What happened to Sugar Ray Robinson in the Mayweather Jr GOAT discussion? | Page 6

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by spacetime, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    Please, no deliberate ignorance. You know there are levels to the sport. We're talking the elite level here, where Floyd and Robinson fight. Floyd was undefeated against all, including elite level competition. Robinson was not. Lets pretend to need clarification like children as our argument, right?
     
    #101
    Jhonni5 and Strange King like this.
  2. Dr. Will Orange Belt

    Dr. Will
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    205
    We argue that there are indeed levels to competition. It's tougher to maintain clean records in Robinson's era. But then you don't like that it seems lol.

    If you emerge through Robinson's era with more wins than losses, and more specifically more frequent wins against top opposition than having more losses against them, that makes one a consistent top performing fighter. Now if you are 128-1 in that era where those who are seen as ATG's have losses far into the double figures, then you have found yourself a unicorn.

    Sugar Ray Unicorn.
     
    #102
  3. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    Show me an era where it was "easy" to have a clean record.

    You have to realize, sure, some of these arguments work against Floyd but what happens when you turn them the other way?

    Do you think Ray Leonard is a great fighter?
     
    #103
  4. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    Another question-

    When you guys consider a fighter like Floyds opposition and how great it is, is it guys like Felipe Garcia and Kino Rodriguez you consider? Because you seem to give a guy like Robinson a lot of credit for beating those sorts of guys. I don't think its really necessary. Robinson has the credentials to be great without having to fluff up his record with nonsense. There's no need to pretend every fight he fought was a quality fight with a guy worthy of being in the ring with him. Clearly there were many who shouldn't have been in there with him. Those guys don't make him great.

    Are fighters great because they fought a lot? Or because of who they beat?
     
    #104
    Jhonni5 and Strange King like this.
  5. Dr. Will Orange Belt

    Dr. Will
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    205
    Today is the easiest time to have a clean record. Look at some titleholders who held the title a few times.
    You can easily duck your way around fighters and it is defended even by fans now, when in the past it was seen as abhorred.

    Ray Leonard is a great fighter because he beat 4 of the best of all time in their very different styles - Duran, Hagler, Benitez, Hearns. These four wins catapult him to the 4th dimension because of how good they are H2H.
    They were all in good condition (relative to Leonard at the time who was also past prime, Hagler was in relatively similar condition). I don't care for Leonard's shot losses the way I don't care about Roy Jones' losses. In my book, beating 2 fighters on Mayweather tier is greater than beating 8 Hatton tier fighters simply because fewer fighters in history would beat 2 Mayweather tier opponents, but a much bigger number would beat 8 Hatton tier fighters.
     
    #105
    Hagler likes this.
  6. Dr. Will Orange Belt

    Dr. Will
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    205
    This answers your question, as does the others by the other posters:

     
    #106
  7. JayE Brown Belt

    JayE
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    5,171
    Fullmer wasn't particularly similar to Provodnikov; he was actually really good on the inside and was extremely awkward. Provodnikov wasn't really good at anything aside from taking damage and having a pretty good punch.
     
    #107
    Gregoire1, Hagler and Dr. Will like this.
  8. Dr. Will Orange Belt

    Dr. Will
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2017
    Messages:
    283
    Likes Received:
    205
    It's ironic to pick Gene Fullmer and say he is more Ruslan Provodnikov level.
    Fullmer was at his peak in the late 50's early 60's. Literally just before 'prime Ali' burst onto the scene - Ali himself being considered to this day arguably the very best ever. No PED testing then either.

    Also, Fullmer beat many, many opponents with good 'new-timer friendly' records i.e a few losses.
     
    #108
  9. JayE Brown Belt

    JayE
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    5,171
    Just to add to the bit about Fullmer, if anything I'd compare him to Shawn Porter in style (a Shawn Porter who was far better on the inside and quite a bit dirtier). It wasn't a pretty style, but he was a very good fighter.
     
    #109
  10. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    Nah, they were pretty similar. Winged hooks the same way, just relied on cutting off the ring and landing big shots.
     
    #110
  11. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    I don't see that at all.
     
    #111
  12. wilddeuces Purple Belt

    wilddeuces
    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,433
    Likes Received:
    863
    Location:
    Canada
    He surpassed being undefeated for longer. I didn't say he was undefeated, I said he was undefeated for longer. If a guy fought once and retired undefeated then he has a 100% win rate, so the amount has to be taken into consideration. Ray went 79 fights in a row without losing, which is more than the 49 or 50 that Mayweather has. There's something there, it's a larger number, and, as you said, if you have the willingness (or in some cases courage) to stick around long enough, you will eventually lose. I agree with that. Still, 79 is a bigger number than 49.

    I never said SRR had a perfect record.
     
    #112
  13. moosaev Blue Belt

    moosaev
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    732
    You're making straw man arguments. Nobody ever claimed SRRs resume is all studs, but we have brought up the structural differences in the eras which are pertinent to the discussion. Namely, if you fight 200 times there is no way around fighting a few bums. You just dont want to acknowledge that it isnt an apples to apples comparison because its not convenient for your argument.
     
    #113
  14. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    I am not making straw man arguments. None of you guys have used a factual argument in the lat 15 posts.
     
    #114
    Strange King likes this.
  15. JayE Brown Belt

    JayE
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    5,171
    Well, Provodnikov was outfought by Chris Algieri on the inside. Gene Fullmer beat Carmen Basilio up on the inside. That tells you how similar they were. He could also box on the backfoot at times, as well, against genuinely good fighters (he was outboxing Basilio on the backfoot for stretches during their fights). All in all, he was a far better than Provodnikov in about every way imaginable.
     
    #115
    Gregoire1 and Hagler like this.
  16. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    Carmen Basilio was almost as crude as Fullmer though.

    I honestly don't think Fullmer was all that talented. He was just a bull with a hard head, a good punch and an aggressive style.
     
    #116
  17. moosaev Blue Belt

    moosaev
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    732
    The issue is you only want to have the conversation on your terms, thats why you're leaning only on records, because its the only way Mayweather is even in the discussion. How the fighters are regarded by their peers and contemporaries matter, the eye test matters. Mayweather was never credibly considered an all time great until fairly recently, and its hard not to conclude that much of his shine comes from his business acumen and the fact that he's managed to rise above the sport.
     
    #117
    Dr. Will likes this.
  18. Seano Hands of bone

    Seano
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    91,084
    Likes Received:
    18,461
    Location:
    the sticks
    Boxing is a sport and stats are what matters in sports. Thats the only logical and fair way to compare guys from different eras. Wins and losses are what the sport is about. We enjoy it for other reasons but greatness is defined by results.

    I don't argue that Robinson isn't great, I argue that Floyd is also and that making a comparison of the two is not insulting to anyone. Floyd sat atop the P4P peak for over a decade at an age when other greats we're talking about were losing to nobodies.
     
    #118
    Jhonni5 and Strange King like this.
  19. moosaev Blue Belt

    moosaev
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Messages:
    865
    Likes Received:
    732
    No, its not a fair comparison because like i've said its not an apples to apples comparison. Furthermore, to suggest that stats are the only fair way to compare athletes is utterly absurd and its why i'm saying you only want the discussion on your terms. By ignoring the qualitative assessment of both fighters youre handicapping the comparison in favor of Mayweather.
     
    #119
  20. JayE Brown Belt

    JayE
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Messages:
    4,691
    Likes Received:
    5,171
    He wasn't wildly talented, but he was a very good fighter. He was extremely tough (and dirty), very well conditioned, had a bit of versatility, and was great on the inside. That's enough to be a very good fighter in any era.
     
    #120
    Hagler likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "fd5733925866a04e50edd70f38dfaa35"
monitoring_string = "603ac9fff68f23709f2a42bf5e29272b"