend to surround themselves with people who reflect their view of the world. My younger brother has a tendency to surround himself with less accomplished people, he accordingly thinks that most people are far less driven. My older brother and I deal with a broader range of people and so have a less one-sided view of the world.

Not denigrating your life experiences but were you an officer in the military? Were you a scientist in the lab? Did you ever spend time with the owner of the movie theater?

I've been a fast food worker and I've hung out with people who make millions of dollars annually. I've been a lab tech and I know people who've written science textbooks for college students. I know rich people on multiple continents and poor people too.

I've dated an 18 y.o. with a kid and on welfare and I've dated the daughter of an ambassador.

I went to a community college to get a degree and I've been to a top 30 university for a degree. As a lawyer, I see people from all walks of life come into my office.

The stereotypes you're assigning to race are mostly stereotypes of low income people. You've simply conflated poor with black. Poor people all share a similar culture, where people err is that they focus on the difference between poor people in cities and poor people in rural areas and call it a difference of race, when city dwellers have always been different from rural residents even within races. But as you go up the economic ladder, you see that those differences are like saying that people who like science fiction have a different culture than people who crime dramas.

I like how you were trying to stay as PC as possible but then when Tyler perry came up you were like, fuck it, there is no excuse for that one, LOL

I didn't state that blacks from the ghetto do anything? So I don't know where that part of your response came from? I said I didn't see ghetto blacks doing shit that society mostly lists as white things.

Again since I live in a mainly black city and have worked with mainly lower income blacks, until the last 8 years, my view may be skewed. I get a lot of time sitting around at the hospitals I have worked at and get to ask a lot of questions and listening to a lot of people talk, even when they don't know I am listening. You wouldn't believe some of the shit I have heard come out of peoples mouths. Yes I am a scientist in the lab. I do work with some clerks (who are not necessarily educated) and mainly work with women (don't get me started on that shit, I will admit that I am sexist as hell, at least when it comes to work).

Again you seem to have come from a Koom by ya we are all here just plugging away trying to do everything correct at all times.

I came from more of a fuk that, I don't give a shit, I'm gonna do what I wanna do environment (not my own, a lot of the people around me).

You seem to have more do good friends and seem to have spent more time in that environment, so maybe that is clouding your world view. I don't agree with your world view, so I guess we are just at an impass.

 

[CableandThanos]

CandT, you're wrong here and JVS is right. It wasn't liberals that created the Southern strategy. And it wasn't liberals who put "welfare queen" into the national conversation. And it wasn't liberals that fought integration. And it wasn't during a liberal President that we started shipping drugs into poor urban neighborhoods to fund wars in other countries.

Liberals are wrong on a lot of shit but they didn't make the choices that worsened race relations after the Civil Rights Act.

????????????????????????????????

WTF did any of that come from?

I was replying to your post about welfare and how it gets brought up into a race conversation.

Where the hell did all the other shit you reply with come from?

I even specifically talked about the one point of welfare in my post.

 

[CableandThanos]

That's the thing, I don't think welfare is inherently conservative or liberal. I think most decent human beings want to look out for the poor. Where you start seeing conservative vs. liberal disagreements is in how government achieves those results.

But even those disagreements get waylaid by the intrusion of racial stereotypes into the discussion. How often has a discussion about welfare reform transformed into a discussion about "urban culture" and "black culture" and "hip hop culture"? When on a pure numbers basis we should be equally discussing "rural culture" and "white culture" and "country music culture". Or "old people culture".

It's what I was referring to when I said people take racial prejudices and then try to call them conservative principles. So you end up with people who think the system needs to be reformed stuck either arguing alongside prejudices you don't share or arguing alongside reforms you don't agree with.

But to put it in a purely conservative phrasing: I think the welfare system needs to be shrunk and there's too much waste. Not necessarily the economic value of the benefits received but definitely the system itself.

I may be biased here because I am conservative but I think a lot of this problem has come from the liberals. Whenever welfare reform comes up, the first thing out of their mouth is that it will unfairly affect blacks and other minorities. You never hear them say, hey more whites are on welfare, this is gonna hurt white people. No one gives a shit if it hurts white people (and that is not meant to be taken as a woo is me, poor little white people way), but the second you mention that it might hurt minorities, that is supposed to be the end of the conversation.

Yes there are some conservatives that rail on the ghetto queens, hell I am one of them because I live in a majority black town but I have always admitted that the same thing is going on in whitey Whitesville in IOWA.

The dems have made the discussion of welfare turn into a race issue.

That's a result of Republican marketing. You rarely see conservatism defended on its intellectual merits (such as they are) anymore. It's just appeals to base emotions, and the party has its own alternative media structure that simply pretends that uncomfortable facts don't exist. That's what I mean when I say the conservative movement is intellectually dead.

CandT, you're wrong here and JVS is right. It wasn't liberals that created the Southern strategy. And it wasn't liberals who put "welfare queen" into the national conversation. And it wasn't liberals that fought integration. And it wasn't during a liberal President that we started shipping drugs into poor urban neighborhoods to fund wars in other countries.

Liberals are wrong on a lot of shit but they didn't make the choices that worsened race relations after the Civil Rights Act.

My reply was to your specific point of welfare and race? My reply came before JVS even posted, so my reply was in no way directed towards him. I never replied to his post?

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'm sure you're not Buckley fan but the party kind of died with him. He brought in libertarians, the religious right and other groups together to form a party and was pretty good at alienating people from those groups that went to far.

Now you have a bunch of people who back Republican principles and they don't even know why.

I almost feel tempted at times to make the best arguments for conservative policy just to set a good example, but since a major pastime of right-wingers these days is sniffing out heretics, that probably wouldn't work.

 

[kpt018]

You still misunderstood what kpt said. There are 2 separate points in his comment.

1) Your comment about "if you haven't been president you can't comment on what he's doing." He said that no one says that.

2) You said there are serious cultural differences between blacks and whites and the liberals won't admit that. He said that there are probably cultural differences between the two of you and, here is where I'm interpreting his comments, it has nothing to with race. He goes on to state that he is more culturally attuned to the black kids he grew up with compared to how culturally attuned he is to you. Not that he is more attuned to black culture than you but that the black kids he grew up share his culture and you, presumably white, don't. Thus invalidating your claim that race is what drives the cultural differences and not environmental factors.

He then asked for examples of the serious cultural differences you think exist between blacks and whites.

That is exactly what I was trying to convey.

And I think we are still waiting for him to answer the question.

 

[panamaican]

????????????????????????????????

WTF did any of that come from?

I was replying to your post about welfare and how it gets brought up into a race conversation.

Where the hell did all the other shit you reply with come from?

I even specifically talked about the one point of welfare in my post.

And my response was that JVS was right when it came to the history and that you should re-examine what you think the roots of the problem really are. The Republican party pioneered turning conversations about social welfare into conversations about race.

The GOP started using welfare reform as a race based tactic to shore up disgruntled white voters. The ideological problem is that too many current Republicans don't understand where the welfare reform debate began. It began as race based doublespeak.

The Democrats simply sidestep the euphemism and demand that the Republican speaker make clear that this time it's not the euphemism and is genuinely about government reform. The outcome? Usually the Republican speaker finds him/her-self making statements that trace back to stereotypes about "welfare queens" and "urban culture not valuing education" or some other nonsense.

Several pages back, I believe you made a comment about the socially conservative positions held by the black community, yet you also make comments about how the black community doesn't value education and glorifies gangs and violence. Two diametrically opposed belief systems about a supposedly monolithic culture.

Have you never wondered why? Perhaps the idea of a monolithic black culture is inherently flawed? :icon_idea

 

[jmadtx]

a bunch of wackos.







jk

 

[CableandThanos]

You still misunderstood what kpt said. There are 2 separate points in his comment.

1) Your comment about "if you haven't been president you can't comment on what he's doing." He said that no one says that.

2) You said there are serious cultural differences between blacks and whites and the liberals won't admit that. He said that there are probably cultural differences between the two of you and, here is where I'm interpreting his comments, it has nothing to with race. He goes on to state that he is more culturally attuned to the black kids he grew up with compared to how culturally attuned he is to you. Not that he is more attuned to black culture than you but that the black kids he grew up share his culture and you, presumably white, don't. Thus invalidating your claim that race is what drives the cultural differences and not environmental factors.

He then asked for examples of the serious cultural differences you think exist between blacks and whites.

That is exactly what I was trying to convey.

And I think we are still waiting for him to answer the question.

so even though you quoted my comment and then deleted the part about the president and only kept the part about cultural differences, you meant that no one says that you shouldn't comment about the president if you haven't been president, because that is what pan is defending you on in point 1.

 

[CableandThanos]

And my response was that JVS was right when it came to the history and that you should re-examine what you think the roots of the problem really are. The Republican party pioneered turning conversations about social welfare into conversations about race.

The GOP started using welfare reform as a race based tactic to shore up disgruntled white voters. The ideological problem is that too many current Republicans don't understand where the welfare reform debate began. It began as race based doublespeak.

The Democrats simply sidestep the euphemism and demand that the Republican speaker make clear that this time it's not the euphemism and is genuinely about government reform. The outcome? Usually the Republican speaker finds him/her-self making statements that trace back to stereotypes about "welfare queens" and "urban culture not valuing education" or some other nonsense.

Several pages back, I believe you made a comment about the socially conservative positions held by the black community, yet you also make comments about how the black community doesn't value education and glorifies gangs and violence. Two diametrically opposed belief systems about a supposedly monolithic culture.

Have you never wondered why? Perhaps the idea of a monolithic black culture is inherently flawed? :icon_idea

I never said all blacks glorify that shit? I said the ladies I talked to seemed to have a different take on the ray rice situation. I never said they glorify that. I said that a lot of them admitted to hitting men and that they have been hit.

And that a lot of them didn't have the best upbringing education wise. Come on man, don't put false statements in my mouth.

Also what do blacks being sociallyreligious conservative have to do with education, violence and gangs?

Also who said anything about a monolithic culture?

 

[kpt018]

so even though you quoted my comment and then deleted the part about the president and only kept the part about cultural differences, you meant that no one says that you shouldn't comment about the president if you haven't been president, because that is what pan is defending you on in point 1.

In English please.

And I still don't see an answer to the question.

 

[panamaican]

I never said all blacks glorify that shit? I said the ladies I talked to seemed to have a different take on the ray rice situation. I never said they glorify that. I said that a lot of them admitted to hitting men and that they have been hit.

And that a lot of them didn't have the best upbringing education wise. Come on man, don't put false statements in my mouth.

Also what do blacks being sociallyreligious conservative have to do with education, violence and gangs?

You didn't say it in this thread but you have said it in others. We've disagreed over it.

So, it doesn't strike you as odd that a socially and religiously conservative group would hold beliefs that don't go together? How do religiously conservative people also glorify gang violence (not religious violence)? How do groups that hold socially conservative values also not value something as traditional as education?

Not odd to you?

Also who said anything about a monolithic culture?

Is that an agreement that there is no monolithic black culture?

 

[CableandThanos]

In English please.

And I still don't see an answer to the question.

I'm trying to be patient here

Read the post above you.

Pan thinks that your initial response of NO ONE THINKS THAT WAY- WAS meant as a reply to my saying the guy was on the verge of saying you can't talk about the president if you haven't been president.

I thought your first response was to the cultural difference thing, since you quoted it and it only.

So is pan right and your first response was about the president comment I made or was I right and your first comment was about the cultural difference comment?

 

[CableandThanos]

Kpt you have already been confusing once this thread, when speakhandsforme (who is no friend of mine) told you that the way you wrote something was confusing.

 

[CableandThanos]

You didn't say it in this thread but you have said it in others. We've disagreed over it.

So, it doesn't strike you as odd that a socially and religiously conservative group would hold beliefs that don't go together? How do religiously conservative people also glorify gang violence (not religious violence)? How do groups that hold socially conservative values also not value something as traditional as education?

Not odd to you?




Is that an agreement that there is no monolithic black culture?

So since a person or group in this situation claims to be religious, then they have to also believe or act in a way that you deem conservative?

How many people white/ black whatever are at the club booty dancing and getting drunk on SAT. night and then in the pews saying YESSSS LAWWWDDDDD ON SUNDAY?

And what does them being hypocrites in their voting (if the lord is the main focus in their life) have to do with gangs or education? Can they not be full of shit about their religion and other stuff as well?

 

[kpt018]

I'm trying to be patient here

Read the post above you.

Pan thinks that your initial response of NO ONE THINKS THAT WAY- WAS meant as a reply to my saying the guy was on the verge of saying you can't talk about the president if you haven't been president.

I thought your first response was to the cultural difference thing, since you quoted it and it only.

So is pan right and your first response was about the president comment I made or was I right and your first comment was about the cultural difference comment?

Why don't you stick to what I've said. Why are you so easily distracted? I will restate my main point, since apparently you are having difficulty understanding it (even though JVS, Pan and myself clarified) and/or staying on track.

I think that the claim that there are cultural differences based on race is total bullshit. This is determined nationality, your region, your religion, your upbringing, etc.. I used an analogy and you went on a rant about using the black card, which gave me a legit LOL, but has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made.

Now, are you still not going to clarify what you meant by significant cultural differences? I'm asking you to clarify a statement you made. We can move on after that.

 

[CableandThanos]

You didn't say it in this thread but you have said it in others. We've disagreed over it.

So, it doesn't strike you as odd that a socially and religiously conservative group would hold beliefs that don't go together? How do religiously conservative people also glorify gang violence (not religious violence)? How do groups that hold socially conservative values also not value something as traditional as education?

Not odd to you?




Is that an agreement that there is no monolithic black culture?

Pan I have said that ghetto culture glorifies that shit, not black society or culture. Just like trailer park white culture represents shady shit as well.

 

[kpt018]

Kpt you have already been confusing once this thread, when speakhandsforme (who is no friend of mine) told you that the way you wrote something was confusing.

It's been cleared up like 5 times dude. I'll give you a pass on the first one but you should have caught up by now.