What's your opinion on striking coaches that never fought before?

What fighters do you think had had a zen approach to fighting? You can include mma, muay thai, or kickboxing fighters if you want to.

Anyone who can be honest about being hurt, how much time they have in the game, etc.
 
A striking coach who isn't preparing folks for competition isn't a striking coach. They're a dance teacher with heavy bags.

The commoner who is on the outside looking in loves to think that anyone with a good eye for technique and a love of the fight game can become a great coach. Although possible, those who live the life of a coach understand that it's the exception to the rule.

There is a reason the same names show up as examples over and over again of "great" coaches who never competed. For every Calzaghe, there are literally thousands of Freddie Roach's.

Although I'm neutral on this subject on coaches must fought to coach other fighters, that's a bit exaggerating. I'll say for every Enzo Calzaghe, there's 30 Freddie Roach's. That would sound more realistic.

And as someone mentioned already, Greg Jackson never fought before.
 
Although I'm neutral on this subject on coaches must fought to coach other fighters, that's a bit exaggerating. I'll say for every Enzo Calzaghe, there's 30 Freddie Roach's. That would sound more realistic.

And as someone mentioned already, Greg Jackson never fought before.

Cheap Shot just pointed out that you have to keep using the same handful of names over and over, and as an example you reuse one. You're making his point for him.
 
I would just like to point out in regards to all these other sport comparisons being made.

I was knocked out playing ice hockey. Knocked the fuck out guys. You would think that after being knocked out playing ice hockey, it would be similar to fighting where you could also get knocked out.....It is not.
 
A striking coach who isn't preparing folks for competition isn't a striking coach. They're a dance teacher with heavy bags.

The commoner who is on the outside looking in loves to think that anyone with a good eye for technique and a love of the fight game can become a great coach. Although possible, those who live the life of a coach understand that it's the exception to the rule.

There is a reason the same names show up as examples over and over again of "great" coaches who never competed. For every Calzaghe, there are literally thousands of Freddie Roach's.

The idea is alive and well in this sub-forum. Some of the people who are the most vocal about technical analysis or comments on what a coach should/shouldn't do have exactly zero skin in the game. A keyboard expert writes some blog about Lomachenko angles and everyone slobs on his knob like he's a genius. Meanwhile I'm wiping blood of the face of 20 year old kid who trains his balls off every day and is trying to get out of the third round of a fight with a local animal.

For those who think they can be great coaches without having made that ring walk, head to a local gym and ask for a job, let me know how that goes for you. Or, instead, stick to writing a blog about shifting or a controlled fall.

This touches upon another modern phenomenon that grinds my gears. Ever since Dadi made the "Charley Burley: Analyzing Genius" video, you have guys who have made something of a career copying that basic format, and I've heard some of them have even began trying to teach Boxing with barely more than an analytical eye. Theres a good reason boxing "analysts," as with other Sports, aren't usually teaching the damn sport. But fighting sports have so little regard for etiquette in place that people can get away with this shit. It's as bad as the Daddy trainers.
 
Although I'm neutral on this subject on coaches must fought to coach other fighters, that's a bit exaggerating. I'll say for every Enzo Calzaghe, there's 30 Freddie Roach's. That would sound more realistic.

And as someone mentioned already, Greg Jackson never fought before.

Yup, people have mentioned Greg already...
He's on the exceptionally short list of successful coaches who never trained before. You're not talking about a list of 10 people, you're talking about the same 4-5 names as a "see, it's waaaaaaay more common than you think!"

Ratio isn't anywhere near 30-1. If you aren't in the game, you could probably have that opinion. Problem is, plenty of us live it every day.

I'll be taking my stable to the Golden Gloves this year, the same way I do every year. In that time, I'll share a locker room with a bunch of other coaches from New England. I'll know every face in there, and they'll know mine. I'll remember when they fought, and they'll remember when I fought.

You can't fake it in this sport. People have good memories and respect is a long road, with good reason. There is usually that "one guy" who never fought, and he's largely ignored.

Again, someone wants to work at a Title Boxing Club and help people have fun and get in shape, that's cool. Want to make a blog about the subtleties of Canelo's feint? That's great too. The lessons learned in the ring are ones that can't just be analyzed, they have to be experienced. It is what it is.
 
This touches upon another modern phenomenon that grinds my gears. Ever since Dadi made the "Charley Burley: Analyzing Genius" video, you have guys who have made something of a career copying that basic format, and I've heard some of them have even began trying to teach Boxing with barely more than an analytical eye. Theres a good reason boxing "analysts," as with other Sports, aren't usually teaching the damn sport. But fighting sports have so little regard for etiquette in place that people can get away with this shit. It's as bad as the Daddy trainers.

The largest problem with Muay Thai in the US is lack of qualified and experienced coaches. There are so many coaches running muay thai gyms that never fought muay thai. Alot of them were karate or TKD guys that decided to teach muay thai as well. You then also have muay thai coaches that fought a couple of times but overall the skill level and knowledge of the sport was very low and your gym choices very limited.

In 20 years I have seen MT go from something no one knew about and could barely pronounce, to MMA being "invented" and now in the past 10 years muay thai growing a lot indirectly because of MMA. Right now, we are at the very beginning of an explosion in muay thai, and that is indirectly because of us getting more better coaches as the previous generation is now getting older and turning into coaches so we now have guys coaching that do actually have the fight experience, where for the previous generation it was guys faking the funk or guys with few fights.

forgot too mention were also getting overseas coaches relocating to the US such as nathan corbette and from what i hear liam harrison soon.

Long story short, i guess what im trying to say is that as much of a problem as it is with all combat sports, I think muay thai was probably the most affected by it.
 
Yup, people have mentioned Greg already...
He's on the exceptionally short list of successful coaches who never trained before. You're not talking about a list of 10 people, you're talking about the same 4-5 names as a "see, it's waaaaaaay more common than you think!"

Ratio isn't anywhere near 30-1. If you aren't in the game, you could probably have that opinion. Problem is, plenty of us live it every day.

I'll be taking my stable to the Golden Gloves this year, the same way I do every year. In that time, I'll share a locker room with a bunch of other coaches from New England. I'll know every face in there, and they'll know mine. I'll remember when they fought, and they'll remember when I fought.

You can't fake it in this sport. People have good memories and respect is a long road, with good reason. There is usually that "one guy" who never fought, and he's largely ignored.

Again, someone wants to work at a Title Boxing Club and help people have fun and get in shape, that's cool. Want to make a blog about the subtleties of Canelo's feint? That's great too. The lessons learned in the ring are ones that can't just be analyzed, they have to be experienced. It is what it is.

I see where you coming from. I agree that you can't fake it as a coach in fight sport. I'm not choosing sides on I agree or disagree with coaches that never fought before should coach fighters,. like I said, there are exceptions. I'm going to stay neutral on this subject. But I am against coaches that never fought before but claimed they have. I would have more respect for them if they're honest about their fighting experience, if they never fought before, just admit they never fought before. You don't have to fake it to kick it.

Cheap Shot, let me ask you a "what if" question. Just curious how would you feel IF one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by another fighter with a coach that never fought before? Would you continue to talk shit about coaches that never fought before? Or would that humble you up on this subject? Just wondering. Cause I personal know one shit talker that used to fight pro and he was talking mad shit about his opponent before the fight, telling him he would knock his ass out just cause he train with former world champion coaches and his opponent's coach never fought before. That shit talker end up getting knocked the fuck out by his opponent that has a coach who never fought before. It was pretty hilarious.
 
You're over-fixating on the notion of categorization. Let's simplify:

- an act which significantly increases your chance of not only dying, but ending up permanently damaged ( especially cognitively ) carries a more substantial risk than one that does not. Even if this risk is merely the bold perception of it, because you FEEL it happening to you, or that it could happen at any second. The doesn't have to pan-out statistically when compared to all of humanity.

Simultaneously:

- any job that carries that same risk industrially is also a higher level of pressure. Logging, firefighting, building skyscrapers in Malaysia with little to no safety equipment. They're higher risk because they ARE higher risk. Your chances of dying go up, and you're aware of it.

When you are aware of what's happening you often have two choices, find the mental strength to accept any possible outcome (Zen), or become delusional to the actual chances it could happen to YOU. Unfortunately the second is the most common, just look at how difficult it is for fighters to even admit they were hurt when CLEARLY they were hurt. The development of that sort of thing is a direct reflection of the different (and most with relevant experience would agree, greater) pressure faced.

Most other Sports just do not have that. They are like a stove without the HOTTEST setting.

I'm fixating on the categorization of it because that's what some of you guys were trying to do with the golf and boxing comparison.

I'm saying just leave it at it's different rather than trying to grade who has more or less pressure in their respective sports. That's it.

I do agree that in fighting that does seem to be the mindset mostly from what I've seen and I'm sure you probably are more intimate/familiar with that mindset as a striking coach as you probably witness it first hand.

Pressure is hard to gauge because everyone's experiences are different & subjective. Speaking in generalities in this case doesn't help.

You might be able hit that 'highest setting' in boxing but you might crumble in something else which might be on a 'lower setting' in your perspective. That's why I think it's best to avoid trying to scale things and just accept their different.

Apart from that I appreciate what you guys have to deal with in boxing. I'm glad I don't box for a living.



I see your point regarding being able to measure pressure and agree with it.

Although combat sports are "sports" they are fighting with rules.

You can play other sports, you cannot play boxing.

Sure we compete in combat sports for the most part. But it is a game that's why it's a part of the Olympic Games.

It's still a sport even though we might not play it. You can compete in games also.
 
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Gonna give my opinion on some subjects discussed here. It's completely personal, and it's not about trying to change someone mind.

Before going into MT, I played football (soccer) in a pretty descent level. I then went into MT, had a half-long career.
I've done some ITF and fought for the nationals among other smaller tournaments. And I've had some boxing and MMA smokers mostly for the fun of it.
For a long time I was into skate and BMX. Never was near the level of the pros, but have some friends who made it.
I'm also into MX and SuperMoto stunts.
Now, am saying all of this to look cool and get me lots of syber chicks, but also to try to compare the feelings of each sport.

Again, this is just for me:

There was no scarier feeling than my first times in the ring. And still, many years later, the fear is still there. I just learned how to deal with it a bit better.

Football was about fun. You can be dead tired, you can be disappointed from a lost that you caused. (and that is not a good feeling, when your teammates depend on you). And you can get hurt.
But, I never had any sensation of danger. I never experienced fear.

For extreme sports, I had some, but it was up to me to stop or do more. You don't have an opponent to dictate what to do. It's just about challenging yourself to do more, try something exciting and scary. There was a sense of danger, but nothing near what I fell the days before a MT bout. And it just last for a few seconds.

The only thing that was scarier was the couple of times a crashed hard with my motorbike on the streets (and not during stunts on the parking lot). And it's a completely different type of "scary" moment. It's for the couple of seconds during the crash, and then for a period of time afterwards.
But that's not really a sport, it's just stupidity...

But the anxiety before the fight, is nothing I've experienced in the other sports. Even for my TKD tournaments, even if I was already experienced in MT, and their rules are semi-contact, I was anxious before the matches.

So for me there is no comparisons between sports, combat sports and x-treme sports.

As for grappling vs standup, sorry but there is no comparisons.You cannot compare the: I got to submit this guy vs I got to KO this guy. Every move your opponent makes is to hurt you. He wants to hurt your body so much, than you cannot stand up... And on your side, you have to get pass through that pain and fear, and continue to fight. And the only way to stop you is to make your brain hit your skull and see black (thats racist)


For the trainers: I believe in the necessity of him having experience in the ring. And not just some smokers. Was going to type another long ass part, but I dont feel like it anymore...
 
While I've already said in the thread that i don't believe you have to have competitive experience to be a great coach i think some people in this thread are being rather dismissive of what it actually takes to fight. Saying the pressure to complete in combat sports is just like the pressure in any other sport is a sure sign you definitely have never fought. I swam at a decent competitive level and was always a nervous wreck before tournaments but it was nothing like the literal obsession for weeks leading up to fights. It's not just win or lose its so much more. Have you ever had a tooth chipped or disloged? It'll bother you for weeks with how noticeable it is and knowing there's not much you can do to fix it. In a fight you could lose several teeth or all of them, you could have your nose plastered over the sideof your face you could be paralysed. How can you argue with other people that the mental pressure of a fight is the same as any other sport if you have zero idea what that mental pressure is like? My first Amateur Boxing fight i got my arse kicked i froze up in front of the crowd and got beaten by a kid i should have smashed and that's the fight i learned the most from. Not competing is not a sign of a Coward but it's a bit disingenuous to argue with those who have and tell them what they were feeling if you haven't done it yourself.

I don't think I'm being dismissive. In fact it's the opposite - people in here are being dismissive of the mental pressures in things outside of combat sports without ever having done them. I'm sure the mental pressures in boxing must be insane to cope with. But I wouldn't try to say that that experience is somehow more intense than some other activity or job. But others in here are saying that.

That is the point. I guess because this is a martial arts forum you're only going one specific perspective.

All I'm saying is that pressure in each activity are unique to that activity. Sure they are different. Let's leave it at that and not try to insinuate one is more intense than the other.

Can anyone in here really compare/grade the mental pressure of long distance running and competing in combat sports? Because they are uniquely different experiences.
 
Gonna give my opinion on some subjects discussed here. It's completely personal, and it's not about trying to change someone mind.

Before going into MT, I played football (soccer) in a pretty descent level. I then went into MT, had a half-long career.
I've done some ITF and fought for the nationals among other smaller tournaments. And I've had some boxing and MMA smokers mostly for the fun of it.
For a long time I was into skate and BMX. Never was near the level of the pros, but have some friends who made it.
I'm also into MX and SuperMoto stunts.
Now, am saying all of this to look cool and get me lots of syber chicks, but also to try to compare the feelings of each sport.

Again, this is just for me:

There was no scarier feeling than my first times in the ring. And still, many years later, the fear is still there. I just learned how to deal with it a bit better.

Football was about fun. You can be dead tired, you can be disappointed from a lost that you caused. (and that is not a good feeling, when your teammates depend on you). And you can get hurt.
But, I never had any sensation of danger. I never experienced fear.

For extreme sports, I had some, but it was up to me to stop or do more. You don't have an opponent to dictate what to do. It's just about challenging yourself to do more, try something exciting and scary. There was a sense of danger, but nothing near what I fell the days before a MT bout. And it just last for a few seconds.

The only thing that was scarier was the couple of times a crashed hard with my motorbike on the streets (and not during stunts on the parking lot). And it's a completely different type of "scary" moment. It's for the couple of seconds during the crash, and then for a period of time afterwards.
But that's not really a sport, it's just stupidity...

But the anxiety before the fight, is nothing I've experienced in the other sports. Even for my TKD tournaments, even if I was already experienced in MT, and their rules are semi-contact, I was anxious before the matches.

So for me there is no comparisons between sports, combat sports and x-treme sports.

As for grappling vs standup, sorry but there is no comparisons.You cannot compare the: I got to submit this guy vs I got to KO this guy. Every move your opponent makes is to hurt you. He wants to hurt your body so much, than you cannot stand up... And on your side, you have to get pass through that pain and fear, and continue to fight. And the only way to stop you is to make your brain hit your skull and see black (thats racist)


For the trainers: I believe in the necessity of him having experience in the ring. And not just some smokers. Was going to type another long ass part, but I dont feel like it anymore...

i agree with you dude. However for some people if they have never done something, or seen something, or tasted something, they cannot comprehend it. so maybe lets say someone is color blind and sees the world in black and white. Well you can explain colors to them, but they cannot comprehend it, they just cant know what its like to see the color red for example. You can describe it all you want, they just wont get it.


I have done a shitload of sports in my life, motocross was one of them, I really love motocross, and I used to race motocross. The fear and anxiety of racing motocross, jumping huge tabletops, crashing and getting hurt badly (been there done that) are still nothing compared to fighting.

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I'm fixating on the categorization of it because that's what some of you guys were trying to do with the golf and boxing comparison.

I'm saying just leave it at it's different rather than trying to grade who has more or less pressure in their respective sports. That's it.

I do agree that in fighting that does seem to be the mindset mostly from what I've seen and I'm sure you probably are more intimate/familiar with that mindset as a striking coach as you probably witness it first hand.

Pressure is hard to gauge because everyone's experiences are different & subjective. Speaking in generalities in this case doesn't help.

You might be able hit that 'highest setting' in boxing but you might crumble in something else which might be on a 'lower setting' in your perspective. That's why I think it's best to avoid trying to scale things and just accept their different.





Sure we compete in combat sports for the most part. But it is a game that's why it's a part of the Olympic Games.

It's still a sport even though we might not play it. You can compete in games also.

sword fighting is a sport. if one was to have an actual sword fight, would it be a sport still, would it still be a game, would we be playing sword fighting or would we be fighting for our life?
 
@shincheckin

Nice... been a while since I've done dirt. Have a husky sumo 701 since a couple of months, and I' m feeling like a teen again. Riding with a big foking smile in my face, doing hoolies in the lot...

Sorry for the out of subject post.
 
@shincheckin

Nice... been a while since I've done dirt. Have a husky sumo 701 since a couple of months, and I' m feeling like a teen again. Riding with a big foking smile in my face, doing hoolies in the lot...

Sorry for the out of subject post.

I want to get into supermoto
 
A striking coach who isn't preparing folks for competition isn't a striking coach. They're a dance teacher with heavy bags.

The commoner who is on the outside looking in loves to think that anyone with a good eye for technique and a love of the fight game can become a great coach. Although possible, those who live the life of a coach understand that it's the exception to the rule.

There is a reason the same names show up as examples over and over again of "great" coaches who never competed. For every Calzaghe, there are literally thousands of Freddie Roach's.

The idea is alive and well in this sub-forum. Some of the people who are the most vocal about technical analysis or comments on what a coach should/shouldn't do have exactly zero skin in the game. A keyboard expert writes some blog about Lomachenko angles and everyone slobs on his knob like he's a genius. Meanwhile I'm wiping blood of the face of 20 year old kid who trains his balls off every day and is trying to get out of the third round of a fight with a local animal.

For those who think they can be great coaches without having made that ring walk, head to a local gym and ask for a job, let me know how that goes for you. Or, instead, stick to writing a blog about shifting or a controlled fall.

There is a lot of ego behind that statement. Since when has martial arts coaching or striking coaching only been about competition?

No offence dude but there are guys who've been training much longer than you and have been much more dedicated to their craft. To insinuate that they're a dance teacher with heavy bags is a silly thing to say. Especially if at the end of the day they might whoop your ass.

The same names show up as examples over and over again is because those names are public. That's it. No-one here has said there are many Calzaghe's. All that is being said is that they do exist at the top echelon of their respective sports.

As far as the technical analysis goes - I definitely agree. There are a lot of analysis "experts" that just learn stuff from legit trainers and aren't coaches nor have they ever fought. I've seen information in this sub-forum given by posters who are legit coaches that is taken and reused in articles without any reference to where/who they actually learned/read it from.

Unfortunately there are shitty people like that out there - so you have my sympathy there.

Like I said in my posts above - if you're taking a kid or student to competition - it's probably best to have some competition experience first.
 
sword fighting is a sport. if one was to have an actual sword fight, would it be a sport still, would it still be a game, would we be playing sword fighting or would we be fighting for our life?

Funnily enough I've tried it. It's hard to describe it. But it's definitely a sport. You wear a lot of protective gear and the weapons edges are very blunt for obvious reasons. Of course it still hurts getting hit.

It would be really fighting for your life if there was no protection and the weapons edge was sharp.

But then I'm sure all of us have had those moments outside of sports. I know I have.
 
For me it goes like this:
Sports you have pressure to do well. (all competitive sports)
Sports you have pressure to do well and not hurt yourself. (xtreme sports and some others)
Sports you have pressure to do well and not get hurt by an opponent. (combat sports)
 
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