What is your preference for personal defense ammunition?

[exHeavyHippie]

3:30-3:45 has interesting visual aids.
This guy has years of experience. He ranks weapons systems as follows: 1.)battle rifle 2.)Shotgun 3.)pistol

 

[SMEAC]

I can't watch, so who is "he" and what is his experience?

 

[Jory]

Being able to kill is not just about the ballistics, otherwise people would just have barretts around.

A pistol with good ammo and especially a light is much better and "more lethal" than a shotgun. It is more maneuverable, concealable if needed, easier to deploy, more readily takes a light, higher capacity mag, detachable mag, quicker followup shots, better followup shots, lower recoil and you can definitely take a longer shot with one and be lethal if needed.

I never said that a .22lr was good, you can't seem to read or just want to put words in my mouth. I specifically said it was not preferable, but you want to just make shit up.

You have straight up given up on the FMJ ammo thing I guess since you know that you are absolutely wrong?

So shotguns suck at killing because they have limitations (that have nothing to do with actually killing--particularly in a home defense context)? That's a lot of qualifiers for such a sweeping statement.


As for FMJ vs. HP, let's talk terminal ballistics:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

There are 4 lethal aspects to a gunshot wound:
1. penetration
2. permanent cavity
3. temporary cavity
4. fragmentation

Pistol rounds do not reliably fragment. They don't have the velocity. The effect of temporary cavity is overrated. That leaves penetration and permanent cavity. Bullets need to penetrate through blood-carrying organs to be effective. A larger permanent cavity increases the odds of a bullet damaging a blood-carrying organ in its path.

FMJ rounds offer superior penetration relative to HP rounds. HP rounds create a superior permanent cavity--when they open properly, at the expense of penetration. Shot placement reduces the importance of permanent cavity.

Therefore, I stand by my statement that FMJ are acceptably lethal, and not just target ammo.

 

[SMEAC]

Guess since FMJ are so bad ass that is why any organization not bound to the Hague Convention uses them, oh wait a minute...

 

[Jory]

Guess since FMJ are so bad ass that is why any organization not bound to the Hague Convention uses them, oh wait a minute...

Anecdotal evidence. Do you even have a source on that?


Hollow points are used when the safety of bystanders is a concern largely due to to the reduced risk of being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets. But they are not more lethal than FMJ bullets.

 

[SMEAC]

Anecdotal evidence. Do you even have a source on that?


Hollow points are used when the safety of bystanders is a concern largely due to to the reduced risk of being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets. But they are not more lethal than FMJ bullets.

Are you actually serious with this?

 

[Jory]

Are you actually serious with this?

Yes.

Do you have any evidence or rational dispute to my claim?

 

[exHeavyHippie]

I can't watch, so who is "he" and what is his experience?

He is a lifer in the Marines, E8. He has not given his real name but you can google "MainePrepper", just make sure to not use a space, there are a lot of preppers in Maine. He is a bit religious but that does not take away from his firearm knowledge.

 

[exHeavyHippie]

SMEAC, this is just a HP v. FMJ comparsion with two milk jugs filled with water. The FMJ goes right through it where the HP explodes the jug.

Jory you admit that the HP does not penetrate as deep all things being equal, do you understand how that effects energy transfer?

 

[SMEAC]

Yes.

Do you have any evidence or rational dispute to my claim?

You aren't being rational though.

There is no sane person that would recommend the use of FMJ rounds.

There are tens of thousands of people that can tell you why they suck, but dudes that have had to try and kill people with FMJ are just anecdotal.

The whole development of the 1911 was in reaction to FMJ sucking dick.

 

[Jory]

SMEAC, this is just a HP v. FMJ comparsion with two milk jugs filled with water. The FMJ goes right through it where the HP explodes the jug.

Jory you admit that the HP does not penetrate as deep all things being equal, do you understand how that effects energy transfer?

I do. But energy transfer is "knock down" power. It isn't killing power (which has more to do with blood loss).

And for that matter, no pistol round can transfer more energy into a target than they do into recoil, so it isn't as if exploding a milk jug is going to translate into exploding some bastard's torso. That's basic thermodynamics.


I'm not saying that a HP round isn't deadly. I'm saying FMJ rounds are made to kill.

 

[hunto]

. But they are not more lethal than FMJ bullets.

Jory, I hate to be the bearer here, but HP are far more lethal than FMJ bullets.
pdf of Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Brassfetcher has some lots of videos of gel tests with HP in many calibers...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/

The only FMJ I can think of that is anywhere near as effective as HP for wounding has to be the rounds designed to tumble, like the Brit .303 and the Russian 5.45, with a hollow-tip to promote tumble once spin has ceased. They helicopter around in the body causing horrific wounds. But those are rifle rounds- that Russian 5.45 projectile is 25mm long!- and an inch-long projectile doesn't fit well in a regular handgun round's case.

Not only does the expanded round cut more tissue, but the forces exerted on the body that cause the HP round to expand are terrific, and result in a temporary cavity that can stretch tissues beyond their elastic boundary, resulting in even more damage. The handgun FMJ round is only going to crush it's own caliber in tissue, disrupting little around it.

 

[Jory]

You aren't being rational though.

There is no sane person that would recommend the use of FMJ rounds.

There are tens of thousands of people that can tell you why they suck, but dudes that have had to try and kill people with FMJ are just anecdotal.

The whole development of the 1911 was in reaction to FMJ sucking dick.

And yet the military still used FMJ ammo in their 1911s.

I'm being quite rational. I've provided an FBI report on ballistics as a reference, outlined the ways that gunshot wounds cause injury, and restated the differences in performance between hollow points and jacketed ball ammo.

Read the report I linked to. The author discusses the difficulty of killing someone with ANY pistol round (short of destroying the CNS or upper spinal cord). Even a direct hit that destroys the heart will take 10-15 seconds to kill someone.

A wound that passes completely through a blood-carrying organ will bleed faster than a wound into a blood carrying organ that does not pass through because the bullet plugs the wound.

In the words of the author, "No Law enforcement officer has lost his life because his bullet over penetrated his adversary... ...On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."

 

[Jory]

Jory, I hate to be the bearer here, but HP are far more lethal than FMJ bullets.
pdf of Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Brassfetcher has some lots of videos of gel tests with HP in many calibers...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/

The only FMJ I can think of that is anywhere near as effective as HP for wounding has to be the rounds designed to tumble, like the Brit .303 and the Russian 5.45, with a hollow-tip to promote tumble once spin has ceased. They helicopter around in the body causing horrific wounds. But those are rifle rounds- that Russian 5.45 projectile is 25mm long!- and an inch-long projectile doesn't fit well in a regular handgun round's case.

Not only does the expanded round cut more tissue, but the forces exerted on the body that cause the HP round to expand are terrific, and result in a temporary cavity that can stretch tissues beyond their elastic boundary, resulting in even more damage. The handgun FMJ round is only going to crush it's own caliber in tissue, disrupting little around it.

I've read your first link, but I don't think you have. Here are a few quotes:

Frequently forensic pathologists cannot distinguish between the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) fro that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity). There may be no physical difference in the wounds. p. 6, 5th para

No physical difference in the wound track of a FMJ and HP.

Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, whcih have adequate penetration. However, in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance. Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect. p. 11, 4th para

handgun bullets do not reliably expand, make selection based on penetration, and then unexpanded diameter--not expansion.


Once again, let me reiterate that I am no expert. I've never tried to kill anything with a pistol round. I became skeptical of hollow point rounds after doing my own homemade and certainly flawed ballistics tests and have been doing a little research since then. MY opinion is based in that research, but it is tentative. If someone can show me a source that refutes what I've read, my stance is reversible.

 

[SMEAC]

Its cute that instead of admitting that you are wrong because I was one of the people to bring it up that you are going to stand up against something that nearly the whole world knows.

 

[Jory]

Its cute that instead of admitting that you are wrong because I was one of the people to bring it up that you are going to stand up against something that nearly the whole world knows.

If the whole world knows it, point me to a source claiming that hollow points are more lethal than FMJ rounds.

Surely someone somewhere has made a comparison. I mean besides the FBI report that I've quoted.

 

[Jory]

Another source saying FMJ is killer ammo:

Handguns are not death rays. Despite what you see in the movies, the vast majority of people (over 80%) shot with handguns survive. Handguns are weak compared to rifles and shotguns and you want every edge you can get. Great ammunition is no more expensive than mediocre ammunition, so carry the best. Rifles and shotguns have stopping power to spare; handguns do not. Thus, you must select your handgun load very carefully and the detail of the handgun ammunition section reflects this.

Hollowpoint ammunition is NOT more lethal than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition. You may have seen media hype about "killer dum-dum bullets," but this is nonsense. Hollowpoint bullets usually expand and stop in the human body and thus the attacker absorbs much more of the bullet's kinetic energy than if the bullet had merely zipped through him and left two small holes. Hollowpoint ammunition is also safer for all parties concerned.

You are safer because your attacker is more likely to be incapacitated after one or two shots and thus unable to fire back, stab you, or whatever. The decreased likelihood of your attacker dying from hollowpoint bullets saves you the moral and legal complications and expense you will experience from killing a man.
Innocent bystanders are safer because hollowpoint bullets are less likely to exit the attacker's body and go on to injure anyone else. The ricochet danger is also much lower than that of ball ammunition, and hollowpoint bullets are less likely to penetrate walls or doors and strike uninvolved third parties. Furthermore, if your foe is incapacitated quickly he won't be spraying wild bullets around, endangering uninvolved third parties.
Lastly, your attacker is safer because he is far less likely to die from one or two hollowpoint bullets than the five or six round-nose slugs you would have had to fire to put him down. Most gunshot deaths occur from shock and loss of blood and ball rounds tend to make entry and exit wounds, whereas hollowpoints go in and stay put. An attacker shot twice with ball ammo will probably have four holes in him rather than two and is thus in far greater danger of death from blood loss. If you can avoid killing your attacker you should, for both moral and legal reasons.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

 

[hunto]

I've read your first link, but I don't think you have. Here are a few quotes:

No physical difference in the wound track of a FMJ and HP.


handgun bullets do not reliably expand, make selection based on penetration, and then unexpanded diameter--not expansion.


Once again, let me reiterate that I am no expert. I've never tried to kill anything with a pistol round. I became skeptical of hollow point rounds after doing my own homemade and certainly flawed ballistics tests and have been doing a little research since then. MY opinion is based in that research, but it is tentative. If someone can show me a source that refutes what I've read, my stance is reversible.

Obviously, I've read them Jory. You're the one saying FMJ is better than HP. You go right on ahead and keep thinking that.

 

[Jory]

Obviously, I've read them Jory. You're the one saying FMJ is better than HP. You go right on ahead and keep thinking that.

better at killing

In fact, I'll even amend that to "no less effective at killing" which is what I originally intended, all hyperbole aside, and to apply just to handgun bullets.

The sources you supplied clearly support that conclusion, so I'm not sure why you cited them to make the opposite point.


I'm not trying to be an asshole here. And I'm not stubborn. I'm a gun owner who genuinely wants to find the best pistol round for home defense.

This whole aside belongs in its own thread in my opinion.

 

[Lord of Lies]

Read this:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#Why not M193/M855