What's your opinion on striking coaches that never fought before?

[shincheckin]

Funnily enough I've tried it. It's hard to describe it. But it's definitely a sport. You wear a lot of protective gear and the weapons edges are very blunt for obvious reasons. Of course it still hurts getting hit.

It would be really fighting for your life if there was no protection and the weapons edge was sharp.

But then I'm sure all of us have had those moments outside of sports. I know I have.

much like in fighting when we remove the pads and head gear and elbow pads and now the weapon edges of the elbows are sharp and easy to slice you open needing stitches and get your nose broken and teeth knocked out from a knee to the face and jaw broken from a punch and orbital bone fractured from a kick.............then it would really be fighting for your life...........do you see my point or is it still just a game and your not really fighting for your life yet?

 

[II Muchetto II]

I think it can important for a coach to have some level of competition experience, but not essential. Some good coaches I know were not good fighters, but are amazing "gym" fighters, they hold they're own massively in sparring and demonstrate tecnique perfectly when teaching/instructing. But couldn't do it on the big stage. But they understood what they lacked and this helped them instil that missing part into others.

I have also had a retired experianced fighter as a coach who was a little older, and for me he struggled to evolve and he just tought what the was taught without too much innovation, it ended up being really out dated and the quality of the students he had was really poor.

I think if the coach doesn't have the best fight resume but likes to get involved with the training and sparring it can be a plus. A prime example would be firas zahabi, I'm pretty sure he hasn't got much of a extensive fight career but is always training with his guys and getting involved. Being able to hang with Pro fighters in trainings shows a good understanding and ability to me, and if a large portion of the students are getting results then it speaks for itself

 

[Sinister]

I see where you coming from. I agree that you can't fake it as a coach in fight sport. I'm not choosing sides on I agree or disagree with coaches that never fought before should coach fighters,. like I said, there are exceptions. I'm going to stay neutral on this subject. But I am against coaches that never fought before but claimed they have. I would have more respect for them if they're honest about their fighting experience, if they never fought before, just admit they never fought before. You don't have to fake it to kick it.

Cheap Shot, let me ask you a "what if" question. Just curious how would you feel IF one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by another fighter with a coach that never fought before? Would you continue to talk shit about coaches that never fought before? Or would that humble you up on this subject? Just wondering. Cause I personal know one shit talker that used to fight pro and he was talking mad shit about his opponent before the fight, telling him he would knock his ass out just cause he train with former world champion coaches and his opponent's coach never fought before. That shit talker end up getting knocked the fuck out by his opponent that has a coach who never fought before. It was pretty hilarious.

There's a thousand reasons a guy may win or lose a fight that have little to do with the training. Good teachers focus more on the path than on the destination. Once you're out there and a fight has commenced, you're playing with chaos. Chaos doesn't play favorites. I often tell my fighters "this Sport is not about trying to get everything to go your way, it's more about how you respond when nothing is going your way."

My fighter Daijon, in his first match I was standing across the ring from Jeff Mayweather, and I was still virtually unknown at the time. Daijon won, handily, but I doubt that had much effect on Jeff's baseline philosophies. Having fighters lose, and lose badly, that just comes with the territory. We don't forget our viewpoints based on a guy losing a fight unless it's clear it was something missing on our part. Which happens. No one here is suggesting that BECAUSE we fought before, we're perfect.

 

[Sinister]

much like in fighting when we remove the pads and head gear and elbow pads and now the weapon edges of the elbows are sharp and easy to slice you open needing stitches and get your nose broken and teeth knocked out from a knee to the face and jaw broken from a punch and orbital bone fractured from a kick.............then it would really be fighting for your life...........do you see my point or is it still just a game and your not really fighting for your life yet?

It's only NOT fighting for your life if there's no significant risk of death. If the threat is significant to the degree it needs to be addressed in the preparation to do it, then you cannot discount the factor preparing for that posable outcome plays. They're called "combat sports" because they are both, sport AND combat.

 

[shincheckin]

It's only NOT fighting for your life if there's no significant risk of death. If the rest is significant to the degree it needs to be addressed in the preparation to do it, then you cannot discount the factor preparing for that posable outcome plays. They're called "combat sports" because they are both, sport AND combat.

yes i agree, its a sport and a fight at the same time, but people cant talk it down like its just a sport, it is still also a fight.

with combat sports your still in there fighting for your life. Sure its not a fight to the death, but the body and mind still feels that way.

just re read your post, looks like were saying the same thing

 

[Sinister]

There is a lot of ego behind that statement. Since when has martial arts coaching or striking coaching only been about competition?

No offence dude but there are guys who've been training much longer than you and have been much more dedicated to their craft. To insinuate that they're a dance teacher with heavy bags is a silly thing to say. Especially if at the end of the day they might whoop your ass.

The same names show up as examples over and over again is because those names are public. That's it. No-one here has said there are many Calzaghe's. All that is being said is that they do exist at the top echelon of their respective sports.

As far as the technical analysis goes - I definitely agree. There are a lot of analysis "experts" that just learn stuff from legit trainers and aren't coaches nor have they ever fought. I've seen information in this sub-forum given by posters who are legit coaches that is taken and reused in articles without any reference to where/who they actually learned/read it from.

Unfortunately there are shitty people like that out there - so you have my sympathy there.

Like I said in my posts above - if you're taking a kid or student to competition - it's probably best to have some competition experience first.

Wha

yes i agree, its a sport and a fight at the same time, but people cant talk it down like its just a sport, it is still also a fight.

with combat sports your still in there fighting for your life. Sure its not a fight to the death, but the body and mind still feels that way.

just re read your post, looks like were saying the same thing

Backing your point. If you ever think "this could get me killed, I could die doing this" then that is a factor and must be accounted for. And anyone who has taken a beating in a ring has thought that.

 

[kenpeters8]

I think it can important for a coach to have some level of competition experience, but not essential. Some good coaches I know were not good fighters, but are amazing "gym" fighters, they hold they're own massively in sparring and demonstrate tecnique perfectly when teaching/instructing. But couldn't do it on the big stage. But they understood what they lacked and this helped them instil that missing part into others.

I have also had a retired experianced fighter as a coach who was a little older, and for me he struggled to evolve and he just tought what the was taught without too much innovation, it ended up being really out dated and the quality of the students he had was really poor.

I think if the coach doesn't have the best fight resume but likes to get involved with the training and sparring it can be a plus. A prime example would be firas zahabi, I'm pretty sure he hasn't got much of a extensive fight career but is always training with his guys and getting involved. Being able to hang with Pro fighters in trainings shows a good understanding and ability to me, and if a large portion of the students are getting results then it speaks for itself

Firaz Zahabi is definitely a great MMA coach. He never fought pro MMA before, but when he spar and grapple with his amateur and pro fighters, he can held his own standing up and he can tap a lot of people on the ground. He's a legit BJJ black belt under John Danaher.

 

[kenpeters8]

There's a thousand reasons a guy may win or lose a fight that have little to do with the training. Good teachers focus more on the path than on the destination. Once you're out there and a fight has commenced, you're playing with chaos. Chaos doesn't play favorites. I often tell my fighters "this Sport is not about trying to get everything to go your way, it's more about how you respond when nothing is going your way."

My fighter Daijon, in his first match I was standing across the ring from Jeff Mayweather, and I was still virtually unknown at the time. Daijon won, handily, but I doubt that had much effect on Jeff's baseline philosophies. Having fighters lose, and lose badly, that just comes with the territory. We don't forget our viewpoints based on a guy losing a fight unless it's clear it was something missing on our part. Which happens. No one here is suggesting that BECAUSE we fought before, we're perfect.

Since you want to answer someone else's question, at least answer it correctly and not add in a whole additional and irrelevant tangent rant in it. I never brought up reasons why someone would lose. All I asked was what if one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by a fighter with a coach that never fought before, would you continue to talk shit about coaches that never fought before? Or would that humble you up? It's really that simple. No need to add anything tangent and irrelevant. Stick to the subject. It's that simple.

So basically you're saying if one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by a fighter with a coach that never fought before, you're still going to talk shit about coaches that never fought before and that won't humble you. Not surprised if that's the case.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

read @Cheap Shot shots post.

I'm lost brother. Perhaps this conversation is going over my head. There are outliers, that prove you don't have to be a fighter to coach high caliber fighters. Angelo Dundee worked with Ali, Ray Leonard, and Foreman among others.

Then you have respected coaches who themselves fought such as Emmanuel Steward.

Then you have coaches who coach way above the level they ever reached. Mayweather shut a guy down at the Badou Jack v Adonis Stevenson championship bout post fight press conference. The guy, who was a coach, questioned why Mayweather didn't have Jack turn up the intensity at certain times to secure the win. Mayweather asked him how many title matches has he fought in?

Someone will always find a way to discredit. That's my take.

Again, perhaps I'm not grasping the conversation.

 

[Cheap Shot]

Since you want to answer someone else's question, at least answer it correctly and not add in a whole additional and irrelevant tangent rant in it. I never brought up reasons why someone would lose. All I asked was what if one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by a fighter with a coach that never fought before, would you continue to talk shit about coaches that never fought before? Or would that humble you up? It's really that simple. No need to add anything tangent and irrelevant. Stick to the subject. It's that simple.

So basically you're saying if one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by a fighter with a coach that never fought before, you're still going to talk shit about coaches that never fought before and that won't humble you. Not surprised if that's the case.

It’s late and I’m tired, so I’ll give you a full response in the morning. Fair warning, Sinister already said essentially everything I would have wanted to say, and he also has a better way with words, so be prepared to be disappointed by my response.

 

[FightGuyOpenMind]

There's a thousand reasons a guy may win or lose a fight that have little to do with the training. Good teachers focus more on the path than on the destination. Once you're out there and a fight has commenced, you're playing with chaos. Chaos doesn't play favorites. I often tell my fighters "this Sport is not about trying to get everything to go your way, it's more about how you respond when nothing is going your way."

My fighter Daijon, in his first match I was standing across the ring from Jeff Mayweather, and I was still virtually unknown at the time. Daijon won, handily, but I doubt that had much effect on Jeff's baseline philosophies. Having fighters lose, and lose badly, that just comes with the territory. We don't forget our viewpoints based on a guy losing a fight unless it's clear it was something missing on our part. Which happens. No one here is suggesting that BECAUSE we fought before, we're perfect.

You coached across from Jeff Mayweather? That's sick.

The head coach at the gym I go to fought Floyd in the ammys, he was ranked number 7 in the country at one point.

I met James Toney in person, and almost lost it. I saw his picture on a gym wall, and asked the coach if he knew James Toney? The gym manager responded by yelling: "Hey James! This kid said he wants to spar you!" James Toney in a red and black lumberjack walks over to us asking "who said they want to fight?"

I almost lost it. I always think it's sick when people meet these guys in person.

 

[kenpeters8]

It’s late and I’m tired, so I’ll give you a full response in the morning. Fair warning, Sinister already said essentially everything I would have wanted to say, and he also has a better way with words, so be prepared to be disappointed by my response.

Here's the original question I posted below. No need to say anything else. It's just a simple question. Not that hard to answer 1 simple question without any additional tangent discussion.

Cheap Shot, let me ask you a "what if" question. Just curious how would you feel IF one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by another fighter with a coach that never fought before? Would you continue to talk shit about coaches that never fought before? Or would that humble you up on this subject? Just wondering. Cause I personal know one shit talker that used to fight pro and he was talking mad shit about his opponent before the fight, telling him he would knock his ass out just cause he train with former world champion coaches and his opponent's coach never fought before. That shit talker end up getting knocked the fuck out by his opponent that has a coach who never fought before. It was pretty hilarious.

 

[shincheckin]

@kenpeters8

this thread is going around in circles

all of the below is generally speaking:

coaching isnt fighting, fighting isnt coaching.

great fighters make great coaches, great fighters make poor coaches.

poor fighters make great coaches, poor fighter make poor coaches.

can a coach that never fought be a good coach or even a great coach, yes, and its been done, however generally speaking a coach with at least some experience is preferred as the good coaches with zero experience are the exception to the rule.

 

[kenpeters8]

@kenpeters8

this thread is going around in circles

all of the below is generally speaking:

coaching isnt fighting, fighting isnt coaching.

great fighters make great coaches, great fighters make poor coaches.

poor fighters make great coaches, poor fighter make poor coaches.

can a coach that never fought be a good coach or even a great coach, yes, and its been done, however generally speaking a coach with at least some experience is preferred as the good coaches with zero experience are the exception to the rule.

Agree with everything you said. It's just pretty funny that it's always coaches that fought before would get super upset and offended when coaches that never fought before happen to coach good fighters. And they'll get super pissed off whenever one of their fighters get knocked out by a fighter with a coach that never fought before.

I think it's silly and immature to get upset. Instead of getting upset, maybe those coaches that fought before can learn a lot from coaches that never fought before.

 

[j123]

As for grappling vs standup, sorry but there is no comparisons.You cannot compare the: I got to submit this guy vs I got to KO this guy. Every move your opponent makes is to hurt you. He wants to hurt your body so much, than you cannot stand up... And on your side, you have to get pass through that pain and fear, and continue to fight. And the only way to stop you is to make your brain hit your skull and see black (thats racist)

100%. One is to put you in a bad spot so you'll give up, the other is to inflict brain damage or so much pain that they'll be forced to give up

 

[Vatenkeist]

@Uopap
"And you sound like someone with a scary low IQ."

Dumbest trash talk I ever heard.

 

[Sinister]

Since you want to answer someone else's question, at least answer it correctly and not add in a whole additional and irrelevant tangent rant in it. I never brought up reasons why someone would lose. All I asked was what if one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by a fighter with a coach that never fought before, would you continue to talk shit about coaches that never fought before? Or would that humble you up? It's really that simple. No need to add anything tangent and irrelevant. Stick to the subject. It's that simple.

So basically you're saying if one of your fighters got knocked the fuck out by a fighter with a coach that never fought before, you're still going to talk shit about coaches that never fought before and that won't humble you. Not surprised if that's the case.

1) this is a public forum, if you want a private conversation with Cheap Shot then do so using the private messaging feature. Otherwise if you post your question publicly, even addressing someone by name, the nature of being public it's bound to be addressed by more than one person.

2) you don't get to tell me how I need to answer, either. What I added was relevant based on how you formed the question. You asked a loaded question, I added what I did because it's a loaded question. You're insinuating a very specific reason for the thing you're asking about happening without directly saying it.

3) I wasn't "talking shit." At this point the one doing that is you. You're responding with an unnecessary amount of angst and then attempting to make it seem like it's other people. You're upset. You have an axe to grind, apparently. And this is causing you to not realize that I was kind of validating your point because I was stating that at one point I WAS considered a nobody trainer without sufficient experience who garnered a victory against a very well-established trainer and I was relating how that unfolded. Your response is to get pissy.

4) if your question is "if you have a fighter get knocked the fuck out by another fighter whose trainer has NO competition experience but he's better and smarter than you, are you gonna concede that trainers with no experience fighting whatsoever can be better and smarter than you?" Then just cut all the smoke and mirrors and ask that shit directly. Because that's what you're asking, but Cheap Shot already noted it's not beyond the scope of possibility, but that it's extremely rare.

Angelo Dundee never fought competitively, and yet while under his flag Ali beat two of Eddie Futch's best fighters, more than once. It has happened in History, but does that negate that it's better for a trainer to know what fighting feels like? No. Does boxing have gaping holes where practically anyone can be a coach and it's actually not that good of a thing? Yes. Are there a lot of fraudsters out there responsible for kids ' well-being who don't have any idea what they're doing? Absolutely.

If you consider that "talking shit" and it make you that pissy, you'll just have to be pissy about it. We often have to confront that shit in person.

 

[Sinister]

You coached across from Jeff Mayweather? That's sick.

The head coach at the gym I go to fought Floyd in the ammys, he was ranked number 7 in the country at one point.

I met James Toney in person, and almost lost it. I saw his picture on a gym wall, and asked the coach if he knew James Toney? The gym manager responded by yelling: "Hey James! This kid said he wants to spar you!" James Toney in a red and black lumberjack walks over to us asking "who said they want to fight?"

I almost lost it. I always think it's sick when people meet these guys in person.

It was very surreal to realize that's what's was happening. But you do get used to it. At this point I've stood across from so many guys I watched box when I was a kid it's ridiculous. Fernando Vargas got interviewed bringing his Pro to spar one of my guys a while back. I have a small cameo:

 

[kenpeters8]

1) this is a public forum, if you want a private conversation with Cheap Shot then do so using the private messaging feature. Otherwise if you post your question publicly, even addressing someone by name, the nature of being public it's bound to be addressed by more than one person.

2) you don't get to tell me how I need to answer, either. What I added was relevant based on how you formed the question. You asked a loaded question, I added what I did because it's a loaded question. You're insinuating a very specific reason for the thing you're asking about happening without directly saying it.

3) I wasn't "talking shit." At this point the one doing that is you. You're responding with an unnecessary amount of angst and then attempting to make it seem like it's other people. You're upset. You have an axe to grind, apparently. And this is causing you to not realize that I was kind of validating your point because I was stating that at one point I WAS considered a nobody trainer without sufficient experience who garnered a victory against a very well-established trainer and I was relating how that unfolded. Your response is to get pissy.

4) if your question is "if you have a fighter get knocked the fuck out by another fighter whose trainer has NO competition experience but he's better and smarter than you, are you gonna concede that trainers with no experience fighting whatsoever can be better and smarter than you?" Then just cut all the smoke and mirrors and ask that shit directly. Because that's what you're asking, but Cheap Shot already noted it's not beyond the scope of possibility, but that it's extremely rare.

Angelo Dundee never fought competitively, and yet while under his flag Ali beat two of Eddie Futch's best fighters, more than once. It has happened in History, but does that negate that it's better for a trainer to know what fighting feels like? No. Does boxing have gaping holes where practically anyone can be a coach and it's actually not that good of a thing? Yes. Are there a lot of fraudsters out there responsible for kids ' well-being who don't have any idea what they're doing? Absolutely.

If you consider that "talking shit" and it make you that pissy, you'll just have to be pissy about it. We often have to confront that shit in person.

I think you need to relax and chill. Nobody is mad or pissy but you. Relax. =)

 

[kenpeters8]

I've already said this before, I'm okay with coaches that never fought before, and coaches that fought before are definitely cool. I'm neutral on this subject. I just find it funny how coaches that fought before would get super offended and pissed off whenever they see coaches that never fought before are training good fighters. And those coaches that fought before that are offended and pissed off, usually they're a bunch of nobodies with no more than 5 pro fights themselves. It's obviously insecurity issues. I know plenty of former world champion fighters that are coaches, and they're okay with coaches that never fought before that are training good fighters. That shows they're humble and not insecured.