Who introduced wrestling to BJJ?

[dsdoubled]

Looking at the Japanese competitors in BJJ they tend to play a modern open guard focused BJJ style.
I don't see them doing any judo, most of them are too small to fight in divisions where people do throws.

What about the wrestling aspect of my post? Do they tend to find themselves more on bottom having to play the guard game or is the amateur wrestling flavor evident in their games where they'd be more attacking top-heavy grapplers? I'm not really up to speed on the current Crop of Japanese bun guys but when I think of guy from the past ie Kitaoka, Sato, Sudo, Uno etc I see more of a wrestling style. Even guys like Aoki who came from judo and Iminari who I believe was more shooto and bjj based, they worked for takedowns despite being nasty from bottom. Basically I'm asking if the shooto/catch/amateur wrestling influence is still highly visible in the game of the modern Japanese bjj competitor.

 

[yetanother]

What about the wrestling aspect of my post? Do they tend to find themselves more on bottom having to play the guard game or is the amateur wrestling flavor evident in their games where they'd be more attacking top-heavy grapplers? I'm not really up to speed on the current Crop of Japanese bun guys but when I think of guy from the past ie Kitaoka, Sato, Sudo, Uno etc I see more of a wrestling style. Even guys like Aoki who came from judo and Iminari who I believe was more shooto and bjj based, they worked for takedowns despite being nasty from bottom. Basically I'm asking if the shooto/catch/amateur wrestling influence is still highly visible in the game of the modern Japanese bjj competitor.

I can't say anything about the MMA Japansese guys, but the ones I saw in gi BJJ are having and seem to be heavily inspired by Miyao/Mendes.
Less wrestling influence than in the US and I would guess it's even less then in Brazil.
The Japanese female world champion Lady Sasa plays mostly lasso spider guard.

 

[dsdoubled]

I can't say anything about the MMA Japansese guys, but the ones I saw in gi BJJ are having and seem to be heavily inspired by Miyao/Mendes.
Less wrestling influence than in the US and I would guess it's even less then in Brazil.
The Japanese female world champion Lady Sasa plays mostly lasso spider guard.

Very interesting. Are there many Japanese players competing at or near the top of gi and no gi BJJ today?

 

[yetanother]

Koji Shibamoto (he seems to be a former judo competitor but I haven't seen him ever use it) seems to be often battling Caio Terra.
Lady Sasa is a multiple times world champion. I don't follow their grapplers that closely but the average technical level seems to be high in Japan.
Very modern jiu jitsu, didn't see them use any obsolete old school games like you sometimes see say in Poland.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

What about the wrestling aspect of my post? Do they tend to find themselves more on bottom having to play the guard game or is the amateur wrestling flavor evident in their games where they'd be more attacking top-heavy grapplers? I'm not really up to speed on the current Crop of Japanese bun guys but when I think of guy from the past ie Kitaoka, Sato, Sudo, Uno etc I see more of a wrestling style. Even guys like Aoki who came from judo and Iminari who I believe was more shooto and bjj based, they worked for takedowns despite being nasty from bottom. Basically I'm asking if the shooto/catch/amateur wrestling influence is still highly visible in the game of the modern Japanese bjj competitor.

there's obviously a strong pro wrestling culture in Japan, which seems to best explain the guys you mention. but the thing that most confuses me about Japanese culture is how there doesn't seem to be a next-generation of young fighters and bjj'ers who are modeling after the Sakuraba generation (as opposed to the USA, Brazil, and Russia which have clearly taken the mantle from their forebearers). When I think of good japanese BJJ right now I think of guys like Hashimoto and Iwasaki, who play a distinctly western-style of BJJ without any of the Japanese grappling hallmarks of athletic takedowns, leg attacks, and kimuras.

 

[dsdoubled]

there's obviously a strong pro wrestling culture in Japan, which seems to best explain the guys you mention. but the thing that most confuses me about Japanese culture is how there doesn't seem to be a next-generation of young fighters and bjj'ers who are modeling after the Sakuraba generation (as opposed to the USA, Brazil, and Russia which have clearly taken the mantle from their forebearers). When I think of good japanese BJJ right now I think of guys like Hashimoto and Iwasaki, who play a distinctly western-style of BJJ without any of the Japanese grappling hallmarks of athletic takedowns, leg attacks, and kimuras.

Yeah that's very true. Im sure a whole lot of it has to do with the fact that JMMA has still not recovered and they may never regain the Pride era prestige. Now that you mention it, its a tremendous departure. Think about all of the JMMA legends who were legit ranked fighters.
Sakuraba
Ishida
Kawajiri
Sudo
Sato
Inoue
Aoki
Uno
Yamamoto
Gomi
Sakurai
Omigawa
Gono
Okami
Iminari
Kitaoka
Hirota
Nakamura
Yoshida
Fujita
TK
etc etc etc
I cant name you 5 current Japanese fighters that would likely be competitive with the top ranked fighters in the world. Like I said, a huge departure.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Huh. That's awesome. I had no idea.

That's also why a keylock is called an Americana. Apparently it was Anderson's favorite submission that he learned from Rolls and he used it all the time.

Also, Rockson was Rickson's son who passed away. I don't think there was a Rockson in an earlier generation, you might be thinking of someone else.

 

[Kbits]

maybe the rise of no-gi also leaned BJJ towards wrestling

No gi bjj / MMA is basically the only way most adults - who've never wrestled before - can access that skillset. That - combined with ex wrestlers who are naturally more adept there - probably has.

 

[Kbits]

When I think of good japanese BJJ right now I think of guys like Hashimoto and Iwasaki, who play a distinctly western-style of BJJ without any of the Japanese grappling hallmarks of athletic takedowns, leg attacks, and kimuras.

No Pride to inspire them maybe?

 

[nefti]

From what I have read, Rolls Gracie (and maybe Rockson) where not only huge proponents of cross training but also participated in the formation of the Brazilian National Wrestling Federation and their national FS and GR teams.

Then there's Pedro Gama Filho, an early GJJ blackbelt who's family founded Universidade Gama Filho, in Brazil. This institution was largely responsible for Bjj, judo, and wrestling having many opportunities to cross paths.

Obviously the formation of MMA type events was huge. When the early wrestlers did well against BJJ guys many Brazilians knew wrestling was to be taken seriously.

Some time later, after Brazilian Top Team was running strong, American wrestler Darrel Gholar relocated to Brazil to work with BTT on takedowns. His influence was huge.

Another important point would be the mass migration of BJJ'ers to the USA. When the Gracies came to California many AMerican wrestlers and martial artists were then exposed to a whole new art.

When rolls was family champion, the head honchos were rolls and carlson.

 

[DatCutman]

That's also why a keylock is called an Americana. Apparently it was Anderson's favorite submission that he learned from Rolls and he used it all the time.

God damn it, that means my first instructor lied to me. He told me it was because everybody in america walks around in a "hands up" position because of widespread gun ownership.

 

[dsdoubled]

That's also why a keylock is called an Americana. Apparently it was Anderson's favorite submission that he learned from Rolls and he used it all the time.

Also, Rockson was Rickson's son who passed away. I don't think there was a Rockson in an earlier generation, you might be thinking of someone else.

Id like to learn more about Anderson's credentials. He is/was obviously a wealth of wrestling knowledge, but he is one of those guys with Wiki pages that are a bit whacky. Interesting story. And yes, there is a very good chance Im wrong about Rockson. I think someone helped me out below or above somewhere.

 

[spiderguarda]

For example, Sambo is supposed to be a mixture of Judo and wrestling.

BJJ originated from Judo and then the rest is history.

I came across Helio Gracie teaching some self defense and he literally to me look3d and moved like a Judo guy and its not surprising since thats what he and his brother was taught

If you look at BJJ now its a lot more close to wrestling then Judo even in Gi Id say. Question is

Who turned BJJ into wrestling oriented martial arts? OF COURSE there is leg takedowns and similarities between Judo and wrestling but it seems it has a lot more proximity to wrestling than Judo

There’s a photo of Mitsubishi Maeda in wrestling shorts doing a shoulder lock on someone where his dummy is on his knees. Maeda May have introduced some wrestling into his teaching and to his assistant instructors.

Rolls Gracie was very motivated to learn wrestling and he competed in wrestling. He got Rickson and others involved. There’s stories and photos on the Internet.

Bob Anderson was interviewed on a podcast years ago about how he went to Brazil and Rolls wound up sort of kidnapping him and he spent time with Rolls and they trained together. He supposedly taught the Americana to Rolls but if you look at old film footage, both Carlos and Helio demonstrate the technique.

Maybe Bob meant the entries he had to get to the position. But it was a podcast and it would of been interesting to have Bob demonstrate it on a dummy what he actually taught Rolls.

 

[grapplejuice]

Bob Anderson

That is awesome. California wrestling legend. All American, silver in the greco world championships and coached the US team to an Olympic title Mexico City.

 

[grapplejuice]

Id like to learn more about Anderson's credentials. He is/was obviously a wealth of wrestling knowledge, but he is one of those guys with Wiki pages that are a bit whacky. Interesting story. And yes, there is a very good chance Im wrong about Rockson. I think someone helped me out below or above somewhere.

Bob Anderson is a California / US Wrestling legend. A couple of teammates went to his training camp and came back beasts.