What's goin' down at Tocco's (video):

[Sinister]

Sano - thing about that is the fights are not and never were the source of the real damage. Like sword-craft, the strength is forged in the tempering. Temper correctly, sword is much less likely to break. Over or under temper, sword is brittle.

I only disagree with you on placement of the danger. Aside from aesthetics, fighters encounter much more danger in the gym. Sparring bigger fighters, older fighters, more experienced fighters who could put them in compromising positions and they're fully under-skilled to handle it. Now, we're not talking about purposely getting kids knocked out, but I cannot support giving them the impression that it cannot or should not happen as a habit.

Sadaam Ali comes to mind. A fighter I trained worked out at the same gym he did. He said they always treated him gingerly in the gym. He was never under much threat in sparring, never had to battle a lot of adversity. He fought world level Amateurs, but that's a system and you can get by a bit easier with 3 rounds. Well:





It cannot be avoided fully if this is what you do, and either you can handle it...or everyone learns you can't. This kid does everything wrong under pressure and he's not being trained to correct it.

P.S. - Jessie was supposed to lose to Ali. He was the opponent coming off a loss to Bradley. One of my fighters had Jessie on his ass in sparring for that fight, albeit by a defensive move. 3 weeks later I saw Jessie drop 2 sparring partners (paid guys) and knew he'd stop Ali.

 

[Sano]

Sano - thing about that is the fights are not and never were the source of the real damage. Like sword-craft, the strength is forged in the tempering. Temper correctly, sword is much less likely to break. Over or under temper, sword is brittle.

I only disagree with you on placement of the danger. Aside from aesthetics, fighters encounter much more danger in the gym. Sparring bigger fighters, older fighters, more experienced fighters who could put them in compromising positions and they're fully under-skilled to handle it. Now, we're not talking about purposely getting kids knocked out, but I cannot support giving them the impression that it cannot or should not happen as a habit.

Sadaam Ali comes to mind. A fighter I trained worked out at the same gym he did. He said they always treated him gingerly in the gym. He was never under much threat in sparring, never had to battle a lot of adversity. He fought world level Amateurs, but that's a system and you can get by a bit easier with 3 rounds. Well:





It cannot be avoided fully if this is what you do, and either you can handle it...or everyone learns you can't. This kid does everything wrong under pressure and he's not being trained to correct it.

P.S. - Jessie was supposed to lose to Ali. He was the opponent coming off a loss to Bradley. One of my fighters had Jessie on his ass in sparring for that fight, albeit by a defensive move. 3 weeks later I saw Jessie drop 2 sparring partners (paid guys) and knew he'd stop Ali.

Yeah most of the damage happens in sparring and that's part of what I was arguing against as I'd say it has a lot to do with the culture as well. Not as much orthopeadic injuries, because they happen as a result of fatigue and pushing. A good prehab program can help alleviate them, but those I feel are par for the course. My gripe is with too much head trauma in training. I thoroughly believe that they need to be put in compromising positions and battle adversity, otherwise you'll never learn, but I think where we differ is how much damage that involves and which ways to do it in. You used Ali as an example, but I've seen examples of the contrary too. I can't point to the top boxers in the state because I don't know exactly how they all spar across gyms, but personally I've seen guys who spar less viciously destroy people who engage in sparring wars all the time. There's no denying that coaching quality, technical skill, drilling, the mentality of the fighter and innate ability has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

Just a funny anecdote, not at all at the same level, but still relevant. This friend of mine from Bellator is one of the two coaches for a beginner amateur boxing team. The other coach is this oldschool guy, and not the good kind. Anyway, so they split the team and he was complaining about my friend not letting the fighters be rough enough and going balls to the ball enough. There was a very clear concept to what he was doing though and he was building them up much more methodically. Long story short, they competed and the event organisers said that they were the best debut team they've seen. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's just an anecdote, but it was definitely very satisfying.

I gotta crash man it's really late here and I have to get up early.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah most of the damage happens in sparring and that's part of what I was arguing against as I'd say it has a lot to do with the culture as well. Not as much orthopeadic injuries, because they happen as a result of fatigue and pushing. A good prehab program can help alleviate them, but those I feel are par for the course. My gripe is with too much head trauma in training. I thoroughly believe that they need to be put in compromising positions and battle adversity, otherwise you'll never learn, but I think where we differ is how much damage that involves and which ways to do it in. You used Ali as an example, but I've seen examples of the contrary too. I can't point to the top boxers in the state because I don't know exactly how they all spar across gyms, but personally I've seen guys who spar less viciously destroy people who engage in sparring wars all the time. There's no denying that coaching quality, technical skill, drilling, the mentality of the fighter and innate ability has a lot to do with the outcome as well.

Just a funny anecdote, not at all at the same level, but still relevant. This friend of mine from Bellator is one of the two coaches for a beginner amateur boxing team. The other coach is this oldschool guy, and not the good kind. Anyway, so they split the team and he was complaining about my friend not letting the fighters be rough enough and going balls to the ball enough. There was a very clear concept to what he was doing though and he was building them up much more methodically. Long story short, they competed and the event organisers said that they were the best debut team they've seen. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, it's just an anecdote, but it was definitely very satisfying.

I gotta crash man it's really late here and I have to get up early.

I'm more on your side than you think. Earlier in this thread (I believe, memory is a little shady) I told of me vs. the elder Statesman trainer at our gym. He only does sparring and mitts, if they're not sparring they're hitting mitts. Little to no defense, and he puts kids in over their heads quite often. He got a 16 year-old with 2 fights knocked out by a Pro. My guy in this video got caught, it happens. He hadn't been down before that under my watch. Daijon hurt the #2 guy just before being hurt. In other words they all have aptitude, and education.

A few weeks back a Swiss Pro came to our gym. Over 100 amateur fights, more than 10 Pro fights, winning record. We arranged for him to spar one of my guys who has 29 fights and holds his own with high level work. The other trainer got mad because he intercepted them (they didn't remember my name) and offered two guys. Thing was, his guys had approximately ZERO fights and one was 15. I don't do shit like that. So my guy spars 3 rounds and gets slapped around a bit. This guy STILL puts his guys in after seeing that. Long story short they got hurt, both of them, and the Pro was TRYING to be courteous to them while still trying to get something out of it.

So I'm closer to you than that guy, and closer to that guy than you. But I'd never sway that far.

 

[Sinister]

This is that guy:

 

[BillytheFish]

This is that guy:

Fancy horsecrap? Lol what about sugar ray robinson would he consider that fancy crap?

I do love me some Marvin Hagler tho

 

[Sinister]

He thinks he and Hagler had some shit in common as blue-collar class guys. But the truth is Hagler was everything he ever dreamed of being but didn't have the guts to go after it. So he tried to make his Son box and live vicariously through him, he fought Steve Luevano in the U.S. National finals, then quit boxing.

Doesn't talk to his Dad a whole lot nowadays.

Thing about guys like this is they almost never shoulder responsibility. Notice how "they" are always the enemy. And people like this always know better than "them" ...and yet they aren't changing things. Not to mention that every fighter he'd name as someone HE trained already knew how to fight when he got them. As of this point I believe he just thought boxing was an easy way to make a buck/have his Son live out his dream. Then none of it worked out and he's still convinced he's not the problem.

 

[BillytheFish]

He thinks he and Hagler had some shit in common as blue-collar class guys. But the truth is Hagler was everything he ever dreamed of being but didn't have the guts to go after it. So he tried to make his Son box and live vicariously through him, he fought Steve Luevano in the U.S. National finals, then quit boxing.

Doesn't talk to his Dad a whole lot nowadays.

Thing about guys like this is they almost never shoulder responsibility. Notice how "they" are always the enemy. And people like this always know better than "them" ...and yet they aren't changing things. Not to mention that every fighter he'd name as someone HE trained already knew how to fight when he got them. As of this point I believe he just thought boxing was an easy way to make a buck/have his Son live out his dream. Then none of it worked out and he's still convinced he's not the problem.

Im starting to realize alot of gyms have many guys who already learned how to box from various other gyms and simply change shirt (at amateur level). In Ireland/the UK we don't have as many gyms and thus the majority of guys tend to stay with the same location for much of their young life.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, it happens here in the States very frequently. So this guy at our gym scavenges, he gets fighters who already have a basic education, makes them spar incessantly until they kind of figure out how to not get killed on their own, then takes credit for what they do.

One of his big selling points is he trained Carlos Navarro for a while. But then I found a fight where he cornered Carlos and REALLY listened/watched, Carlos didn't do a thing he shouted out. And in the corner all he did was gas his head up, give him nonsense designed to make him feel awesome. He does that a lot. Here's a quote:

"You wanna be faster? Just do it, just BE faster. There's no trick to it. Move faster."

 

[ironkhan57]

Yeah, it happens here in the States very frequently. So this guy at our gym scavenges, he gets fighters who already have a basic education, makes them spar incessantly until they kind of figure out how to not get killed on their own, then takes credit for what they do.

One of his big selling points is he trained Carlos Navarro for a while. But then I found a fight where he cornered Carlos and REALLY listened/watched, Carlos didn't do a thing he shouted out. And in the corner all he did was gas his head up, give him nonsense designed to make him feel awesome. He does that a lot. Here's a quote:

"You wanna be faster? Just do it, just BE faster. There's no trick to it. Move faster."

Lmao, that advice could really make you into a "world champion" lol.

 

[asian-glow]

Very educational thread. I read the whole damn thing. Thanks for continuing this Sinister. Best of luck to your family and students.

 

[Koondrecht]

Man, you must have a lot of cool boxing stories. I know it's not the place but do you recommend any books?

 

[Sinister]

^Not really. This is something you gotta kinda live.

This was before the last fight, Daijon got interviewed, which he's not used to:

 

[RabbitPunch36]

He thinks he and Hagler had some shit in common as blue-collar class guys. But the truth is Hagler was everything he ever dreamed of being but didn't have the guts to go after it. So he tried to make his Son box and live vicariously through him, he fought Steve Luevano in the U.S. National finals, then quit boxing.

Doesn't talk to his Dad a whole lot nowadays.

Thing about guys like this is they almost never shoulder responsibility. Notice how "they" are always the enemy. And people like this always know better than "them" ...and yet they aren't changing things. Not to mention that every fighter he'd name as someone HE trained already knew how to fight when he got them. As of this point I believe he just thought boxing was an easy way to make a buck/have his Son live out his dream. Then none of it worked out and he's still convinced he's not the problem.

I believe you mentioned before in a thread that there is one trainer in your gym who openly calls your boxing drills bullshit, I am guessing this is the guy?

 

[ironkhan57]

I believe you mentioned before in a thread that there is one trainer in your gym who openly calls your boxing drills bullshit, I am guessing this is the guy?

Fuck that guy, if he don't teach you right and calls the person who teaches his fighters better a "bull shit" trainer, then he really has no honor at all. And sometimes I think that a trainer telling someone that another trainers teachings is bs, that's them trying to get people to come to them so that they can make more money.

Their was one guy who did that in one of my old gyms that closed down, except one of them was a crossfit instructor and the other was a flo fittness instructor (which Is kind of like calisthenics and what not for athletes), so the crossfit instructor who is a army veteran who was discharged medically (me and my brother have a feeling it was because he likes minor girls that are under 18, or that he has really mild OCD, which I don't know if that gets you discharged like that though) he would tell his crossfitters that flo fittness was bull shit so that they would stay in his class instead of going their. That guy hated me and my brother sooooo much, I have never met a veteran that hated some 18 year olds that much, he is basically the only veteran I've met that hated me. Him and another vet who was my boss at the airport and tried to get everybody to stay at the company even though the company was ducking with everybodies checks. And they bull shitted a lot.

 

[Sinister]

I believe you mentioned before in a thread that there is one trainer in your gym who openly calls your boxing drills bullshit, I am guessing this is the guy?

I believe you mentioned before in a thread that there is one trainer in your gym who openly calls your boxing drills bullshit, I am guessing this is the guy?

Yup

 

[ARIZE]

Got a question for you if you're willing to discuss it. How would you deal with someone who doesn't want any exposure to media? I mean an experience fighter that comes to you, not a kid.
And I really mean no exposure. No interviews, no uploads on social media etc...
Would you still be willing to work with him, or do you believe that promoting oneself is a necessity, both for you/gym and himself?

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, I'd tell them to find another job

 

[ironkhan57]

Yeah, I'd tell them to find another job

What if they didn't want exposure to the media because............... the illuminati is hunting them?

 

[Sinister]

They'd still need to find another job

 

[Sano]

I'm more on your side than you think. Earlier in this thread (I believe, memory is a little shady) I told of me vs. the elder Statesman trainer at our gym. He only does sparring and mitts, if they're not sparring they're hitting mitts. Little to no defense, and he puts kids in over their heads quite often. He got a 16 year-old with 2 fights knocked out by a Pro. My guy in this video got caught, it happens. He hadn't been down before that under my watch. Daijon hurt the #2 guy just before being hurt. In other words they all have aptitude, and education.

A few weeks back a Swiss Pro came to our gym. Over 100 amateur fights, more than 10 Pro fights, winning record. We arranged for him to spar one of my guys who has 29 fights and holds his own with high level work. The other trainer got mad because he intercepted them (they didn't remember my name) and offered two guys. Thing was, his guys had approximately ZERO fights and one was 15. I don't do shit like that. So my guy spars 3 rounds and gets slapped around a bit. This guy STILL puts his guys in after seeing that. Long story short they got hurt, both of them, and the Pro was TRYING to be courteous to them while still trying to get something out of it.

So I'm closer to you than that guy, and closer to that guy than you. But I'd never sway that far.

He thinks he and Hagler had some shit in common as blue-collar class guys. But the truth is Hagler was everything he ever dreamed of being but didn't have the guts to go after it. So he tried to make his Son box and live vicariously through him, he fought Steve Luevano in the U.S. National finals, then quit boxing.

Doesn't talk to his Dad a whole lot nowadays.

Thing about guys like this is they almost never shoulder responsibility. Notice how "they" are always the enemy. And people like this always know better than "them" ...and yet they aren't changing things. Not to mention that every fighter he'd name as someone HE trained already knew how to fight when he got them. As of this point I believe he just thought boxing was an easy way to make a buck/have his Son live out his dream. Then none of it worked out and he's still convinced he's not the problem.

I believe you mentioned before in a thread that there is one trainer in your gym who openly calls your boxing drills bullshit, I am guessing this is the guy?

Guy sounds ignorant. Funny how you mentioned that he was living vicariously through his son, because I was just thinking during the video of him how he seems like the kind of guy that expects from others what he would never put himself through. That's just a feeling, I don't know the man so I might be completely off base on that one.

I trained for a little while with these two young amateur boxers as I was preparing for my debut. They were 16 and 17 years old, both had boxed since early childhood with their dad as their coach. He was a very strict dude with a mean streak, former boxer himself (not a very succesful one) and had also been affiliated with a biker gang we have here. They were both really solid boxers, especially he oldest, with national titles and around 60-70 ammy fights. Absolutely despised their dad though and last time I heard they quit boxing, got involved in some shady stuff and dad was put in prison. The guy was off his rockers, he would openly deny the holocaust and had a swastika tattoo on his chest. I know someone who was inside at the same time as him and he told me he was sitting in the yard all the time with his shirt off. He was pretty chill towards me though, and his wife seemed like a nice person, but he wasn't quite right in the head.