Which of our ancestors made the most sturdy, and effective battle ready swords

Well, I don’t know about consensus, but if historical evidence in a free market of ideas is any proof, then certainly, yes. Rapiers became the default dueling weapon and sidearm for people who expected to engage in sword fights and superseded the longsword. If the rapier weren’t a better dueling weapon, people would have had an incentive to stick with the longsword.

To come at this from another angle in a context where swordsmanship had already largely started to ossify and stagnate due to enforced isolation and cultural conservatism, let’s take a look at the radical (in Japan) ideas of Musashi Miyamoto, Japan’s single most famous and successful duelist.

Musashi is famous for winning a lot of duels and for developing his two sword style. Musashi may have been influenced by Portuguese traders of the era, which was well into the heavy rapier and dagger era. Or it’s possible that he could have arrived at the this by dint of his own particular genius. Either are certainly possible. What is known is that he definitely did use and advocated the use and practice of two swords, both for simultaneous offense/defense.

The first thing to note here is that while not identical, the Japanese katana and European longsword (both broad categories) are very similar in weight and usage to the each other in the general sense. The katana is shorter and single edged, but for the most part, the techniques bear striking resemblances.

Here is what a lot of people miss about Musashi and the Niten-Ichi (two swords as one) school. The primary purpose of training with two swords, one in each hand is not to to develop the competency of fighting with two swords at once. The primary purpose of practicing with one sword in each hand is to develop the competency of fighting with the long sword (katana) one handed. Musashi states this explicitly and as very, very clear on this point. In fact, this is the very first point he makes in his first treatise on swordsmanship.

This bears repeating. Musashi - the single most venerated and accomplished duelist in recorded Japanese samurai history - thinks the superior method of utilization of a long sword is to wield it with one hand.

So in a way, even Musashi is saying that a rapier is superior to a longsword.

I think if Musashi were living in a more liberal minded society open to new ideas and methods, such as that of Europe at the time instead of the rapidly petrifying and fossilizing isolationist conservatism of Japan, then Japanese swordsmanship would have developed pretty much along the same lines they did in the West. As it were, different Japanese schools were experimenting with longer swords and others would become lighter and faster, which would have made one handed use that much easier before cultural fundamentalism put a halt to all of that on the Japanese isles.

Very cool post, thanks.

I don't know anything about swordfighting; still I am very surprised.

Intuitively, it seems to me that a longsword, due to the fact that two hands control the handle, can deliver faster and more powerful cuts, and is also more stable.

If I look at the guys in the following well-known longsword vid, I fail to see how any sword wielded with only one hand could match up (reach aspect aside) against the speed, stability and precision of the longsword. I mean of course reach is important but it seems to me that the longsword is superior in all other aspects.



EDIT : I found the following video about a rapier vs longsword.

I guess I underestimated the thrusting quality of the rapier and how hard it is for the longsword fighter to get passed the rapier. I also didn't realise just how long the rapier actually is.



Maybe rapier + dagger is the optimal solution ? Thrust ad nauseam and keep the longsword at bay. If ever the fight gets closer (where the longsword gets the advantage) just rush in and dagger grapple ?
 
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Intuitively, it seems to me that a longsword, due to the fact that two hands control the handle, can deliver faster and more powerful cuts, and is also more stable.

If I look at the guys in the following well-known longsword vid, I fail to see how any sword wielded with only one hand could match up (reach aspect aside) against the speed, stability and precision of the longsword. I mean of course reach is important but it seems to me that the longsword is superior in all other aspects.



EDIT : I found the following video about a rapier vs longsword.

I guess I underestimated the thrusting quality of the rapier and how hard it is for the longsword fighter to get passed the rapier. I also didn't realise just how long the rapier actually is.



Maybe rapier + dagger is the optimal solution ? Thrust ad nauseam and keep the longsword at bay. If ever the fight gets closer (where the longsword gets the advantage) just rush in and dagger grapple ?


The longsword is much, much slower. It also the nature of the thrust that it is much, much harder to see coming, judge distance to and avoid than a cut.

Watching those videos makes me appreciate how much more sophisticated and developed kendo training is compared to HEMA guys. With few exceptions, they often look sloppy, uncentered, unbalanced and uncoordinated.

Neither of these guys attack the wrist and hands much at all, which should be one of the primary targets of the rapierist against a longsword.

Neither are good at attacking on the withdrawal.

Both would benefit a lot from kendo IMO, but you'll never see these guys acknowledge that.
 
^^^^^^

How would one best go about learning the rapier ?

- Join an HEMA club ? As you mentioned, many of these guys look pretty sloppy (not the ones in the vids I posted though ; they mostly look pretty good to me) as far as I can tell.

or

- Join a competitive classical sport-fencing club ? I would think that the talent pool is much deeper and that it would cover much of the basis, even if the sport drifted far away from dueling. But then you don't get to fight with rapiers, although there must be alot of synergies.
 
The longsword is much, much slower. It also the nature of the thrust that it is much, much harder to see coming, judge distance to and avoid than a cut.

Watching those videos makes me appreciate how much more sophisticated and developed kendo training is compared to HEMA guys. With few exceptions, they often look sloppy, uncentered, unbalanced and uncoordinated.

Neither of these guys attack the wrist and hands much at all, which should be one of the primary targets of the rapierist against a longsword.

Neither are good at attacking on the withdrawal.

Both would benefit a lot from kendo IMO, but you'll never see these guys acknowledge that.

The longsword isn't slower, per se. its just that the business end of a longsword tends to be further away from the target. But you are right about the training. The fact is, HEMA training methodologies are still in their infancy. The first few generations of HEMAists were scholars and gamers..distinctly unathletic and far too focused in the sword as opposed to the feet. But they still blazed the trail, and with the rise of tournaments and the influx of more athletic individuals and martial artists from other arts, standards of training have increased *dramatically*. That being said, we have a long long way to go.`Most training is sub backyard ninja level. But things are improving quickly.

My training in haedong gumdo which has an established training methodology drawn from Toyama Ryu Kenjutsu gives me a very good base that most HEMAist don't have, and I employ similar techniques when training others. I relentlessly drill the basic cuts, the basic footwork and distance control. Every class without fail we will do the same basic regime of cuts and footwork for the first half of the class. This is a methology most HEMA places don`t employ unfortunately.

As for rapiers cutting the hands..i dont think the manuscripts emphasize hand cuts with the rapier. The strikes with the rapier are directed at the body. keep in mind, to my knowledge, none of the rapier manuscripts discuss rapier vs. longsword.
 
the club I train with has been quite good method wise recently, similar to my experience in karate and jujitsu in reference to class structure.
We will do slashes and thrusts, parrying drills with partners, hands on dagger and grappling drills, we've even thrown in a "kata" for lack of a better word, to warm up with.
And of course when everyone has gear we also get to spar.
 
Anybody ever get fuuuuucked up in hema??? Seems dangerous with all sorts of neck beards waving around weapons they have no business using...
 
just as much business using their weapons as kendo people do theirs
 
^^^^^^

How would one best go about learning the rapier ?

- Join an HEMA club ? As you mentioned, many of these guys look pretty sloppy (not the ones in the vids I posted though ; they mostly look pretty good to me) as far as I can tell.

or

- Join a competitive classical sport-fencing club ? I would think that the talent pool is much deeper and that it would cover much of the basis, even if the sport drifted far away from dueling. But then you don't get to fight with rapiers, although there must be alot of synergies.

Can anyone bother to answer this post ?

I have fallen in love with the rapier, thanks to this thread. I would like to give it a shot. But damn, the people in HEMA clubs look so out of shape and fat/weak.
 
Can anyone bother to answer this post ?

I have fallen in love with the rapier, thanks to this thread. I would like to give it a shot. But damn, the people in HEMA clubs look so out of shape and fat/weak.

Can`t help you unfortunately. If you are interested in the competitive aspect, Fencing is a better bet.
 
Can`t help you unfortunately. If you are interested in the competitive aspect, Fencing is a better bet.

Well I am interested in developing good fundamentals like footwork, coordination, reflexes and distance.

I think that sport fencing will help me in that. Once these skills are developed, I can go spar with HEMA people with a rapier, after a certain adaptation of course.

My point is that I am convinced that solid fencing fundamentals will help me become a rapierist.
 
I think you answered your own question. You'll be much better off learning fundamentals at the sport fencing club before embarking on HEMA IMO.
 
The other thing is that these new western reconstructive arts and training methods still have a lot of misapprehensions about the relationship between competition, sports and the purpose of learning martial arts.

They often see false dichotomies and assume that things are mutually exclusive when they aren't. Look at these HEMA guys who denigrate sport fencing and don't immediately recommend it to new, especially young people who are interested in learning any form of fencing. Look at all the English language forums on kendo and kenjutsu and iaido and the Japanese koryu. The most common question that westerns ask is he or she should learn X or Y. There's also a simmering layer of who would win in a fight, a kendo guy or kenjutsu guy.

OTOH, the reality is that you should learn both. In Japan, it is fairly uncommon for a serious kenjutsu practitioner NOT to have have at least a shodan level of understanding of kendo. In fact, if you're a college aged guy who is interested in the sword, which is about the age many of these koryu kenjutsu schools accept students, you were probably interested in the sword when you were in junior high and high school, meaning you were in the kendo club and already had your kendo shodan when you were 15-16 years old. Unless you're related to the school's master, in which case you might start younger but you're still going to belong to the school kendo club anyway.

(Not me, though. I had no interest in swords when I was a teenager and young adult and it's only because my grandfather and one of my masters forced me into it that I endured it at all. I stopped as soon as I could when I got enough rank and only recently got back into weapons in my 30s.)

Anyway, yeah, absolutely do sport training first. It only takes a year or two to get the basics - the fencing team at my alma mater was majority walk-ons and the coach took a lot of complete novices and turned them into nationally competitive (not champs, obviously) by the time they hit junior year.

Trying to do one without the other is liking learning yin without the yang.
 
The other thing is that these new western reconstructive arts and training methods still have a lot of misapprehensions about the relationship between competition, sports and the purpose of learning martial arts.

They often see false dichotomies and assume that things are mutually exclusive when they aren't. Look at these HEMA guys who denigrate sport fencing and don't immediately recommend it to new, especially young people who are interested in learning any form of fencing. Look at all the English language forums on kendo and kenjutsu and iaido and the Japanese koryu. The most common question that westerns ask is he or she should learn X or Y. There's also a simmering layer of who would win in a fight, a kendo guy or kenjutsu guy.

OTOH, the reality is that you should learn both. In Japan, it is fairly uncommon for a serious kenjutsu practitioner NOT to have have at least a shodan level of understanding of kendo. In fact, if you're a college aged guy who is interested in the sword, which is about the age many of these koryu kenjutsu schools accept students, you were probably interested in the sword when you were in junior high and high school, meaning you were in the kendo club and already had your kendo shodan when you were 15-16 years old. Unless you're related to the school's master, in which case you might start younger but you're still going to belong to the school kendo club anyway.

(Not me, though. I had no interest in swords when I was a teenager and young adult and it's only because my grandfather and one of my masters forced me into it that I endured it at all. I stopped as soon as I could when I got enough rank and only recently got back into weapons in my 30s.)

Anyway, yeah, absolutely do sport training first. It only takes a year or two to get the basics - the fencing team at my alma mater was majority walk-ons and the coach took a lot of complete novices and turned them into nationally competitive (not champs, obviously) by the time they hit junior year.

Trying to do one without the other is liking learning yin without the yang.

Thanks alot for all your insights. I am currently looking at fencing clubs in my city.

I am not sure that I'll give it a go though, as judo and thai boxing consume much of my "combat time" already, and I already have other sports activities on top of that in which I would like to invest.

Also, tbh, at 35 years-old, I am very relunctant to start a new discipline, and would rather become proficient in the disciplines where I already have a good level.

That being said, I think that fencing is a good investment, as I hear that it is still doable at an advanced age, and it is also something that I could do with my GF.
 
Update : I visited a major fencing club in my city.

I have almost decided that I want to try the Épée. The trainer there recommends it for late starters.

Also just from the noise of it I knew that the Épée feels more like a real weapon.

Not sure why people hate on fencing so much for being unrealistic. Of course the Florett has some funky rules but as far as I can tell, the Épée is almost dueling practice. First hit gets the point and you can hit everywhere. So what's the problem? You also need to really thrust to get the point, not just tap the opponent.

If I had a small sword duel coming up in 6 months I am not sure if I could find a better way to practice for it than signing up for Épée sport fencing.

I'll keep you guys posted.
 
Fencing will give you a very good base when you move into HEMA. Many of the best HEMAists have fencing backgrounds.
 
Yeah, I'm pretty eager to try it out.

One thing that I am pretty curious about is how physical it is. It looks pretty easy for the uninformed eye, but some guys there, who appear to be pretty competitive and in shape, looked really out of breath between rounds.

There happens to be a european champion florettist at the club that I might join. I think he must have gotten points taken from him only two times in like 30 minutes. Pretty impressive how quick he was. He was also doing some funky sh!t, like breaking the distance and then striking from behind his back ??? wtf.

In any case I am still going to have a look at the intermediate Épée lesson next week (I only saw the beginner's class in Épée and the intermediate class in Foil) to see what good level Épée looks like. If the talent pool is as deep in Épée as it is in Foil, I'm going to have a blast at this club.
 
So I went to have a look at the intermediate Épée sparring session and it really looks fun, with a good level. They even have a pretty old former world champion over there.

I am almost sure that I am going to sign up. BTW, I am kind of surprised at the size/thickness of the épée. It's really not as tiny IRL as it looks on videos.

Also, épée sparring is not that far away from a duel, as far as I can tell.
 
The longsword is much, much slower. It also the nature of the thrust that it is much, much harder to see coming, judge distance to and avoid than a cut.

Watching those videos makes me appreciate how much more sophisticated and developed kendo training is compared to HEMA guys. With few exceptions, they often look sloppy, uncentered, unbalanced and uncoordinated.

Neither of these guys attack the wrist and hands much at all, which should be one of the primary targets of the rapierist against a longsword.

Neither are good at attacking on the withdrawal.

Both would benefit a lot from kendo IMO, but you'll never see these guys acknowledge that.

Dude, after just observing sport fencers, like I have been doing since posting that Rapier vs Longsword vid, I have to agree with you.

Granted, the épée weighs 770 grams compared with approximately 1 Kg for a rapier and these HEMA guys have heavier gear...

But still I would give no more than 3 months to a legit sport fencer to adapt to the rapier and I think that he would be a much superior rapierist than what I have seen so far (on vids) from HEMA guys.
 
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