When does white privilege kick in?

[ndwolfwood]

Some days for me it's hard to exercise my privilege. But then I put on my Dockers and put a smile on the old face and set off on my day.

 

[dontsnitch]

I think this conversation is more about emphasis than facts. What I mean is that the facts are not being contested, it's the when and why that's being scrutinized.

1. White people do better than black people on average, but what I've seen is this fact often used as a pejorative- the privilege is almost always framed as being illicit and/or it's used negatively.

2. I've also seen it used as a fallacy in arguments, something along the lines of 'you can't understand the premise because of your wp (skin color)' or some variation of that.

3. Lastly, I've seen it used as a power-move, where someone will attempt to place someone in a given hierarchy based on their perceived level of privilege.

Given that the white privilege crowd continually speaks about respect and being sensitive about race, it's difficult not to see some hypocrisy, especially as the term is commonly used. So while I understand that the statistic is true, the way it's often used is not intellectually honest, and beyond that, I just don't see a good reason to continually bring it up; It's not unlike the '16% commit over 50% of the crime' crowd who continually interject that at odd times- it's gets to be suspicious.

 

[Leagon]

I think this conversation is more about emphasis than facts. What I mean is that the facts are not being contested, it's the when and why that's being scrutinized.

1. White people do better than black people on average, but what I've seen is this fact often used as a pejorative- the privilege is almost always framed as being illicit and/or it's used negatively.

2. I've also seen it used as a fallacy in arguments, something along the lines of 'you can't understand the premise because of your wp (skin color)' or some variation of that.

3. Lastly, I've seen it used as a power-move, where someone will attempt to place someone in a given hierarchy based on their perceived level of privilege.

Given that the white privilege crowd continually speaks about respect and being sensitive about race, it's difficult not to see some hypocrisy, especially as the term is commonly used. So while I understand that the statistic is true, the way it's often used is not intellectually honest, and beyond that, I just don't see a good reason to continually bring it up; It's not unlike the '16% commit over 50% of the crime' crowd who continually interject that at odd times- it's gets to be suspicious.

I think the way it's used is a bit of a chicken/egg thing. Do minorities bring up this statistic defensively because white people often look down on minorities and blame their lack of achievement on some inherent racial shortcoming? Or do they bring it up aggressively, as a way to distract from their potential shortcomings by shaming white people?

I think the idea of privilege is generally used on the extremes. As in, a moderate black person talking to a moderate white person won't bring it up and vice versa. But once an extremist shows up on either side, it becomes an offensive or defensive tactic.

 

[Lord Commander Palis]

Do you have a learning disability? I'm not trolling. Lots of people do, especially men, so it makes sense that some Sherdoggers would. Just read slower in the future.

Damn you are way too upset over this.

 

[dontsnitch]

I think the way it's used a bit of a chicken/egg thing. Do minorities bring up this statistic defensively because white people often look down on minorities and blame their lack of achievement on some inherent racial shortcoming? Or do they bring it up aggressively, as a way to distract from their potential shortcomings by shaming white people?

I think the idea of privilege is generally used on the extremes. As in, a moderate black person talking to a moderate white person won't bring it up and vice versa. But once an extremist shows up on either side, it becomes an offensive or defensive tactic.

While I agree that it's sometimes used defensively, I don't think this is the most common use, but more importantly, I think it's probably best to take each argument as it comes. If someone uses a fallacy to critique someone's lack of achievement, just address it right there and then instead of adding other fallacies on top.

 

[Leagon]

While I agree that it's sometimes used defensively, I don't think this is the most common use, but more importantly, I think it's probably best to take each argument as it comes. If someone uses a fallacy to critique someone's lack of achievement, just address it right there and then instead of adding other fallacies on top.

I agree that what you've suggested is the better approach. I disagree that its most common use isn't defensive. I think it is almost always defensive against a perceived threat. While I think the young college students tend to freak out and just scream "white privilege" when they see the threat, I think older, more measured minorities are constantly explaining it, but they use less inflamatory language. Even on this board, about 70% of my posts are using euphemisms for "white privilege" to explain to another poster why black people are also human. In real life, it's less frequent, but you'd be surprised.

For the record, the other 30% of my posts are spent defending Muslims.

 

[dontsnitch]

I agree that what you've suggested is the better approach. I disagree that its most common use isn't defensive. I think it is almost always defensive against a perceived threat. While I think the young college students tend to freak out and just scream "white privilege" when they see the threat, I think older, more measured minorities are constantly explaining it, but they use less inflamatory language. Even on this board, about 70% of my posts are using euphemisms for "white privilege" to explain to another poster why black people are also human. In real life, it's less frequent, but you'd be surprised.

For the record, the other 30% of my posts are spent defending Muslims.

It's difficult to factually know how often an argument is used, I guess it depends on which circles you run in, I think we can agree to disagree here. I could be wrong, it just doesn't feel like it from my perspective and I respect you likely feel the same.

I like how you worded the threat as being perceived, I agree with this. I think many people do see a threat, I just believe that this generation too often sees threats where there are none. That's not to say that there are no threats.

I recommend ignoring posters who you need to have such arguments with, that may also explain the different "circles" we run in, or the type of arguments we see, when I see something like that I block them.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Why are Asians able to overcome this and become the highest group per capita in income along with education. You never hear about Asian "privilege" because it doesn't exist. Asians place education very high on their priority list. Hell, Japanese Americans were discriminated against big time during world war 2. White privilege is just an excuse to blame for your own shortcomings. Look at Asians compared to African Americans, both very different cultures that value different things. So the question is, why are Asians Americans able to overcome this but African Americans/Hispanics aren't?

Is that accurate though?

Much of the infrastructure the world over has been built decades ago by very poor migrant Chinese workers. They are dispersed all through the caribbean and N.America and lived in relatively poorer areas (various China towns).

Or are you referring to the mostly latter stages of typically very wealthy, upper class Chinese that are buying their way into countries and taking over the educational institutions?

 

[Leagon]

It's difficult to factually know how often an argument is used, I guess it depends on which circles you run in, I think we can agree to disagree here. I could be wrong, it just doesn't feel like it from my perspective and I respect you likely feel the same.

I like how you worded the threat as being perceived, I agree with this. I think many people do see a threat, I just believe that this generation too often sees threats where there are none. That's not to say that there are no threats.

I recommend ignoring posters who you need to have such arguments with, that may also explain the different "circles" we run in, or the type of arguments we see, when I see something like that I block them.

Yeah, I can agree to disagree on the first point.

And I agree that this generation has an oversensitive threat perception. However, I think it makes sense, in terms of what battle must be currently fought to reach racial equality. Legal equality has basically been achieved. Social equality has too, to a large extent. And yet we still see very different treatment of minorities, especially black and hispanic ones. This is where the idea that words are violence comes in. I disagree with it on a practical level, but it makes philosophical sense. As a kid, I refused to dress like other black kids because I knew that the existing stereotypes around young black men who dressed a certain way could literally get me killed. When there are stereotypes surrounding one's identity that can be extremely destructive, one has to be very careful about giving such stereotypes, in any form, any sort of room to breathe.

For a more relatable example, if a white man works in an office and a female co-worker of his describes him as a creeper. It's a harmless word and she probably doesn't mean much by it, but given the climate we're in, that kind of shit is dangerous. It only takes a short game of telephone to have him investigated or humiliated.

Again, I don't have the same hair trigger this younger generation does, nor can I stomach their tiresome methods, but I think it is a reasonable battle to fight.

PS. I ignore any poster I don't believe to be sincere. But when someone is sincerely ignorant, I try to do what I can to make that their ignorance doesn't cause any suffering when they leave Sherdog.

 

[unimackpass]

Who has more privilege, a white kid growing up in a trailer park with divorced mom working two jobs or a Asian kid with the opposite and being prepared to kick ass in collage?

 

[dontsnitch]

Yeah, I can agree to disagree on the first point.

And I agree that this generation has an oversensitive threat perception. However, I think it makes sense, in terms of what battle must be currently fought to reach racial equality. Legal equality has basically been achieved. Social equality has too, to a large extent. And yet we still see very different treatment of minorities, especially black and hispanic ones. This is where the idea that words are violence comes in. I disagree with it on a practical level, but it makes philosophical sense. As a kid, I refused to dress like other black kids because I knew that the existing stereotypes around young black men who dressed a certain way could literally get me killed. When there are stereotypes surrounding one's identity that can be extremely destructive, one has to be very careful about giving such stereotypes, in any form, any sort of room to breathe.

For a more relatable example, if a white man works in an office and a female co-worker of his describes him as a creeper. It's a harmless word and she probably doesn't mean much by it, but given the climate we're in, that kind of shit is dangerous. It only takes a short game of telephone to have him investigated or humiliated.

Again, I don't have the same hair trigger this younger generation does, nor can I stomach their tiresome methods, but I think it is a reasonable battle to fight.

PS. I ignore any poster I don't believe to be sincere. But when someone is sincerely ignorant, I try to do what I can to make that their ignorance doesn't cause any suffering when they leave Sherdog.

I think it's difficult to make and defend claims about exact degrees of equality that still needs to be achieved unless there are explicit metrics set, but I respect that things are not perfect and that your personal experiences are living proof of that, I have no intention of denying the history of slavery in the US.

So I'm not saying there is not a conversation to be had, I acknowledge there are legitimate grievances, but I think that generally speaking, the people who use the wp argument are not using it in good faith because when it comes down to it, you can't judge any man by the color of his skin alone, and it's a popular argument on elite college campuses where everyone is extremely privileged to begin with.

And I need to emphasize this, as I think this is where the conversation tends to go wrong: this does not mean that some college kid on campus using wp inappropriately is more important than the historical mistreatment of minorities. That's absurd on it's face but it's a popular strawman. That doesn't make the use of wp appropriate either, and it's just as often used as a pejorative and it shouldn't be controversial to simply call that out without having to reject that racism exists.

At the end of the day I believe one should be able to reject the negative uses of wp while not discarding the honest truths behind the idea.

 

[Leagon]

I think it's difficult to make and defend claims about exact degrees of equality that still needs to be achieved unless there are explicit metrics set, but I respect that things are not perfect and that your personal experiences are living proof of that, I have no intention of denying the history of slavery in the US.

So I'm not saying there is not a conversation to be had, I acknowledge there are legitimate grievances, but I think that generally speaking, the people who use the wp argument are not using it in good faith because when it comes down to it, you can't judge any man by the color of his skin alone, and it's a popular argument on elite college campuses where everyone is extremely privileged to begin with.

And I need to emphasize this, as I think this is where the conversation tends to go wrong: this does not mean that some college kid on campus using wp inappropriately is more important than the historical mistreatment of minorities. That's absurd on it's face but it's a popular strawman. That doesn't make the use of wp appropriate either, and it's just as often used as a pejorative and it shouldn't be controversial to simply call that out without having to reject that racism exists.

At the end of the day I believe one should be able to reject the negative uses of wp while not discarding the honest truths behind the idea.

I agree with this. I've never said wp in real life to a white person, and I always correct other minorities who tell me I'm underprivileged--I have a supportive family, an education, Amerocan citizenship, all my limbs, a sound mind, etc.

I think it can be very difficult for a white person to fairly defend whiteness without being perceived as racist. This is unfortunate, but I get it. That's why I think it's important for minorities to engage other minorities in these debates. In the same way that it's important for women to engage other women on feminism. The optics are just easier to handle for most people.

 

[dontsnitch]

I agree with this. I've never said wp in real life to a white person, and I always correct other minorities who tell me I'm underprivileged--I have a supportive family, an education, Amerocan citizenship, all my limbs, a sound mind, etc.

I think it can be very difficult for a white person to fairly defend whiteness without being perceived as racist. This is unfortunate, but I get it. That's why I think it's important for minorities to engage other minorities in these debates. In the same way that it's important for women to engage other women on feminism. The optics are just easier to handle for most people.

I think we are on the same page even if we vary in degrees.

Just out of curiosity and so I understand you right, would my perspective be different to you depending on if I'm white or not? Also, I wouldn't fly off the handle or think less of you either way, just find that part interesting.

 

[unimackpass]

Yeah, I can agree to disagree on the first point.

And I agree that this generation has an oversensitive threat perception. However, I think it makes sense, in terms of what battle must be currently fought to reach racial equality. Legal equality has basically been achieved. Social equality has too, to a large extent. And yet we still see very different treatment of minorities, especially black and hispanic ones. This is where the idea that words are violence comes in. I disagree with it on a practical level, but it makes philosophical sense. As a kid, I refused to dress like other black kids because I knew that the existing stereotypes around young black men who dressed a certain way could literally get me killed. When there are stereotypes surrounding one's identity that can be extremely destructive, one has to be very careful about giving such stereotypes, in any form, any sort of room to breathe.

For a more relatable example, if a white man works in an office and a female co-worker of his describes him as a creeper. It's a harmless word and she probably doesn't mean much by it, but given the climate we're in, that kind of shit is dangerous. It only takes a short game of telephone to have him investigated or humiliated.

Again, I don't have the same hair trigger this younger generation does, nor can I stomach their tiresome methods, but I think it is a reasonable battle to fight.

PS. I ignore any poster I don't believe to be sincere. But when someone is sincerely ignorant, I try to do what I can to make that their ignorance doesn't cause any suffering when they leave Sherdog.

I appreciate you taking your time to write this, very reasonable and engaging.
The problem is a lot of this stuff is weaponized by people that only want to make political points and actually wouldn't be involved otherwise .
Feel like I listened to a actual human being and I believe what you said is true.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Who has more privilege, a white kid growing up in a trailer park with divorced mom working two jobs or a Asian kid with the opposite and being prepared to kick ass in collage?

In all fairness, we kick ass in everything.

jus sayin.

and fu*k off to anyone who makes bad driving or small dick jokes.

 

[76Knockout]

Who has more privilege, a white kid growing up in a trailer park with divorced mom working two jobs or a Asian kid with the opposite and being prepared to kick ass in collage?

I’m curious what this woman’s answer would be to that question.

 

[Leagon]

I think we are on the same page even if we vary in degrees.

Just out of curiosity and so I understand you right, would my perspective be different to you depending on if I'm white or not? Also, I wouldn't fly off the handle or think less of you either way, just find that part interesting.

Depends on the issue. I think it's like when women say men can't understand the pain of childbirth. On the one hand, men can lose limbs and have their spines crushed on car accidents or war or all kinds of shit. Of course we can understand the pain of childbirth. At the same time, I imagine the pain of childbirth is a mix of physical pain, the realization that your body is being irreparably altered, the fear that one may not be strong enough to bring life into existence and you'll let everyone down, the terror that the cigarettes you smoked when you were in your teens may somehow fuck up this child or that your spouse will never want to have sex with you again or that you've actually made a terrible mistake and are unfit to be a parent.

I dunno if any of that is true, and even if it is, that exact cocktail may be something men can also experience, but I feel like I just have to take their word for it that it is a unique experience.

Sorry for the rambling answer, but I hope it makes sense. I tend to believe that all groups have some unique experiences that others can never understand the nuances of (I've lived as a Westerner in Asia, but I've never been white in Asia--that's got to come with its own experiences), but I constantly wonder how true that is an what the implications amwould be if it is.

 

[76Knockout]

Its ok to be white.

That might be the biggest thing to take away from this thread.

My parents (didn't know my dad long) were hippies for the most part. The one most important thing they taught me was be decent to others, and they will be decent in return. There wasn't anything specific about race, just be decent to other humans.

I wasn't raised by racists, I'm not myself, so I have nothing apologize for.

And I look at PEOPLE on an individual basis, I don't see all blacks as "victims" I treat them as individual humans with different circumstances and beliefs.

 

[dontsnitch]

Depends on the issue. I think it's like when women say men can't understand the pain of childbirth. On the one hand, men can lose limbs and have their spines crushed on car accidents or war or all kinds of shit. Of course we can understand the pain of childbirth. At the same time, I imagine the pain of childbirth is a mix of physical pain, the realization that your body is being irreparably altered, the fear that one may not be strong enough to bring life into existence and you'll let everyone down, the terror that the cigarettes you smoked when you were in your teens may somehow fuck up this child or that your spouse will never want to have sex with you again or that you've actually made a terrible mistake and are unfit to be a parent.

I dunno if any of that is true, and even if it is, that exact cocktail may be something men can also experience, but I feel like I just have to take their word for it that it is a unique experience.

Sorry for the rambling answer, but I hope it makes sense. I tend to believe that all groups have some unique experiences that others can never understand the nuances of (I've lived as a Westerner in Asia, but I've never been white in Asia--that's got to come with its own experiences), but I constantly wonder how true that is an what the implications amwould be if it is.

I get what you're saying.

I'll never be able to perfectly relate to you, but I understand, you could say this was an important debate to engage in if you catch my meaning, I like to be discrete.

 

[dontsnitch]

Its ok to be white.

That might be the biggest thing to take away from this thread.

My parents (didn't know my dad long) were hippies for the most part. The one most important thing they taught me was be decent to others, and they will be decent in return. There wasn't anything specific about race, just be decent to other humans.

I wasn't raised by racists, I'm not myself, so I have nothing apologize for.

And I look at PEOPLE on an individual basis, I don't see all blacks as "victims" I treat them as individual humans with different circumstances and beliefs.

You should have led with this post, your thread may have been better received.