What's goin' down at Tocco's (video):

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The dude you mentioned at the end bugs me. It seems like complete laziness and lack of care. I'm fairly lucky in that Marcos Camejo coached some of the cuban olympians, some of whom medalled up to silver (which I could say more but I'm not an expert on the Amateur scene in the slightest). I'm definitely looking up Al Osta though.

The daddy coach that immediately sticks out in my mind was Cus D'amato, not that he wasn't a fantastic mind and a great trainer, but he definitely brought out the confidence in great athletes like Tyson and Patterson. Luckily he had a great tactical brain to back it up rather than going the "you're a wrecking machine" route.

Was it difficult going back to being the bucket man, even with all the time you'd spent in the sport?
 
But once upon a time American and U.K. trainers knew similar stuff, but we became enamored with athleticism, or power. What we became very good at, was finding the golden geese. Then our entire Amateur programs became built on two things: 1) speed (or as I sometimes put it, LARGELY the athleticism of black people), and 2) the toughness of white kids and Latinos. Right now, most of our high-level U.S. Amateurs look hauntingly similar to each other. That's been the problem through the last few years. We always reward the same things, and send the same types of fighters to the Olympics each time, just to come back with very little.

I really liked Nico Hernandez, but in his final match against an Uzbek, he was just out-classed and did well when he just waded through shots to score:



I thought Gary Antwun Russel was robbed, but I don't think he'd have won the Gold at 141. Then there's Shakur Stevenson, who has crazy good reflexes, hand-eye coordination, and overall speed. But it wasn't enough to beat the reigning Champ Ramirez:



It's interesting you say this, because I remember in a Jack Slack article on Vasyl Lomachenko him mentioning "when you hear that someones had 400 amateur fights you'd expect him to have some class on the outside, but he's surprisingly good on the inside as well"

I'm paraphrasing, but that part immediately jumped out at me, that you expect successful amatuer boxers (especially before the recent rule changes) to be speedy outfighters like that of Amir Khan, or otherwise great at managing distance but not being too great at the grittier parts of boxing.

I don't know how accurate that assessment is, but you reminded me of it
 
The dude you mentioned at the end bugs me. It seems like complete laziness and lack of care. I'm fairly lucky in that Marcos Camejo coached some of the cuban olympians, some of whom medalled up to silver (which I could say more but I'm not an expert on the Amateur scene in the slightest). I'm definitely looking up Al Osta though.

The daddy coach that immediately sticks out in my mind was Cus D'amato, not that he wasn't a fantastic mind and a great trainer, but he definitely brought out the confidence in great athletes like Tyson and Patterson. Luckily he had a great tactical brain to back it up rather than going the "you're a wrecking machine" route.

Was it difficult going back to being the bucket man, even with all the time you'd spent in the sport?

Well, by Daddies I meant biological Fathers. lol Cus would fall into the "mentor" area.

But no, I quickly realized that most people from latter generations than mine are always looking for shortcuts, cheap and easy ways to get somewhere fast. And usually that leads them into roles they're unprepared for. I thought about every job I worked where managers are the most nervous, insecure, ignorant to the tasks people in the building, and usually the guy who is the most qualified to manage doesn't want to. Then I thought about my own initial resistance to training people, all my life I always end up in roles where I have to explain shit to people. In my time trying to become a fighter, I was trying to be a DOER and not a talker. As Dadi would put it: "A brain who would like to be a muscle."

When I accepted that I'm just better at instruction, I decided I wanted to do it the right way. Do the apprenticeship, then don't walk around talking shit about how good you can do it. Instead let the visible quality of your work speak for itself. Well, yesterday I had a guy with two regional Titles as a Pro, and another prospect Pro come here looking for my AMATEURS to spar with. So I guess that's a good sign. And I've had fighters spar with Jessie Vargas and Tim Bradley, and on all 3 occasions my fighters were the only amateurs there. So it was worthwhile.

It's interesting you say this, because I remember in a Jack Slack article on Vasyl Lomachenko him mentioning "when you hear that someones had 400 amateur fights you'd expect him to have some class on the outside, but he's surprisingly good on the inside as well"

I'm paraphrasing, but that part immediately jumped out at me, that you expect successful amatuer boxers (especially before the recent rule changes) to be speedy outfighters like that of Amir Khan, or otherwise great at managing distance but not being too great at the grittier parts of boxing.

I don't know how accurate that assessment is, but you reminded me of it

Well yeah, for years the amateur system was moving highly to the "points" area, it wasn't gritty because being gritty and hurting the other guy didn't count for shit unless you produced knockouts. Now that they're moving back to the Pro style of scoring, you're starting to see the grimy-ness come back. Particularly in some areas of the former Soviet Union, the Russian WSB team, I recall seeing them once a few years ago and they were HYPER-aggressive. Nearly to the point of absurdity.
 
Well, by Daddies I meant biological Fathers. lol Cus would fall into the "mentor" area.

But no, I quickly realized that most people from latter generations than mine are always looking for shortcuts, cheap and easy ways to get somewhere fast. And usually that leads them into roles they're unprepared for. I thought about every job I worked where managers are the most nervous, insecure, ignorant to the tasks people in the building, and usually the guy who is the most qualified to manage doesn't want to. Then I thought about my own initial resistance to training people, all my life I always end up in roles where I have to explain shit to people. In my time trying to become a fighter, I was trying to be a DOER and not a talker. As Dadi would put it: "A brain who would like to be a muscle."

When I accepted that I'm just better at instruction, I decided I wanted to do it the right way. Do the apprenticeship, then don't walk around talking shit about how good you can do it. Instead let the visible quality of your work speak for itself. Well, yesterday I had a guy with two regional Titles as a Pro, and another prospect Pro come here looking for my AMATEURS to spar with. So I guess that's a good sign. And I've had fighters spar with Jessie Vargas and Tim Bradley, and on all 3 occasions my fighters were the only amateurs there. So it was worthwhile.

That's a big part of why I hate the phrase "those who can't do, teach" because they're two different skillsets. It's good that you're not bitter, because obviously you've done great work. I find it interesting that a lot of the time, you'll get a guy like Duane Ludwig, who's a massive ideas guy, strategy, really understands footwork angles, distance and how to make the most out of his guys, but you tend to find that most fighters aren't like him. A lot of the time I've noticed that fighters, especially on the UFC when they try to break down and explain the fights that others have had, or work on commentary that they don't fully understand the technique at work. It seems more like they just do what their instructor says and have the fight in them and the athleticism to make it work.

Well yeah, for years the amateur system was moving highly to the "points" area, it wasn't gritty because being gritty and hurting the other guy didn't count for shit unless you produced knockouts. Now that they're moving back to the Pro style of scoring, you're starting to see the grimy-ness come back. Particularly in some areas of the former Soviet Union, the Russian WSB team, I recall seeing them once a few years ago and they were HYPER-aggressive. Nearly to the point of absurdity.

I'm always really impressed with your dudes. Was it a relief when the scoring changed because now your guys body shots and aggression counted for something more, or was it a pain in the arse? Because I don't imagine the way your guys trained and sparred would have changed that much, but I could see a guy like Bandito liking the newer rules more.
 
Yeah, athletes tend to make shitty instructors/commentators unless they learn THOSE crafts. Many times instructors who were great at something will expect you to have the same aptitude they did, and "just understand" stuff. Mike was like that. But if you pestered him for details, he'd elaborate, and you'd get gems given to him by his teachers.

Yeah we are happy about it, but I never wanted to cater much to the Amateur system in general. It's HIGHLY political. Jesse Magdaleno whooped Rau'shee Warren's ass twice in National Tournaments, yet which one went to the Olympics 3 times? When they like a guy, they'll do whatever it takes to make sure he gets there over better fighters. So my fighters were always being more groomed to have long careers as Professionals if they want. The newer crop I'm grooming now of younger guys, they can aim for the Olympics if they want. But I always let them know, sometimes the better you are the less likely of a chance you'll have of going.
 
What causes those kind of politics? It seems weird to me that you wouldn't want the best guys out there. I'm speaking from ignorance, but it's weird. Is it about looks and marketability as well?
 
Cause? Favoritism I guess. People will always invariably give opportunities to people they know and like over strangers that are more qualified.

On a sidenote, here's some stuff:



Za-Quan and J-Flash:



My guys Bandito, and Shaun we call "Bommu"...means "Bomb" in Ugandan:

 
Cause? Favoritism I guess. People will always invariably give opportunities to people they know and like over strangers that are more qualified.

On a sidenote, here's some stuff:



Za-Quan and J-Flash:



My guys Bandito, and Shaun we call "Bommu"...means "Bomb" in Ugandan:


These are from last friday, right?

Flash has some neat angles when he takes them and good positioning. Talk about a fighter with his weight back in his stance. Za-Quan made it a little awkward for him at some points later on because of his output and muscling, and when it looked like Flash got a little tired.

It looks like Bandito favours his front foot more than most of your guys. Him slipping as much as he does, especially the right hand slips he does to the outside, would you say that those are some of the defensive options that Brando argued was made easier by being more front foot heavy at times? Most of the time when he does it, he already has some of his weight loaded onto his lead hip, so he doesn't have to switch from his rear hip, to his lead, before slipping. Saving time in the process, with that particular slip at least, wouldn't you say?

The drawback is that he's a lot closer to many of the shots and if he makes a mistake he pays. He does know when to pull back though, but it seems like a more challenging style timing wise.
 
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Zay always makes it awkward for J.R. He's one of the few guys who pushes J.R. in the manner that he does.

Well, there's a compromise to that slip Bandito uses, the slip to his left. It's a LITTLE mechanically easier to do with his head closer in that direction, BUT there's less time to actually execute the maneuver with the head that close to the opponent. When you're on the right hip, the move is further, but you're also further, so if you see it coming there's plenty of time to execute. So it's not that he saves time, it's that he doesn't have any. If he began further from the right hand, he'd have more. But rights are not my concern, if you go to the thread about him and watch his sparring with Chris Harris Jr., (much like JMM), Joseph gets hit with too many counter-hooks. Because smart opponents bait him into a head-forward position. This happens to Shaun, too, because before me his instructors were also forgiving of his head being over the lead foot and I've had to do a lot to get him a bit further back.

You'll notice Joseph pulls to his right hip quite a bit now compared to earlier videos. That's me giving him an easy way to make hooks miss because before his only option was to roll under them, which is a lot of work and a huge compromise of counter opportunities. "Hands up" doesn't work because he's so close that good hooks go around the guard and catch him near the ear, which is a terrible place to get hit.
 
Zay always makes it awkward for J.R. He's one of the few guys who pushes J.R. in the manner that he does.

Well, there's a compromise to that slip Bandito uses, the slip to his left. It's a LITTLE mechanically easier to do with his head closer in that direction, BUT there's less time to actually execute the maneuver with the head that close to the opponent. When you're on the right hip, the move is further, but you're also further, so if you see it coming there's plenty of time to execute. So it's not that he saves time, it's that he doesn't have any. If he began further from the right hand, he'd have more. But rights are not my concern, if you go to the thread about him and watch his sparring with Chris Harris Jr., (much like JMM), Joseph gets hit with too many counter-hooks. Because smart opponents bait him into a head-forward position. This happens to Shaun, too, because before me his instructors were also forgiving of his head being over the lead foot and I've had to do a lot to get him a bit further back.

You'll notice Joseph pulls to his right hip quite a bit now compared to earlier videos. That's me giving him an easy way to make hooks miss because before his only option was to roll under them, which is a lot of work and a huge compromise of counter opportunities. "Hands up" doesn't work because he's so close that good hooks go around the guard and catch him near the ear, which is a terrible place to get hit.
I see your point about the distance the punch travels. I guess I can see the argument for both in regards to the slip to the left, but I'm starting to appreciate the weight back style more and more overall. I've always been a front foot heavy, volume puncher, come forward type. I have also always eaten a lot of punches doing that, sooo haha.

Yep I've noticed that he gets caught with lead hooks more often than right hands. As you explain it, it makes total sense in regards to his positioning. Still i've also noticed that he pulls back a lot more in the later vids and that he looks like a more complete fighter.

There's something dangerous about that Marquez style, but it's just so beautiful to watch when it works. Shifting the weight around from front to back leg, dictating the ranges, methodically using offense and defense, drawing a counter and then BAM. I think that's why I like to watch Banditos style so much.
 
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Yes, well it gives the fans what they want while simultaneously functioning for counter-punching. People perceive Mayweather a specific way because his defensive positions of creating maximum distance AWAY from punches is burned into their heads. They can't see him in ANY other position when they close their eyes because that stands out the most. And that's where they get the notion of him being "afraid"...really, a man who has done nothing with his adult life Professionally aside from GAMBLING, and fighting people with his fists for money, is dominated by "fear." But that's how minds of viewers work.

Marquez' position is more suggestive of taking risks, even if he doesn't do as well on the attack as when in retreat. He gets forgiven for it because he at least APPEARS perfectly willing to engage, and because of the ferocity with which he fights back when hit or hurt.
 
Yes, well it gives the fans what they want while simultaneously functioning for counter-punching. People perceive Mayweather a specific way because his defensive positions of creating maximum distance AWAY from punches is burned into their heads. They can't see him in ANY other position when they close their eyes because that stands out the most. And that's where they get the notion of him being "afraid"...really, a man who has done nothing with his adult life Professionally aside from GAMBLING, and fighting people with his fists for money, is dominated by "fear." But that's how minds of viewers work.

Marquez' position is more suggestive of taking risks, even if he doesn't do as well on the attack as when in retreat. He gets forgiven for it because he at least APPEARS perfectly willing to engage, and because of the ferocity with which he fights back when hit or hurt.
Yeah the amount of "fans" claiming that one fighter or the other is scared is ridiculous considering their occupation.

I see what you mean, but i still think there's a bit more to it than that. Marquez doesn't hold as much as Floyd does and he has a lot more stoppages. Floyd used to be pretty exciting when he was younger it seems, but I haven't watched much of the first half of his career. Can't blame him for doing what he does best, but he does tend to stall the action. Although I think that Marquez does a bit more than only suggesting risk compared to Floyd, the suggestion in itself is exciting as you say. Floyd doesn't care about looking like he's willing to engage or take risks. It's a bit like watching GSP fight after the Serra upset. He didn't care about even looking like he was going for a finish. I think what sometimes frustrates people about that, is that they can completely dominate the entire fight, and never even think for a second about ending it.


Nice! You wouldn't have to have any videos of specific partner drills/instructions laying around would you? :D
 
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Yes, well it gives the fans what they want while simultaneously functioning for counter-punching. People perceive Mayweather a specific way because his defensive positions of creating maximum distance AWAY from punches is burned into their heads. They can't see him in ANY other position when they close their eyes because that stands out the most. And that's where they get the notion of him being "afraid"...really, a man who has done nothing with his adult life Professionally aside from GAMBLING, and fighting people with his fists for money, is dominated by "fear." But that's how minds of viewers work.

Marquez' position is more suggestive of taking risks, even if he doesn't do as well on the attack as when in retreat. He gets forgiven for it because he at least APPEARS perfectly willing to engage, and because of the ferocity with which he fights back when hit or hurt.

Mayweather is one of those guys that's just so famous for his work defensively, he sort of makes you forget that he tends to instigate most of the exchanges in his matches. He'd come with a jab to the body quite a lot, just to draw the reaction.
 
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Yeah the amount of "fans" claiming that one fighter or the other is scared is ridiculous considering their occupation.

I see what you mean, but i still think there's a bit more to it than that. Marquez doesn't hold as much as Floyd does and he has a lot more stoppages. Floyd used to be pretty exciting when he was younger it seems, but I haven't watched much of the first half of his career. Can't blame him for doing what he does best, but he does tend to stall the action. Although I think that Marquez does a bit more than only suggesting risk compared to Floyd, the suggestion in itself is exciting as you say. Floyd doesn't care about looking like he's willing to engage or take risks. It's a bit like watching GSP fight after the Serra upset. He didn't care about even looking like he was going for a finish. I think what sometimes frustrates people about that, is that they can completely dominate the entire fight, and never even think for a second about ending it.


Nice! You wouldn't have to have any videos of specific partner drills/instructions laying around would you? :D

I don't think Floyd holds a terrible amount, except against sloppy ass fighters like Maidana. He didn't hold a lot against Cotto and only did with Shane when he was hurt. But this is because he was fighting guys better at gauging distance. Maidana and Hatton just crash into you. What was he supposed to do? Hatton actually holds WAY more than Floyd if you watch more of his fights, he's a notorious holder and hitter and Mickey Vann never penalized him once for it.

Marquez IS willing to engage as much as Floyd, but that doesn't make him less of a counter-puncher whose best work is done off the back foot. His defense is just less savvy, so he has to begin throwing back fairly quickly or he gets hurt (Juan Diaz). Floyd goes forward a thousand times more than people remember, it's just not nearly as memorable as when he's appearing unhittable.

And no I don't. They're in some videos I've posted if you want to go hunting, but my versions of those I don't just give away.

Mayweather is one of those guys that's just so famous for his work defensively, he sort of makes you forget that he tends to instage most of the exchanges in his matches. He'd come in with a jab to the body quite a lot just to draw the reaction and counter to it.

Yes indeed.
 
I don't think Floyd holds a terrible amount, except against sloppy ass fighters like Maidana. He didn't hold a lot against Cotto and only did with Shane when he was hurt. But this is because he was fighting guys better at gauging distance. Maidana and Hatton just crash into you. What was he supposed to do? Hatton actually holds WAY more than Floyd if you watch more of his fights, he's a notorious holder and hitter and Mickey Vann never penalized him once for it.

Marquez IS willing to engage as much as Floyd, but that doesn't make him less of a counter-puncher whose best work is done off the back foot. His defense is just less savvy, so he has to begin throwing back fairly quickly or he gets hurt (Juan Diaz). Floyd goes forward a thousand times more than people remember, it's just not nearly as memorable as when he's appearing unhittable.

And no I don't. They're in some videos I've posted if you want to go hunting, but my versions of those I don't just give away.
Yeah Floyd is excellent at drawing counters. His jab to the body and pullback+right hand counters are beautiful. He just doesn't have the power that JMM does and he always tries to slow the pace of the fight down. Don't know, I just never found his style that exciting to watch, although I appreciate his craft more and more.

About the drills, haha I thought as much. Can't blame a guy for trying. Anyway, I'll try to see if I can find some.

Btw, I don't want to derail the thread, but what is your thoughts on someone like Sweat Pea and his defensive boxing? Fundamentally incorrect? Well schooled? Athleticism? A little bit of each? Specificly in regards to the whole weight distribution discussion, foot placement and so forth that you and Brando had. He's so much fun to watch, but from 1:26-1:29, who could pull that off other than a very few select people. Does he do alot of things that you normally wouldn't teach?

 
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no I don't. They're in some videos I've posted if you want to go hunting, but my versions of those I don't just give away.
And how would one pay, assuming I'm not able to get to Vegas to train?
 
The Sinister Boxing Network for 9.99? :D
Step 1. Make some fancy head movement video with a student at put it on youtube, getting millions of views.
Step 2. Sell "head movement package".
Step 3. Profit.
 
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