What would have happened in Vietnam if Goldwater won the election in 1964 in

Rod1 said:
The thing is that the McCain's and Ryan's wouldnt exist if the Republican party didnt had the south in the bag.

Do you honestly think that the poor in poor red states are voting Republican because they agree with their economic policies.
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But the dems had the South in the bag before Johnson, so I don't know how he solely gets the blame for that.
 
trident said:
He would have escalated just like Johnson

That war was bigger than any one President
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I don't know how you couldn't escalate it. Presently, 60% of the world population is asian. The world is growing increasingly eastern centric. The relative importance of Vietnam itself was never the core issue but of an iron blanket falling asia as had in eastern europe. I believe that there was a legitimate fear of the west having to fight off a league of communist nations following WW2. We have had a long run of peace but prior to WW2 that wasn't the case so I think this notion seemed very possible.

The second part to escalating it I think bore out of business interest. It would be a terrible loss to the international business community if capitalism or more likely exploitation weren't allowed to take root.
 
VivaRevolution said:
But the dems had the South in the bag before Johnson, so I don't know how he solely gets the blame for that.
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Yes, and with the South in the bag the Democrats created most of the core welfare programs in the USA, it was only after they lost the South that they had to gravitate towards the right on economic issues.
 
Rod1 said:
Yes, and with the South in the bag the Democrats created most of the core welfare programs in the USA, it was only after they lost the South that they had to gravitate towards the right on economic issues.
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The democrats created most of the social safety net, because their was a mob of people with pitch forks outside demanding it.

That had nothing to do with the south.
 
Prefect said:
I don't know how you couldn't escalate it. Presently, 60% of the world population is asian. The world is growing increasingly eastern centric. The relative importance of Vietnam itself was never the core issue but of an iron blanket falling asia as had in eastern europe. I believe that there was a legitimate fear of the west having to fight off a league of communist nations following WW2. We have had a long run of peace but prior to WW2 that wasn't the case so I think this notion seemed very possible.

The second part to escalating it I think bore out of business interest. It would be a terrible loss to the international business community if capitalism or more likely exploitation weren't allowed to take root.
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Fwiw, the Pentagon Papers showed not only was it known the war was not winnable, it was known it wasn't necessary either.
 
VivaRevolution said:
The democrats created most of the social safety net, because their was a mob of people with pitch forks outside demanding it.

That had nothing to do with the south.
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No, there wasnt, there was zero social unrest during the Great Depression, there was zero social unrest during the vast majority of history in the USA and where there was, it was because of rich people afraid to lose their slaves.
 
Rod1 said:
No, there wasnt, there was zero social unrest during the Great Depression, there was zero social unrest during the vast majority of history in the USA and where there was, it was because of rich people afraid to lose their slaves.
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Social unrest from the great depression to the civil rights movement was organized in a labor movement.

Their is a reason both parties from the 40's-70's were all economic progressives. The whole country had organized. It was political suicide to be anything else.

The only time the government has ever enacted massive policy change in the interests of the American people, has been when mobs with pitchforks demanded it. Sometimes it was more organized like the labor movement, sometimes more chaotic like the civil rights movement, but in both cases a political party or politician wasn't a savoir that led the huddled masses from the darkness. It was people with pitchforks that demanded the change.
 
trident said:
Fwiw, the Pentagon Papers showed not only was it known the war was not winnable, it was known it wasn't necessary either.
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link?

I went to the LBJ library, which is very good. Even Bush Jr.'s library was pretty good even though I didn't think he was a good president and often was over his head. The more I listen to him before his presidency and after the more I respect him as a person. He wasn't as dumb as what he was made out to be. I think he just was put into a shitty situation and got wore out with stress and the job. Anways, LBJ's recordings that they had at the library made it clear as day that the war was unwinnable.
 
VivaRevolution said:
Social unrest from the great depression to the civil rights movement was organized in a labor movement.

Their is a reason both parties from the 40's-70's were all economic progressives. The whole country had organized. It was political suicide to be anything else.

The only time the government has ever enacted massive policy change in the interests of the American people, has been when mobs with pitchforks demanded it. Sometimes it was more organized like the labor movement, sometimes more chaotic like the civil rights movement, but in both cases a political party or politician wasn't a savoir that led the huddled masses from the darkness. It was people with pitchforks that demanded the change.
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What pitchforks? i see very few riots in US history which amounted to little, most Americans seem to be happy with licking boots and are more concerned with social affairs when choosing their government than any economic one. Civil rights unrest was a social issue, not an economic one, which is entirely my point.
 
Prefect said:
I don't know how you couldn't escalate it. Presently, 60% of the world population is asian. The world is growing increasingly eastern centric. The relative importance of Vietnam itself was never the core issue but of an iron blanket falling asia as had in eastern europe. I believe that there was a legitimate fear of the west having to fight off a league of communist nations following WW2. We have had a long run of peace but prior to WW2 that wasn't the case so I think this notion seemed very possible.

The second part to escalating it I think bore out of business interest. It would be a terrible loss to the international business community if capitalism or more likely exploitation weren't allowed to take root.
Click to expand...

We went into Vietnam because we were blackmailed by the French, who wanted support to continue expropriating resources from their colony. There was a fear that the French would turn to the communists for help if we didn't support them.

Funny enough, Ho Chi Minh pleaded with the US to help expel the French, as Minh was a big admirer of the US and how they won independence from the British. He wrote several letters asking for support in Vietnam's right to self-determination while millions of his countrymen were starving to death as the French exported rice.

Because Minh's pleas were ignored, he turned to the communists for help, which became our excuse for the war (domino effect).
 
Prefect said:
link?

I went to the LBJ library, which is very good. Even Bush Jr.'s library was pretty good even though I didn't think he was a good president and often was over his head. The more I listen to him before his presidency and after the more I respect him as a person. He wasn't as dumb as what he was made out to be. I think he just was put into a shitty situation and got wore out with stress and the job. Anways, LBJ's recordings that they had at the library made it clear as day that the war was unwinnable.
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Just look for Daniel Ellsberg and Pentagon Papers

He wrote a book on the experience years later that is worth a read too if you have time
 
Rod1 said:
What pitchforks? i see very few riots in US history which amounted to little, most Americans seem to be happy with licking boots and are more concerned with social affairs when choosing their government than any economic one. Civil rights unrest was a social issue, not an economic one, which is entirely my point.
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Literal pitchforks are rarely as effective as figurative ones.
 
Goldwater likely would have no effect

It was the decision to go w/ the Attrition strategy of Westmoreland in lieu of the Hamlet strategy proposed by the USMC and other State Dept members that ultimately sealed that wars fate...

Peep the Combined Action Program, a small scale implementation of this during the war that was HIGHLY successful in terms of K/D ratios, contraband and arms confiscated, building rapport among the local nationals, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Action_Program

of note: Of the 209 villages protected by CAP units, not one ever reverted to VC control......
 
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