What's your opinion on striking coaches that never fought before?

[kenpeters8]

What's your opinion on striking coaches that never fought before? I know this one guy that never fought one single sanctioned amateur bout before, and he's a stand up coach for some local low tier pro MMA fighters. Heard he told me he only fought in 1 smoker bout before when he was younger (smokers doesn't really count much as a fight since it's just a scrimmage exhibition type of bout), and then quit fighting after that. Thought it was too hard on his body. So he just concentrate on holding pads for other fighters and is actually decent at it.

I guess it's sort of like Bill Belichick, he never really played much in college, and is now one of the best football coach in the history of the NFL.

What are your thoughts on striking coaches that never fought before? And by that, I meant not even one sanctioned amateur bout. Are they qualified to coach pro kickboxers/MMA fighters? Because coaching is a lot more than just being good at holding pads.

 

[theranch]

What's your opinion on striking coaches that never fought before? I know this one guy that never fought one single sanctioned amateur bout before, and he's a stand up coach for some local low tier pro MMA fighters. Heard he told me he only fought in 1 smoker bout before when he was younger (smokers doesn't really count much as a fight since it's just a scrimmage exhibition type of bout), and then quit fighting after that. Thought it was too hard on his body. So he just concentrate on holding pads for other fighters and is actually decent at it.

I guess it's sort of like Bill Belichick, he never really played much in college, and is now one of the best football coach in the history of the NFL.

What are your thoughts on striking coaches that never fought before? And by that, I meant not even one sanctioned amateur bout. Are they qualified to coach pro kickboxers/MMA fighters? Because coaching is a lot more than just being good at holding pads.

Depends on the individual. Being a great fighter does not mean you're even a decent coach as part of being a great fighter is athletic talent so they just 'get it' and maybe aren't able to explain it to others (obviously with exceptions). Being a coach is much more about being able to explain technique and instruct it along with being a Motivator, Psychologist, therapist and in some case Father Figure. Enzo Calzaghe never Boxed a day in his life yet built world champions and one of the top Muay Thai coaches in the UK Tony Myers never fought ThaiBoxing but they understand their respective sports and understand people. That being said there are plenty of 'Coaches' who either lie about their competitive experience having never fought or constantly make up excuses for having never fought and yet will brag about their 'Tough' or 'Old School' training letting guys get brain damage in the gym with no concept of having been in the ring themselves.

 

[thehighking]

Technically someone who's never fought could still be a good coach but I wouldn't have the same level of respect for a coach that never fought. Imo one of the prerequisites for coaching should be experience competing

 

[Hotora86]

You don't have to be a good fighter to be a good coach.

 

[Cheap Shot]

As others have said, excellent fighters don't always become excellent coaches. On the same note, there have been successful coaches who have never fought.

I assume your question is more of a "in general" than "has there ever been a case".

On the whole, I've personally found VERY few coaches who I've crossed paths with that have no amateur and/or pro experience. A lot of the analysis for positioning comes, in my personal opinion, from living it. Getting hit, taking a stool, having your hands wrapped, taking that walk, those are all things that have absolutely given me a different perspective as a coach.

The internet has bred an entirely new group of "coaches" and "experts" that haven't so much as sparred. You'll see countless breakdowns of all of this subtle nuanced movements by people who have never been in the sport, and to me personally I tend to believe these breakdowns lack real substance.

I have a very, very hard time giving a high level respect to most (not all, but an overwhelming amount) of coaches who have never actually competed in the sport. The amount of serious self sacrifice that I've personally had to go through is one that I can explain to another with a level of understanding you simply can't fully understand unless you've lived it.

There is so much more to the game than just the fight, and I don't know how they could get the whole picture without having lived it.

Where did they learn to coach? Where did they learn to wrap a GOOD amateur hand wrap? How do they know what to tell a fighter between rounds? Where did they develop their strength and conditioning program? Where did they develop their nutrition and weight management program? Who have they networked with to setup sparring/smokers/sanctioned bouts? How do they run their group training? Their one on one training?

In basketball, if I pretend to be Phil Jackson when I've never taken the court myself, you may miss a layout. If I pretend I'm Freddie Roach and have never so much as sparred, you may get injured to a degree that literally changes your long term quality of life. Boxing isn't a game.

 

[Minowafanatic]

One of the best boxing coaches I ever had did not have any experience competing in the sport, but his understanding of body mechanics and positioning inside the ring was really top-notch.


edit: ^this was wrong actually, I was misremembering, the guy didn't have near the competitive experience as my other coaches but he'd fought in five or six unlicensed bouts

One of the worst coaches I ever had was a former Olympian. Like was already mentioned, Enzo Calzaghe didn't ever compete yet trained several world championship fighters.

You should judge a trainer's ability to teach on their teaching, and the progress of their fighters and how well their guys fare in competition, and not really so much on their own competitive backgrounds.

 

[thugpoet]

Chip Kelly, Andy ried, Eric soplstra, coach pop, and a ton others have successfully careers and have never played at a high level at their sports.

A coaches job is to pass knowledge and guide. It has nothing to do with their pass history. If you feel a coach is a positive influence then that's all that matters.

 

[theranch]

As others have said, excellent fighters don't always become excellent coaches. On the same note, there have been successful coaches who have never fought.

I assume your question is more of a "in general" than "has there ever been a case".

On the whole, I've personally found VERY few coaches who I've crossed paths with that have no amateur and/or pro experience. A lot of the analysis for positioning comes, in my personal opinion, from living it. Getting hit, taking a stool, having your hands wrapped, taking that walk, those are all things that have absolutely given me a different perspective as a coach.

The internet has bred an entirely new group of "coaches" and "experts" that haven't so much as sparred. You'll see countless breakdowns of all of this subtle nuanced movements by people who have never been in the sport, and to me personally I tend to believe these breakdowns lack real substance.

I have a very, very hard time giving a high level respect to most (not all, but an overwhelming amount) of coaches who have never actually competed in the sport. The amount of serious self sacrifice that I've personally had to go through is one that I can explain to another with a level of understanding you simply can't fully understand unless you've lived it.

There is so much more to the game than just the fight, and I don't know how they could get the whole picture without having lived it.

Where did they learn to coach? Where did they learn to wrap a GOOD amateur hand wrap? How do they know what to tell a fighter between rounds? Where did they develop their strength and conditioning program? Where did they develop their nutrition and weight management program? Who have they networked with to setup sparring/smokers/sanctioned bouts? How do they run their group training? Their one on one training?

In basketball, if I pretend to be Phil Jackson when I've never taken the court myself, you may miss a layout. If I pretend I'm Freddie Roach and have never so much as sparred, you may get injured to a degree that literally changes your long term quality of life. Boxing isn't a game.

Purely for discussions sake not trying to argue with you, I can completley see this point especially when it comes to the actual struggle and graft of Fighting i think a fighter 40 minutes before a fight wracked with nerves is much more likely to trust someone who has been in that situation and experienced all the brutal realities of a fight camp. succesful coaches who haven't fought have still very much been in and around gyms and my opinion is that most coaches should apprentice under a more experienced coach to learn all the things you've talked about. That being said i was given some Horrific strength and conditioning and Nutrition advice as an Amateur from Coaches who had 150+ fights. While i do love a good overly fancy article i think a lot of the internet analysts and their 'Neo footwork' completley forget that fighting is just that, Fighting. Teaching a guy 'Phasic shifts' is no good if he's not willing to get smashed in the head in a ring for others amusement and coaching with no knowledge is incredibly dangerous you can't just let people who have the guts to step in there tale brain damage because you haven't taught them how to parry a jab (Sorry this ended up being a lot longer than intended).

 

[shincheckin]

Great fighters dont always make great coaches as many have already said. You can have a poor fighter make a great coach, a great fighter make a bad coach, a great fighter make a great coach, a bad fighter make a bad coach. Does the coach need to be the champion of the world best fighter there ever was? no. But he does need to have some experience fighting, alot of the top coaches in combat sports, were high level amateurs - low level pros, and im talking some of the best guys in the game. Cus D'amato only had a handfull of amateur fights. Freddy Roach I believe had about 20 or so pro fights, which is still a high skill level, hard to accomplish, and very respectable, but he wasnt mr super champion of the world. He is however going to go down in boxing history as one of the greatest coaches of the sport.

long story short, they need at least a few fights IMO.

 

[shincheckin]

The internet has bred an entirely new group of "coaches" and "experts" that haven't so much as sparred.

I agree with you so much man, to many ppl faking the funk, never paid their dues, etc.

you gotta earn your stripes in this game.

 

[tekkenfan]

my first boxing coach never fought but was super technical my boxing coach of the past 9 years fought he isnt as technical but can teach you more about how to be a real fighter

so i dont think a guy has to fight to eb a coach as long as he knows his stuff but if he hasnt fought he cant really teach you a fighters mentality ect thats something that really helped me with my second coach

the only problem i had with the first coach is he wanted every single punch thrown with perfect technique when sparring ect and as everyone knows on the fly during exchanges not every punch is pretty and perfect that came form his lack of experience but i learnt great technical knowledge his guys all did very well and had great records from 80s till he retired in 2010

 

[georgegreece]

Not worth your time.

 

[kenpeters8]

I brought this up because at first I wanted to ask that guy, why the hell are these pro fighters learning from you, who never even fought amateur before. And he said look at Bill Belichick. Best NFL coach ever and he only played a few games at a very low level college.

He does make a point. I guess the Enzo Calzaghe argument also work. It's just that these cases happened maybe 1 out of 30. Now a days, there's so many "coaches" that never fought before and is training pro fighters, they think knowing how to hold pads better than decent will automatically make them a "coach."

 

[georgegreece]

He does make a point. I guess the Enzo Calzaghe argument also work. It's just that these cases happened maybe 1 out of 30. Now a days, there's so many "coaches" that never fought before and is training pro fighters, they think knowing how to hold pads better than decent will automatically make them a "coach."

Yeah they're closer than you think, depending on the martial art these guys get called out pretty fast. MMA gyms are full with these guys. It's the only time when the belt system brought by asian martial arts can be put into good use other than making more money. As any amateur fighter who has a little self respect you should check with your local martial art associations regarding the coaches of the school you want to attend to although these credentials can often be bought off.

I've never had a coach that didn't compete at national and international level in any sport.

 

[panamaican]

Generally? It depends on the extent of their personal training. You don't need to play in the NBA to coach basketball. But if you don't play regularly then you shouldn't be coaching it either. Some details and elements you can only learn, and thus only teach, by experiencing it.

You can still train and spar in combat sports, even if you've never taken a formal fight, pro or amateur. I don't know if that's enough to make you a good coach but I'd take that over someone who doesn't even spar regularly.

 

[kenpeters8]

Depends on the individual. Being a great fighter does not mean you're even a decent coach as part of being a great fighter is athletic talent so they just 'get it' and maybe aren't able to explain it to others (obviously with exceptions). Being a coach is much more about being able to explain technique and instruct it along with being a Motivator, Psychologist, therapist and in some case Father Figure. Enzo Calzaghe never Boxed a day in his life yet built world champions and one of the top Muay Thai coaches in the UK Tony Myers never fought ThaiBoxing but they understand their respective sports and understand people. That being said there are plenty of 'Coaches' who either lie about their competitive experience having never fought or constantly make up excuses for having never fought and yet will brag about their 'Tough' or 'Old School' training letting guys get brain damage in the gym with no concept of having been in the ring themselves.

I'm not going to drop any names but I actually know about this dude that's a "Muay Thai coach" who owns a gym that's 30 minutes away from my house. He's known to have never fought or even sparred before, and lied over 20 years about his past fighting experience in Thailand. I'm surprised he's STILL training some pro fighters now because some years ago, his secret was outed. He was actually born and grew up in the USA, his family was well off, he's not born in Thailand and did not grew up there like he claimed. That should already be a given back then because this fucker speaks perfect English with no broken Asian accent! He never fought in Thailand or anywhere else before like he claimed he did. He learned Muay Thai from instructional video tapes back in the 90's and opened a gym cause his parents had money. He never sparred because he always complain about "an old injury" from his fighting days. Major fraud! He actually cornered a fighter twice in the UFC, but only because that guy he cornered was a BJJ black belt that he hired to teach BJJ at his Muay Thai gym. LOL!

Sadly there are PLENTY of these type of fraud coaches around now a days opening gyms left and right. They think they can all be like Enzo Calzaghe (by the way, RIP), who probably never even sparred before in his life, but trained several world champions. Seriously though, coaching is much more than just knowing how to hold pads better than decent. ANYONE can learn how to hold pads. Especially now a days when these fake ass posers can just go on YouTube and Instagram and copycat other real coaches.

 

[shincheckin]

I'm not going to drop any names but I actually know about this dude that's a "Muay Thai coach" who owns a gym that's 30 minutes away from my house. He's known to have never fought or even sparred before, and lied over 20 years about his past fighting experience in Thailand. I'm surprised he's STILL training some pro fighters now because some years ago, his secret was outed. He was actually born and grew up in the USA, his family was well off, he's not born in Thailand and did not grew up there like he claimed. That should already be a given back then because this fucker speaks perfect English with no broken Asian accent! He never fought in Thailand or anywhere else before like he claimed he did. He learned Muay Thai from instructional video tapes back in the 90's and opened a gym cause his parents had money. He never sparred because he always complain about "an old injury" from his fighting days. Major fraud! He actually cornered a fighter twice in the UFC, but only because that guy he cornered was a BJJ black belt that he hired to teach BJJ at his Muay Thai gym. LOL!

Sadly there are PLENTY of these type of fraud coaches around now a days opening gyms left and right. They think they can all be like Enzo Calzaghe (by the way, RIP), who probably never even sparred before in his life, but trained several world champions. Seriously though, coaching is much more than just knowing how to hold pads better than decent. ANYONE can learn how to hold pads. Especially now a days when these fake ass posers can just go on YouTube and Instagram and copycat other real coaches.

out of all the combat sports, muay thai seems to be the most affected with this problem. It is slowly changing now as MT is really starting to take off in the states as the new generation replaces the old. The old owner of OCKMMA which is a long time martial arts gym in OC didnt have any fighting experience to my knowledge, the gym taught muay thai, is connected with the TBA, ajarn chai would do seminars there etc, but the coach didnt have any MT experience, his claim to fame was training Kali with Dan Inosanto as I guess he used to date his daughter or something along those lines.

Anyways, there is a new owner of OCKMMA, I cant think of his name off the top of my head right now, but I know he has experience in savate at a international level, I got to meet him at the nathan corbett seminar and we talked a bit about his fighting days. Cool guy, I think the gym will do much better with him running it. Its a nice large facility but I think they are a bit more fight oriented now than they were in the past.

 

[theranch]

I'm not going to drop any names but I actually know about this dude that's a "Muay Thai coach" who owns a gym that's 30 minutes away from my house. He's known to have never fought or even sparred before, and lied over 20 years about his past fighting experience in Thailand. I'm surprised he's STILL training some pro fighters now because some years ago, his secret was outed. He was actually born and grew up in the USA, his family was well off, he's not born in Thailand and did not grew up there like he claimed. That should already be a given back then because this fucker speaks perfect English with no broken Asian accent! He never fought in Thailand or anywhere else before like he claimed he did. He learned Muay Thai from instructional video tapes back in the 90's and opened a gym cause his parents had money. He never sparred because he always complain about "an old injury" from his fighting days. Major fraud! He actually cornered a fighter twice in the UFC, but only because that guy he cornered was a BJJ black belt that he hired to teach BJJ at his Muay Thai gym. LOL!

Sadly there are PLENTY of these type of fraud coaches around now a days opening gyms left and right. They think they can all be like Enzo Calzaghe (by the way, RIP), who probably never even sparred before in his life, but trained several world champions. Seriously though, coaching is much more than just knowing how to hold pads better than decent. ANYONE can learn how to hold pads. Especially now a days when these fake ass posers can just go on YouTube and Instagram and copycat other real coaches.

This is exactly the type of person who should NOT be coaching im surprised he hasn't been boycotted completely, complete disregard for his fighters health.

 

[kenpeters8]

This is exactly the type of person who should NOT be coaching im surprised he hasn't been boycotted completely, complete disregard for his fighters health.

Well that fraud asshole claims he's a legit coach just because he cornered couple of UFC fights. Even though the guy he cornered is a BJJ black belt he hired to teach BJJ at his Muay Thai gym.

And I feel you. Like I said, just cause you can hold pads pretty good, doesn't mean you're a "coach." SOOOOO many of these "coaches" that has never fought or spar before, are opening gyms left and right, and training people how to fight. Sadly it's normal now.

 

[Ilk]

In soccer there are a lot if examples for world class coaches who never played soccer. Current Chelsea coach is an ex banker for example and he is a very fine tactician.

In Germany at the soccer coach academies it is full with people that never played soccer themselves.

The problem with fight sports and coaching is that there are no licences for coaches which you can take via courses.