Which is more realistic? Shotokan or Kyokushin?

[Azam]

Not exactly true. Kyokushin does "have punches to the face" -- they're just not allowed in the sparring/competition rules.

So, Kyokushinkai does teach defense against head punches, and attacking the head yourself, it's just not done in sparring.

Are bad habits still created because of the sparring without punches to the face? Yes. But I still think it's worth mentioning the style hasn't completely forgotten that punches to the head exist.

Despite the non-existent head movement and crappy punch defense of most Kyokushinkai karateka, the style teaches you to fight. It stresses persisting, never giving up, enduring, and returning fire yourself. Most of the karateka who continue practicing Kyokushin are tough. That's a quality that's hard to find in a lot of other places. I'd put money on an average Kyokushin guy over the average Krav Maga/Wado ryu/Shotokan/JJJ practicioner any day, simply because of the spirit and toughness that's the foundation of the style.

Not an attack on your style of Shotokan - I have no idea how you guys train. When I say Shotokan, I'm talking about the guys I've seen.

From personal experience while Kyokushin does have punches to the face - they're never really applied in a sparring scenario. I mean when I was doing KK - I can only recall once in like 2 years where we actually applied it in a drilling scenario otherwise it was just pure knockdown sparring. I think a lot of KK guys (the one's I've come across) don't really realise the big holes KK have and are almost elitist about it - which is a shame because boxing would sure up the holes.

Kyokushin doesn't really teach defense against head punches - in fact the kind of defense it teaches against head punches are based on really outdated nonsensical inefficient defenses that actually don't really work in sparring. You don't learn how to slip, weave, bob or even parry properly tbh. You learn outdated shotokan esque blocks that don't really work in sparring at least the way they are taught in KK - it's almost as though Oyama had no idea about the blocks he was adding to the curriculum & just added them in because he had learnt them.

It's one of the main reasons I left KK & switched to Kudo because the bad habits were as clear as day from my first Kudo sparring session - this is also considering that I don't fight at a close range like most KK guys do - so I'd imagine they'd even have more difficulties especially the one's who've been sparring knockdown longer than I have (which is not that long compared to most KK guys).

What Kyokushin does is teaches & develops the mentality & physical conditioning you need to fight. But I'd stress that most martial arts styles will teach you these things. The pros to Kyokushin are mainly the mentality & body conditioning which imho it does better than any other style. I'd argue though that KK takes body conditioning too far - because it means shit all when you get clocked in the face.

Personally I'd say that if you had two guys - one from shotokan & Kyokushin - I'd put my money on the KK guy. But if you had two guys - one from shotokan & Kyokushin and both of them competed full contact - my money would be on the shotokan guy. Shotokan (JKA and others like it) do a better job of teaching fundamentals & striking technique than Kyokushin (at least in terms of understanding range, distance, timing etc) - when it comes to the art of kicking/punching (including head punches). It's why we see more success with shotokan based (and similar styles) strikers in MMA than those with Kyokushin bases.

I think the reverse can be said for kickboxing though because the ranges suit kyokushin more so than shotokan based styles.

in kickboxing, kyokushin guys reign supreme. I dont think there is awhole lot to the punching defense with those big gloves on. In mma I think its a toss up.

Then you would be mistaken. There is, in fact, a whole lot to the punching defense even with big gloves. It's a common misconception that you can just turtle up and be safe, no skill involved. Not the case.

There is some means of defense - it's not the same kind of defense with the smaller gloves. If you watch a lot of KK guys in kickboxing like Filho, Hug etc - most of them have very horrid defense - they turtle up a lot and they kind of get away with it. I don't think they'd get away with it as much with smaller gloves like in mma. A good case in point was the Tomahawk vs Pornsanae CMT fight which kind of showcased the defensive issues that big gloves can have on the way you fight. Pornsanae tried to turtle up & cover up but got obliterated - it was only his vast experience & skill that got him to the end plus he's a bad-ass.

That said I don't think good boxers have the same issues with big gloves because there fundamentals are on point (which transfers to smaller gloves).

There is of course some skill involved but the bigger gloves sometimes act as cushions to absorb shots you wouldn't otherwise be able to do with the 4oz gloves. Hell there is even a heck of a difference between 8oz & 4oz. It's partially why I hate 16oz gloves and why I prefer sparring lighter but with 4oz to 7oz mma gloves. I think the smaller gloves force you to be more proactive with defending yourself properly. I mean sure you can turtle up but you're more than likely going to eat something.

 

[spacetime]

The advantage of Knockdown fighting is that it's full contact and you can train it for the rest of your life without having to worry too much about brain damage. Any fight sport where you regularly spar with head punches at 50% contact force or more will eventually lead to some kind of brain damage (boxing, mma, etc.).

I am not sure I follow you here. Why wouldn't full force (or even 70% force) kicks to the head be as detrimental to ones health? Kicks are much harder than punches..

 

[spacetime]

From personal experience while Kyokushin does have punches to the face - they're never really applied in a sparring scenario. I mean when I was doing KK - I can only recall once in like 2 years where we actually applied it in a drilling scenario otherwise it was just pure knockdown sparring. I think a lot of KK guys (the one's I've come across) don't really realise the big holes KK have and are almost elitist about it - which is a shame because boxing would sure up the holes.

Kyokushin doesn't really teach defense against head punches - in fact the kind of defense it teaches against head punches are based on really outdated nonsensical inefficient defenses that actually don't really work in sparring. You don't learn how to slip, weave, bob or even parry properly tbh. You learn outdated shotokan esque blocks that don't really work in sparring at least the way they are taught in KK - it's almost as though Oyama had no idea about the blocks he was adding to the curriculum & just added them in because he had learnt them.

It's one of the main reasons I left KK & switched to Kudo because the bad habits were as clear as day from my first Kudo sparring session - this is also considering that I don't fight at a close range like most KK guys do - so I'd imagine they'd even have more difficulties especially the one's who've been sparring knockdown longer than I have (which is not that long compared to most KK guys).

What Kyokushin does is teaches & develops the mentality & physical conditioning you need to fight. But I'd stress that most martial arts styles will teach you these things. The pros to Kyokushin are mainly the mentality & body conditioning which imho it does better than any other style. I'd argue though that KK takes body conditioning too far - because it means shit all when you get clocked in the face.

Personally I'd say that if you had two guys - one from shotokan & Kyokushin - I'd put my money on the KK guy. But if you had two guys - one from shotokan & Kyokushin and both of them competed full contact - my money would be on the shotokan guy. Shotokan (JKA and others like it) do a better job of teaching fundamentals & striking technique than Kyokushin (at least in terms of understanding range, distance, timing etc) - when it comes to the art of kicking/punching (including head punches). It's why we see more success with shotokan based (and similar styles) strikers in MMA than those with Kyokushin bases.

I think the reverse can be said for kickboxing though because the ranges suit kyokushin more so than shotokan based styles.










There is some means of defense - it's not the same kind of defense with the smaller gloves. If you watch a lot of KK guys in kickboxing like Filho, Hug etc - most of them have very horrid defense - they turtle up a lot and they kind of get away with it. I don't think they'd get away with it as much with smaller gloves like in mma. A good case in point was the Tomahawk vs Pornsanae CMT fight which kind of showcased the defensive issues that big gloves can have on the way you fight. Pornsanae tried to turtle up & cover up but got obliterated - it was only his vast experience & skill that got him to the end plus he's a bad-ass.

That said I don't think good boxers have the same issues with big gloves because there fundamentals are on point (which transfers to smaller gloves).

There is of course some skill involved but the bigger gloves sometimes act as cushions to absorb shots you wouldn't otherwise be able to do with the 4oz gloves. Hell there is even a heck of a difference between 8oz & 4oz. It's partially why I hate 16oz gloves and why I prefer sparring lighter but with 4oz to 7oz mma gloves. I think the smaller gloves force you to be more proactive with defending yourself properly. I mean sure you can turtle up but you're more than likely going to eat something.

But Shotokan doesn't teach boxing defense either, so how could it possibly better than Shotokan?

 

[Tayski]

I am not sure I follow you here. Why wouldn't full force kicks to the head be as detrimental to ones health? Kicks are much harder than punches..

Because they very simply don't happen that often. Yes you might get kicked in the head here and there, but if you compare that to the number of punches you'll be hit with in let's say boxing or kickboxing, it's basically very rare.
I trained in Kyokushin for a few years and even competed in Knockdown, and only ever received one solid kick to the head.

 

[spacetime]

Because they very simply don't happen that often. Yes you might get kicked in the head here and there, but if you compare that to the number of punches you'll be hit with in let's say boxing or kickboxing, it's basically very rare.
I trained in Kyokushin for a few years and even competed in Knockdown, and only ever received one solid kick to the head.

So KK fighting is decided like 90-99% times with punches to the stomatch?

 

[Tayski]

So KK fighting is decided like 90-99% times with punches to the stomatch?

Your trolling is so bad. How do you even make that conclusion from what I just said?
You do realise that you can also kick and knee to the body and legs?
You will of course try and kick to the head but it doesn't mean you will be able to.

 

[spacetime]

Your trolling is so bad. How do you even make that conclusion from what I just said?
You do realise that you can also kick and knee to the body and legs?
You will of course try and kick to the head but it doesn't mean you will be able to.

I guess because Kyokushinkais are usually close-range, full facing, meaning that the only kick available is either a front kick to the body, apart from the head kicks(which you claim are rare). And front kick Ko's to the body are fairly rare(never seen one..) Yes knees to of course..

 

[Tayski]

I guess because Kyokushinkais are usually close-range, full facing, meaning that the only kick available is either a front kick to the body, apart from the head kicks(which you claim are rare). And front kick Ko's to the body are fairly rare(never sen one..) Yes knees to of course..

you list punches, front kicks and knees but you forget:

leg kicks to the inside and outisde of the leg (gedan geri)


circular kicks to the body (chudan mawashi geri)


all the spinning kicks (ushiro mawashi geri, etc.)

 

[spacetime]

Even if Kyokushin had face punches in their main competitions it's still woefully inept at boxing defence, which only boxing can teach properly. I don't think it would matter that much against someone who boxes if they punch to head in competition or not....

 

[spacetime]

all the spinning kicks (ushiro mawashi geri, etc.)

They don't have any guard to speak of... which is why they get kicked in the head.